Dead on the side of the road!!!

[steamer]

Thinking about what outcast is saying.

 

The diagram I have shows 1 wire to ground. If I go to the gen 1 troubleshooting (upright position is infinity)!

Meaning what goes in comes out.

 

So here is what we could do: how about measuring the impedance at the switch right now, see if this points us away from the switch or not?

 

Not sure why it hasn't been remove and checked yet?

 

Hasn't been removed because it pretty much impossible to get to it with out removing half the cooling system.

[Patch]

OK Steamer..

 

What about the check list?

[Patch]

Steamer could you post a pic of the tip connector?

[steamer]

Steamer could you post a pic of the tip connector?

 

It's inside the frame behind the goose neck, you really can't see but a corner of it. Can't get a hand in there. to much of the cooling system in the way.

[Patch]

Not sure how to follow the bypass you did then? Is there a connector somewhere you have access to?

[steamer]

Not sure how to follow the bypass you did then? Is there a connector somewhere you have access to?

Yes, the connector is the only thing that is accessible. right now its hotter then hell out in the shed. I will be doing more testing tomorrow.

[steamer]

I checked for spark at the rear left plug and got nothing. I checked all fuses and change out some. I checked all the ground I could find all tight and clean. It has started several time since it first happened but for only a second or two. Last night it fired for about half a second, now it won't fire at all.

[steamer]

Good thing I don't have much hair left to rip out. So this morning I went out to try the spark tester again just to make sure It was connected right. But before I tried starting it I was looking at the relay in front of the battery box and decided pull it and clean the connector. After doing this, with the spark tester connected, I hit the start button and it started, ran for about 5 seconds and died. Tried again and no spark.

[Marcarl]

Good thing I don't have much hair left to rip out. So this morning I went out to try the spark tester again just to make sure It was connected right. But before I tried starting it I was looking at the relay in front of the battery box and decided pull it and clean the connector. After doing this, with the spark tester connected, I hit the start button and it started, ran for about 5 seconds and died. Tried again and no spark.

 

So did you try that trick again?

[Patch]

Does anyone know which relay?

 

Steamer, when we want to troubleshoot no start or whatever the case may be, we need to follow a path eliminate possibilities, check off the list!

 

Just to mention a difference, by this point I would have stopped fuel to the engine by disconnecting the pump.

My reasoning would be I've ruled it out 1st and 2nd you are flooding her with every stoke! she is soaked and so are the plugs..

 

Just a light on the spark plug is all we need, at least from this distance..

 

In Run position id there power at the coils?

[steamer]

Does anyone know which relay?

 

Steamer, when we want to troubleshoot no start or whatever the case may be, we need to follow a path eliminate possibilities, check off the list!

 

Just to mention a difference, by this point I would have stopped fuel to the engine by disconnecting the pump.

My reasoning would be I've ruled it out 1st and 2nd you are flooding her with every stoke! she is soaked and so are the plugs..

 

Just a light on the spark plug is all we need, at least from this distance..

 

In Run position id there power at the coils?

 

If you read back through my posts you will see that I tested for spark and their is no spark at the plugs. Fuel system is working as it should. For some reason that can't be explained at this time, Something is telling the ignition system to not fire or the tci is bad.

[Patch]

Hey Steamer, so at time of writing this and as far as I know the engine is still not running.

 

So Steamer the question for the coils is for direction. Because she did start briefly- yes there was voltage! That is only a snap shot!

By knowing if there is voltage before cranking, then knowing if the sparkplugs are getting the charge by looking at a testing light, then we can assume all we need is gas.

But if she runs then quits - – without turning the key to off - we check again for power at the coils and how much, 11 or 12.3 should be close to battery voltage!

 

So I can’t emphasize enough, it is only a snap shot! That could point the way!

 

I would check the starter relay following the instructions on page 8-16, #5

Likely it is what you played with when she started briefly.

This is out of order for troubleshooting but with some luck?? It also sends power across the kill switch down to the starting circuit (which sends signal to Control Module and side stand switch) - AS well lights the coils, all after the kill switch!

 

So side stepping fuel for the moment:

 

I would measure the voltage coming out of the tip switch, as she sits at the moment. Then I’d take a dowel and knock lightly with a hammer to cause it to vibrate some; then measure the voltage again. Any change amounts to knowing more. Personally I would want to also know the resistance reading at the tip switch.

 

Next because it’s easy I would measure the pickup coil. If it is weak the control module can’t switch to fire the coils.

 

Next is the start circuit not easy when you are unsure but… page 8-15

 

So Steamer we can assume as you just mentioned that the “tci” is not working, but we don’t know the reason for this, yet! It could be perfectly fine! I wouldn’t just throw one on, you run the risk of damaging the unit.

 

Along the way it doesn’t hurt to pull a connection plug apart and clean it while you're there…

[steamer]

Hey Steamer, so at time of writing this and as far as I know the engine is still not running.

 

So Steamer the question for the coils is for direction. Because she did start briefly- yes there was voltage! That is only a snap shot!

By knowing if there is voltage before cranking, then knowing if the sparkplugs are getting the charge by looking at a testing light, then we can assume all we need is gas.

But if she runs then quits - – without turning the key to off - we check again for power at the coils and how much, 11 or 12.3 should be close to battery voltage!

 

So I can’t emphasize enough, it is only a snap shot! That could point the way!

 

I would check the starter relay following the instructions on page 8-16, #5

Likely it is what you played with when she started briefly.

This is out of order for troubleshooting but with some luck?? It also sends power across the kill switch down to the starting circuit (which sends signal to Control Module and side stand switch) - AS well lights the coils, all after the kill switch!

 

So side stepping fuel for the moment:

 

I would measure the voltage coming out of the tip switch, as she sits at the moment. Then I’d take a dowel and knock lightly with a hammer to cause it to vibrate some; then measure the voltage again. Any change amounts to knowing more. Personally I would want to also know the resistance reading at the tip switch.

 

Next because it’s easy I would measure the pickup coil. If it is weak the control module can’t switch to fire the coils.

 

Next is the start circuit not easy when you are unsure but… page 8-15

 

So Steamer we can assume as you just mentioned that the “tci” is not working, but we don’t know the reason for this, yet! It could be perfectly fine! I wouldn’t just throw one on, you run the risk of damaging the unit.

 

Along the way it doesn’t hurt to pull a connection plug apart and clean it while you're there…

and

Steve, thank you for all your help. Between you and everyone else, you have given me many things to test and check. I am also working with BongBob over the phone. I have cleaned several connections I found covered in grease and road grim. I tested the pickup coil and came up with 215 ohms. I tested the front right coil, ( the only one I can get to) no voltage, this seems to be leading us back to the starter system relay. I ordered a good used relay on ebay. Be here in a couple of days. I tested the tip switch, I believe it was 68 ohms. This one has me and Bongo scratching our heads. I checked the condition of the handle bar kill switch looked good. One other thing, when trying to start the motor the check engine light flashes continuously. Not sure what this means if anything.

[steamer]

I also pulled tci and checked the plugs, all were clean.

[Patch]

Well if you have no voltage or reduce voltage at the coils, the Starter Solenoid is the likely cause, could also have been resistance at the kill or in the Red/Black wire to the coils, according to the wiring diagram.

Best to test before changing parts or it can get pretty expensive.

Because she started once or twice but not running strong, I was curious about juice at the coils!

Many a time I've found on old bikes that start warm but not cold or damp; usually the cause is low voltage at the coils.

 

Good!

[baylensman]

I had a similar issue on my 86' After much trouble shooting and travel to different bike shops, I found that the kick stand switch was not aligned properly with the tab on the kick stand. so it would test okay, but then wouldn't allow the system to ignite. Have you tried to start and run while holding the clutch in? On some of them I know you can idle it with the stand down and in neutral. but others won't unless the clutch is depressed also, and yet more won't start at all with the stand down.

[bongobobny]

Steamer's bike is triked, Baylensman, so the kickstand switch is non-existent, but good thought!

 

What bothers me is the fact that he did not see any voltage on the coils with the key on. 12 volts should be there at all times directly through the Red and Black wire that comes from the kill switch. That 12 volts are obviously there as the bike cranks all the time regardless, which would also eliminate the starter solenoid as being bad.

 

Unfortunately, Steamer and Rockin Robin are about two hours away from here so it's kind of hard to just pop on over to help him. Right now I have given him a spot to look for the 12 volts on the "E" connector as at that connector the Red and Black wire departs the main harness and heads for the coils. What is strange is yesterday the bike did start and run for about 5 seconds for him and died. All of the time his engine warning light is pulsing rapidly which is a clue but we haven't figured out what it means. According to Steamer, it is a rapid flashing, much faster than what an error code would look like, and it only does it when cranking the bike over. Very strange!

 

I am going to try to get to my tip-over switch and pull the connector off and see if mine will still start, and also read the resistance across the connector. Steamer said he was seeing around 60 ohms across it which seems strange to me...

[Flyinfool]

You already identified a fault. might as well keep chasing what you know to be an issue. No power on the red/black wire at the coils. The red black wire gets its power thru the kill switch Via the red/white wire. The red/black wire is not powered by the Starter relay, the red black wire is providing power TO the starter relay.

I would check the kill switch to see if there is power on the red white wire at all times when the ignition is on. Cycling the kill switch should then cycle power to the red/black wire. And since it is at the other end of the red/black wire the power at that one coil that you can get to should also cycle with the kill switch. You may have bad or dirty contacts in the kill switch. Once we know if the kill switch is good, that will tell us which direction to head from there for additional testing.

[bongobobny]

OK, I just got back in after pulling my tank and right side neck cover to access the connector for the tip-over switch and found that with the switch unplugged my bike will not start! I measured the resistance across my switch and came up with 21.4K ohms, so kudos to Outcast for knowing something we did not know!! On the 1st gen model it was a matter of the Black/White wire either seeing ground or open, and also part of the ignition kill circuit did the same thing if you tried to put it in gear and let the clutch out with the kickstand down! On the 2nd Gen, only the tip-over is on that circuit.

 

Now, the problem being Steamer is seeing around 60K ohms, not the 22K ohms I am seeing. Now, it is two different meters so I would expect some difference, mine being a cheap $5 Harbor Freight one, but I'm thinking his meter is probably pretty close as he did see around 200 ohms on his pickup coil. I'll have to find some resistors I may have left over from my electronic days and see how close mine is on the 200K scale...

 

As of this morning, Steamer reported that he is seeing around 10 volts on his coil and it did start a couple of times for about 5 seconds and then died, and now his starter solenoid may have given up the ghost as now the starter motor is dead. His battery is showing a full charge...

[Patch]

Wow all on the same page;)

 

Absolutely correct flynnfool there could be a problem or more specifically a corroded wire/connection after the kill to the coils! Likely why bongo is having him test that lead to the coils, if I understood right. We assume there is voltage because the starter circuit is triggering the fuel pump.

However I assumed the solenoid was tested so a fail is a fail.

 

Baylensman makes a valid point as well.

 

Not sure I would allow the engine light to distract me from simply ruling in or out of modules along the way.

 

Bongo, personally I am very curious about the voltage drop at the tip switch?

 

"just in";) "I measured the resistance across my switch and came up with 21.4K ohms," I can't see them being that different but perhaps check the battery. Did Steamer not try to vibrate his tip switch?? and remeasure again??hmm

You can use a dimmer switch to test....

[Patch]

Bummer the warning light is off the starter circuit. Well it will need testing

 

Correction Control unit..

[Patch]

Knowing this now, I would (if it were me), continue to rule the modules in or out and not go straight to the Control box.

Like I mentioned yesterday that could just blow another box.

Something must of triggered this fail.

 

So we assume the tip switch stayed in play.

We know voltage is 10v at the coils.

We know the starter circuit was working.

And we know the pickup coil is good.

 

Not sure what causes the control to trigger the engine light, could be a combination of things? Sticking to a plan is all I know for trouble shooting.

[Patch]

Flinfool "The red/black wire is not powered by the Starter relay"

 

F**ck me how stupid of me! Of course I just reread your post thinking I missed something, jeepers that was really dumb of me.

[steamer]

OK, I just got back in after pulling my tank and right side neck cover to access the connector for the tip-over switch and found that with the switch unplugged my bike will not start! I measured the resistance across my switch and came up with 21.4K ohms, so kudos to Outcast for knowing something we did not know!! On the 1st gen model it was a matter of the Black/White wire either seeing ground or open, and also part of the ignition kill circuit did the same thing if you tried to put it in gear and let the clutch out with the kickstand down! On the 2nd Gen, only the tip-over is on that circuit.

 

Now, the problem being Steamer is seeing around 60K ohms, not the 22K ohms I am seeing. Now, it is two different meters so I would expect some difference, mine being a cheap $5 Harbor Freight one, but I'm thinking his meter is probably pretty close as he did see around 200 ohms on his pickup coil. I'll have to find some resistors I may have left over from my electronic days and see how close mine is on the 200K scale...

 

As of this morning, Steamer reported that he is seeing around 10 volts on his coil and it did start a couple of times for about 5 seconds and then died, and now his starter solenoid may have given up the ghost as now the starter motor is dead. His battery is showing a full charge...

.

 

Starter solenoid is ok, I screwed up and somehow bumped the switch on the batt. charger from 12v to 6v and lost most of the charge in the battery. Didn't know that could happen. Learned something new. While I was waiting for the battery to charge, I figured it was a good to get some General maintenance out of the way so I changed the plugs and fuel filter. They were about 8000 miles over due. After I got it all back together I tried starting it and I'm right back to no spark, no start. Don't know what was different from this morning to now. Except about 15 degrees.

[Patch]

Good that you changed sparks..

 

It is best to just stick to what we do and don't know for the moment.

 

10v to 0v so intermittent. You should measure the resistance from through the kill switch all the way to the coils as was stated this morning. With the key off go to the fuse box with one lead then to the positive post of the coil and measure. After you note the reading then flip the kill a couple of times, read again and let us know. If there is trouble then we can see it and patch it. But without the tip switch we can't fire the coils because the control module is grounded and out of play.

 

We still suspect the tip switch.

 

It is possible to get some bleed enough to fire, but we call it a slow roll, not a running engine!