Dead on the side of the road!!!

[Marcarl]

Just because we are not posting, doesn't mean we're not thinking.

[steamer]

Just because we are not posting, doesn't mean we're not thinking.

 

I know. I can smell it all the way down here, lol, thanks Carl.

[bongobobny]

OK Steamer, just testing for understanding (TFU). You do know that it is normal with the key on for the fuel pump to only run for a couple of seconds and then shut off until the bike is running?? It's a safety feature they've had since the 1st gen model...

 

I would start with a spark tester to see if you have spark at all when cranking over. There are two sparks per cycle on ours, 1 for ignition, and a second at 180 degrees to burn off any leftover vapors. You should be able to draw at least a 0.100" spark. The testers are available at Auto Zone, Advanced, etc.

 

I will ponder the wiring diagram after church. As far as the tip over sensor, seeing as you have a trike I would just jumper the switch...

[steamer]

OK Steamer, just testing for understanding (TFU). You do know that it is normal with the key on for the fuel pump to only run for a couple of seconds and then shut off until the bike is running?? It's a safety feature they've had since the 1st gen model...

 

I would start with a spark tester to see if you have spark at all when cranking over. There are two sparks per cycle on ours, 1 for ignition, and a second at 180 degrees to burn off any leftover vapors. You should be able to draw at least a 0.100" spark. The testers are available at Auto Zone, Advanced, etc.

 

I will ponder the wiring diagram after church. As far as the tip over sensor, seeing as you have a trike I would just jumper the switch...

 

I disconnected the fuel line at the carbs and turned the key on then hit the kill switch and the pump pumped gas out. So the carbs are full of gas. So the gas problem is eliminated. has to be spark or a safety switch. I disconnected the tip over switch and it will still turn over but still not start. I'm leaving for work soon, will have to wait till morning to work on it. I going to try bypassing the tip over switch and see if that works. Funny thing, after disconnecting the tip over switch and cleaning with electric cleaner then reconnected it, it fire for half of a second. Maybe on to something?

[Freebird]

I haven't looked at the wiring diagram but are you sure that disconnecting the tip over switch means that it is good? I would assume that it should be in a normally closed position so disconnecting it would not prove that it is bad. If that is the case, you would need to jumper it out, not disconnect it.

[Marcarl]

You might try to replace the fuse that deals with this circuit, don't just look at it or test it, replace it.

[bongobobny]

Yup! What Don said! The problem being, the Service manual does not even mention the tip-over switch! It only appears on the schematic! I have always thought it was normally closed and open when the bike tips over, but I could be wrong!

 

Here's something to look at for you! You said you hit a nasty bump. Look in the area where the fuel pump and filter are, and in the center hooked onto a tab with a rubber hanger is your starting circuit cut off relay. Make sure it is still suspended on that hook. Here's what can happen, it happened to me and others. The relay falls down and rests on the engine. Eventually, the heat from the engine melts the plastic case and causes a ground where a ground isn't supposed to be. This can cause all sorts of electrical symptoms to include not starting! With mine, once heated up I had autostart (the starter was always on) and 2 red indicator lights for low oil level and overheating came on!

 

Getting back to the tip-over, try starting with it disconnected, and then try with the switch jumpered. If the switch is the problem one way will work and not the other way...

[steamer]

I haven't looked at the wiring diagram but are you sure that disconnecting the tip over switch means that it is good? I would assume that it should be in a normally closed position so disconnecting it would not prove that it is bad. If that is the case, you would need to jumper it out, not disconnect it.

 

I disconnected it to see if it would make a difference. No change, so now I will jumper it and see what happens.

[djh3]

Pokin around the WD there is a fuse "#23 Ignition" That leads back to the "igniter" On the the ECU It shows a blk/white wire called (#25)"emergency stop". Simple on off switch circuit to ground.

[Flyinfool]

Sounds like it may be time to play LED wars.

Connect some LEDs to the circuits that can cause an issue and you will see the led flicker whenever that circuit is malfunctioning. Sometimes that is the only way to catch an intermittent issue.

 

But this sounds like more of a continuous issue now.

You need to start checking for power where there should be power and ground where there should be a ground. You can do the check for spark as a start to verify the it is an electrical issue you are chasing.

Your assumption that the grounds are good because the starter spins good is in error. The starter has its own ground path and everything else uses another ground path thru another wire. Somewhere near the battery is another black wire that is smaller than the one for the starter, that wire has a one pin connector on it. You will want to verify that ground. You will have to verify the the TCI has both good power and a good ground.

[djh3]

Sounds like it may be time to play LED wars.

Connect some LEDs to the circuits that can cause an issue and you will see the led flicker whenever that circuit is malfunctioning. Sometimes that is the only way to catch an intermittent issue.

 

But this sounds like more of a continuous issue now.

You need to start checking for power where there should be power and ground where there should be a ground. You can do the check for spark as a start to verify the it is an electrical issue you are chasing.

Your assumption that the grounds are good because the starter spins good is in error. The starter has its own ground path and everything else uses another ground path thru another wire. Somewhere near the battery is another black wire that is smaller than the one for the starter, that wire has a one pin connector on it. You will want to verify that ground. You will have to verify the the TCI has both good power and a good ground.

 

+1 On the ground. I would say better than 70% of the stuff we see and teach our guys that something works 1/2 azz is a ground issue. Just think back to the late 70-mid 80 chevy going down the road with a dim headlight. Most of the time its a ground issue. Circuits will find a ground back if theirs is bad, but it is not enough to work properly.

[Patch]

To add to the confusion, tomorrow I will peek at the schematics as well.

 

So a thought: as you move through the harness and move or change anything, I - would have the high tension wire hook to either a lead to spark plug tester "flashing light" or an old "timing light"

With every try I would want to see it flash. Anytime you may change something then try to start, that flash or lack of is important let us know!

 

Next my opinion: you need to test the tip switch- because it doesn't get normal use we don't know its position, it may or may not be stuck! Take it off if you can and put the leads to it and rotate;)

This also means that every test also has to include "with jumper & without" for myself I would want to know if the switch goes to ground or is it suppose to be hot!

 

Maybe others will comment on this: I would think that if it goes to ground when tipped you could close the kill and measure for continuity whit the tip switch off and tilted..

 

There are inexpensive circuit testers that tell you at a glance if it's a ground or positive (key on) for relay checks.

 

Patch

[Patch]

"Maybe others will comment on this: I would think that if it goes to ground when tipped you could close the kill and measure for continuity whit the tip switch off and tilted.."

 

Actually it would tell you if it was grounded while still on so long at the kill switch is in kill possition

[steamer]

Yup! What Don said! The problem being, the Service manual does not even mention the tip-over switch! It only appears on the schematic! I have always thought it was normally closed and open when the bike tips over, but I could be wrong!

 

Here's something to look at for you! You said you hit a nasty bump. Look in the area where the fuel pump and filter are, and in the center hooked onto a tab with a rubber hanger is your starting circuit cut off relay. Make sure it is still suspended on that hook. Here's what can happen, it happened to me and others. The relay falls down and rests on the engine. Eventually, the heat from the engine melts the plastic case and causes a ground where a ground isn't supposed to be. This can cause all sorts of electrical symptoms to include not starting! With mine, once heated up I had autostart (the starter was always on) and 2 red indicator lights for low oil level and overheating came on!

 

Getting back to the tip-over, try starting with it disconnected, and then try with the switch jumpered. If the switch is the problem one way will work and not the other way...

 

I checked for the dangling relay and it is attached as it should be. I didn't hit the pot hole, I swerved hard to the right to avoid it. Maybe enough g force to activate the tip over? I don't see how that could happen, but who knows.

[Marcarl]

This is going to be something simple and stupid. Maybe it's the kill switch.

[steamer]

This is going to be something simple and stupid. Maybe it's the kill switch.

 

If it was the kill switch the started would not turn over. Simple and stupid would be nice, if only I can find it.

[steamer]

OK, so this is what I've eliminated. Fuel to carbs no problem pumps working, tip over switch, I jumped it and still not firing, ignition switch, change it out to the old one. Everything on the bike works, just no spark. I'm thinking it is the igniter/tci or what ever they call it. If you got anything please share.

[bongobobny]

Well, there is quite the checklist go through from here, Bob. Unfortunately, we are leaving for the afternoon so I am not available on the phone for you. I do have a spare untested TCI you are welcome to borrow or keep if needed. I'm a little hesitant to blame the TCI as they are not a high fatality device on the 2nd Gen.

 

If the ignition fuse were bad the starter would never turn over so scratch that...

 

Maybe an issue with the pickup coil??

[Patch]

Hey there Steamer

 

I just found some time, think I'm caught up on the posts. So you mention that in ON position everything works as expect but NO juice to the plus.

Seems an obvious question to ask but.. Key on you have measured 12 volts at the coils?

 

I'm just beginning the read of the wiring dia....

[Patch]

Emergency stop sensor is to ground, Black wire

 

So do not jumper wire (unplug and leave it for now)

[Marcarl]

Did you replace the fuse?

[Patch]

Emergency stop sensor is to ground, Black wire

 

So do not jumper

** also here’s a note, the diagram shows 1 wire to ground; this suggests that the igniter unit only needs a ground path to shout down. This can be done with one wire to Tip Switch. If however you have a 2 wire Tip Switch – then you would short or jumper the 2 together to complete the Run position!

 

It is important to know for certain: Key & Kill in run position there is power to the coils - Power at the Coils. Yes NO

 

You are correct about the kill switch it goes to the Starter Circuit, one side to Starter Relay the other side to Fuel Pump. This circuit controls both, But Kill also sends power to the coils – then the Igniter switches through ground!

 

Next to know then is the Pickup Coil resistance: Remove the Pickup Coil connector and measure the resistance at the coil Red tester lead to the male pin below the indentation of the connector or Grey Yellow wire pin, Black tester lead to the other male pin or Black wire pin- reading should be 189 to 231 ohms

 

Let us know what you find

[OutKast]

I disconnected the fuel line at the carbs and turned the key on then hit the kill switch and the pump pumped gas out. So the carbs are full of gas. So the gas problem is eliminated. has to be spark or a safety switch. I disconnected the tip over switch and it will still turn over but still not start. I'm leaving for work soon, will have to wait till morning to work on it. I going to try bypassing the tip over switch and see if that works. Funny thing, after disconnecting the tip over switch and cleaning with electric cleaner then reconnected it, it fire for half of a second. Maybe on to something?

 

 

You CANNOT bypass the tip over switch. There is a inline resistor that passes only 5v (If I remember correcly) back to the starter relay. If you send back 0v or 12v, the starter relay will not enable the ignition. They do this so you cannot bypass this switch. Simply check for continuity through the switch and plug it back up.

 

I think I found this out by checking voltage on the outlet side of the switch to see if the switch was making. I think you will find on the diagram it is a separate circuit, and not inline with the other safety switches.

 

There is a plug to this under the trim pieces that cover the tank mounting, on the right side I think. Easiest place to get to to check.

Edited June 18, 2018 by OutKast

[steamer]

Emergency stop sensor is to ground, Black wire

 

So do not jumper

** also here’s a note, the diagram shows 1 wire to ground; this suggests that the igniter unit only needs a ground path to shout down. This can be done with one wire to Tip Switch. If however you have a 2 wire Tip Switch – then you would short or jumper the 2 together to complete the Run position!

 

It is important to know for certain: Key & Kill in run position there is power to the coils - Power at the Coils. Yes NO

 

You are correct about the kill switch it goes to the Starter Circuit, one side to Starter Relay the other side to Fuel Pump. This circuit controls both, But Kill also sends power to the coils – then the Igniter switches through ground!

 

Next to know then is the Pickup Coil resistance: Remove the Pickup Coil connector and measure the resistance at the coil Red tester lead to the male pin below the indentation of the connector or Grey Yellow wire pin, Black tester lead to the other male pin or Black wire pin- reading should be 189 to 231 ohms

 

Let us know what you find

 

Where do I find the pickup coil connector?

[Patch]

Thinking about what outcast is saying.

 

The diagram I have shows 1 wire to ground. If I go to the gen 1 troubleshooting (upright position is infinity)!

Meaning what goes in comes out.

 

So here is what we could do: how about measuring the impedance at the switch right now, see if this points us away from the switch or not?

 

Not sure why it hasn't been remove and checked yet?