Dead on the side of the road!!!

[Patch]

How can you be lonely Carl, your bike is running and you are always in the arms of your Girl.

[steamer]

Your not helping:doh:

[Patch]

Well something changed Steamer. So you have your old tip switch hooked up?

[Marcarl]

How can you be lonely Carl, your bike is running and you are always in the arms of your Girl.

 

Your not helping:doh:

 

Ya, I know it's a burden I have to live with, when my favourite is not within reach there are a dozen others who think they have rights,, it's not easy being me, but, somebody's got t do it.

[steamer]

Well something changed Steamer. So you have your old tip switch hooked up?

 

Yes, after it not starting on the new switch I hooked up the old switch. That's the only thing I did.

[Patch]

Ya, I know it's a burden I have to live with, when my favourite is not within reach there are a dozen others who think they have rights,, it's not easy being me, but, somebody's got t do it.

 

Carl are you telling me you are a French Canadian? Because you know we learn to live with that burden at a very young age..LOL

Edited June 26, 2018 by Patch

[Patch]

Yes, after it not starting on the new switch I hooked up the old switch. That's the only thing I did.

 

 

Hmm? need a minute I still laughing at the last couple of minutes

[Patch]

When Carl mentioned the connections for the side stand, any chance you fiddled with that wiring?

 

So before anything else is the measured voltage at the coils? With that we need to know the battery voltage key on.

 

I'm not sure if you are up for it but.. Would you be willing to measure the tip switch that you are presently using?

 

Obviously we know for the moment that the control module is good, at the moment it is switching the coils, also the fuel pump is working meaning the starting circuit is also good!

[Marcarl]

Without getting into the ohms stuff, I'll leave that for that know, I kind of suspect a loose wire in a connector, what I mean is that the end of the wire is not solidly crimped onto the wire, could be right at the fuse box maybe.

 

And NO! I'm not French Canadian, I'm a Canadian of Dutch decent, much more sot after.

[steamer]

I did not touch anything else. after testing the new switch to make sure if worked, I hooked it up and tried to start it. It cranked and cranked but did not start. i tried twice with no luck. I had to leave if for several hours. When I got back I decided to check for power at the coil, I had 11.8v, so I turned on the key and hit the starter expecting it to do what it as done before, start and die. Not this time, it kept running. Everytime it started and died before I didn't get any voltage at the coil right after it quit, but it would come back after sitting for a while. It's like something is resetting its self, then when I try to start it, something tell the tci something is wrong, shut down.

[Patch]

Not sure I agree, ok I am sure.. If the switch ohms have changed for whatever the reason, we can stop looking and rule it out!

 

Well likely some French in you somewhere, really no other explanation.

[steamer]

Now that its running I tested the tip switch again, no difference.

[Patch]

I did not touch anything else. after testing the new switch to make sure if worked, I hooked it up and tried to start it. It cranked and cranked but did not start. i tried twice with no luck. I had to leave if for several hours. When I got back I decided to check for power at the coil, I had 11.8v, so I turned on the key and hit the starter expecting it to do what it as done before, start and die. Not this time, it kept running. Everytime it started and died before I didn't get any voltage at the coil right after it quit, but it would come back after sitting for a while. It's like something is resetting its self, then when I try to start it, something tell the tci something is wrong, shut down.

 

Ok I just saw you tested the tip and the same reading, nice to see the voltage up but makes us wonder why? So I need to think a bit because there must be a common that I am missing.

 

The tip should stop the switch of the coils and other things but not the voltage drop. So red test lead to coil, black lead to battery or ground,,,,hmmm

[Flyinfool]

I did not touch anything else. after testing the new switch to make sure if worked, I hooked it up and tried to start it. It cranked and cranked but did not start. i tried twice with no luck. I had to leave if for several hours. When I got back I decided to check for power at the coil, I had 11.8v, so I turned on the key and hit the starter expecting it to do what it as done before, start and die. Not this time, it kept running. Everytime it started and died before I didn't get any voltage at the coil right after it quit, but it would come back after sitting for a while. It's like something is resetting its self, then when I try to start it, something tell the tci something is wrong, shut down.

 

It looks like you may have the dreaded electrical intermittent.

 

Unfortunately, as long as it is running there is no way to find the fault.

The best you can do is to start it up and then start jiggling wires till you find the one that kills it.

[steamer]

It looks like you may have the dreaded electrical intermittent.

 

Unfortunately, as long as it is running there is no way to find the fault.

The best you can do is to start it up and then start jiggling wires till you find the one that kills it.

 

If it were a lose connection or wire it wouldn't reset its self over time. I'm thinking solenoid.

[Flyinfool]

It could be a temperature sensitive component in a module. It could be a loose connection that is getting hot and when it gets hot and expands it breaks the connection until it cools off. The bad part is that it is nearly impossible to find it when it is running perfectly. You have to catch it in the act. You have to find the way to make it malfunction so that you can find where the fault is.

[Patch]

Hey Steamer

 

True what flyinfool suggests about a possible bad connection. for one it can and often will, reduce current (current being the heat or amps) or in this case measured voltage. Meaning when checking for 12V and you read 10ish there is usually heat from that resistance. For example a warm wire can show signs of discoloration or shrinking with ripples or connector may have some corrosion and be warm on one side or be loose enough that heat will expand the female and break or reduce contact, then cool and work fine.

 

For the moment and in my reasoning, I believe the control module is functioning because the bike is firing! That module receives the signal from the pickup coil then switchs via ground.

Is the engine light off?

 

The tip switch prevents the above from happening by opening or closing a path designers choice.

It does not provide voltage to the coils.

 

If you have alligator clips for your tester, would you please keep the red to positive side of coil and black to negative side of battery.

 

Then cycle your switches- key, kill wiring connections for side stand.

 

Keep an eye on the reading it needs to stay near battery voltage 12ish keep going unless it drops then check battery voltage and compare.

 

After those are done move on and repeat but with the harness bundle.

I would also open the bar housing for the kill and starter switch, give all that a good close look over, see any signs of discoloring or grime build up. Might as well give it a spay shot of cleaning fluid while its exposed.

 

If per chance you find any voltage drop, then note the area, again measure the battery voltage and compare because that could be a win for us. Keep a sharp eye on the meeter

 

I still don't understand the ohms reading for the tip....hmm

 

I don't see any reason for concern at the moment for the solenoid, it's real just a big single purpose relay operated switch. Its about amperage.

 

At the end and if I forget toooo, you will need to freshen your oil as the fuel will have rendered it worthless

[Patch]

Bongo and Steve, I was going through old posts and came across one by LilBeaver, 3-30-12 pg 25, second gen tech section, " Engine dies when shifting, cranks for a long time before starting". He also suspected the tip switch and tested it same as us and came up with 61 ohms. He never did remove the switch but did change the ignitor and ignition switch, this seems to have fixed the problem. Similar problem but his was intermittent. So now we have 2 tip switches that read 61 and 2 that read 21???? Both 61 reading on bikes with starting problems!

 

I had some time tonight without distraction so I refreshed and studied up.

 

I completely missed the above post, sorry.

 

So I am stuck on this because, when I was shown troubleshooting it was drilled into me to stay focused and, to not skip over a suspect. Prove it good, bad or, tie it in!

 

Also Steamer I think it a plus that you dug that info up for us, proves how you are really in the game!

 

With the above quote we see that there exist a common thread. So logic tells Bongo and I although I am more of a wrench type guy, we and certainly me, can not look past the tip switch at coils that have power but aren't firing!

 

Not wanting to make this too long some background: Measuring the voltage at the coils is before igniter/cont module and is voltage to the primary positive side, so we expect battery voltage! Then the coil is grounded (completing the circuit) through the igniter to ground: that is the igniter part of the control module. The same module has other duties and the one that has at least me stumped is - logic says that if the safety emergency/tip switch opens the circuit, the "igniter" can not path to ground!

If it can as is now the case (engine running), then the tip switch position must have changed?! So if you disconnected the tip then the engine should not fire. If it does then the igniter safety circuit is fried, and will fail permanently soonish.

 

Let me make some sense of what I'm trying to say. In at least two cases we know 21ohms has been measured on running bikes. We also see now that 61 ohms produced fail starts and no run or intermittent problems!

 

Also we see that the new to you switch is reading 61 ohms at least after shipping; that to me isn't that hard to believe. What we don't know is as the book says, when tipped to 50* does it read 0000 you didn't mention that it was tested at angle.

 

Because the bike is running those of us that have had to chase intermittent troubles.... Shouldn't find it hard to ask that a new reading of the installed tip is in order. Listen, there's a lot of harness and connectors to go through that may not need all that testing???

 

As for the igniter/control module, above he changed "both" and cured the problem, perhaps in his case that was necessary. I can't and don't know why with the info we have now, that the igniter is bad?!

 

Conclusion form here 12.3 key on at coils, things are working correctly, maybe only at the moment. 13V engine running at the coils seems good to me. If you have a little less that's old wiring, if you are around 10V while output is 12 or 13 ish then its an old corroded - wire, circuit or connector and really not a hard fix!

 

I hope this helps clear up some of what must seem like black magic but really its just about staying focused.

 

Patch

[bongobobny]

I hate it when things just fix themselves...

[Patch]

Well very much Bongo.

 

This certainly temps the shortcut leading to reinstalling the plastics; not hard to understand that point of view.

 

What would drive me crazy is not knowing why, or where I might be the next time, should it re happen.

[steamer]

So now I go from doing everything I can to make it run to Trying to make it quit running so I can figure out why it wouldn't start to begin with.

 

I had to do a bunch of running today, so I didn't get to do much with it. I did hook up the new tip switch to see what would happen and yep it ran just fine. Bongo, I also tested the resistor you sent, to check my meter, I got 33k ohms.

Thanks for the resistor, but I guess I don't need to bypass the switch. I am going to pull the kick stand switch and clean it. I think I will check the throttle position sensor also. Might as well check and clean everything I can.

[Patch]

I got bits of post 172

 

Anyways shows that not fully resolving problems that creep up, just leads to more problems.

[steamer]

I wish I could tell you I found the problem, but I can't. Did I find something to make it run again? Don't know. What I can tell you is if it happens again, I can tell you what it probably isn't. I got it all back together and took it for a very short ride with no problem. I honestly think it runs better now then before. Probably the new plugs. Anyway I guess time will tell. Thanks to everyone here who racked their brains to try and help me. I can only hope to return the favor down the road. Hopefully for your sake not on the side of the road.

[Patch]

It is good news that you are able to get back to riding.

Just think how well you know the systems now. Certainly not wasted time..

[steamer]

Soooo, here we go again! Only this time it's something different. The bike has been running great, until a couple of days ago when we stopped for gas and when I hit the start button all I got was clicking. Dead battery! Got a jump and made the last 8 miles to home. So I did a bunch of research here on VR, and tested the stator to find a dead lead. Order a new stator, removed the old one to find a very toasty winding. Now just waiting for parts. Guess we weren't meant to ride this year. Thanks to all you poor members that had to go through this before me and wrote all the great info so the rest of us knew what to look for. This is a great family. Now, would anyone like to come over and put my trike back together? lol.