Finding/defining/debating the difference between Torque and Horsepower..

[cowpuc]

While preparing to test a regulator on my Yamaha 1st Gen Venture, my friend and brother VideoArizona asked me to share my opinion of the difference between Torque and Horse Power and how those differences apply in the real world of motorcycles. Here is video clip of what my pea brained, untrained, strickly amature (I was told that I am strickly an "Amature" recently and guess what,,, I actually agree and LIKE that!!!) version of the difference between Torque and Horse Power came up with!! Feel free to jump in here with your own idea's and concepts!!

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

Hp = (Torque x rpm) / 5252

 

On a dyno chart, "5252" is a crucial point and is a given constant of where the HP curve will always cross over and rise above the torque curve.

 

[AABBCC]

Engineers design and tune the final drive and transmission gearing around the engine torque, horsepower, rpm, overall gross weight, tire size etc, to deliver said power across a power band that's based on the motorcycles intended use.

 

 

Torque and Horsepower are just part of the numbers in such a "debate" and mean nothing on their own.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque

Edited June 3, 2018 by AABBCC

[American]

Quote from Enzo Ferrari, Carroll Shelby and Jay Leno

"Horsepower sells cars, Torque wins races"

[bongobobny]

Horsepower is the strength, torque is the oomph...

[American]

 

I am thinking Enzo and Carroll knew a whole lot more then any of us do and even Jay Leno who has the money to have a huge car collection.

[American]

This is what the 2018 Star Venture thread over at the Victory Owners Group turned into as Half_Crazy attacked the Star Venture like he attacks all bikes that have not had aftermarket cams, exhaust, intakes and tuners installed on them.

 

I am a little disappointed that cowpuc has drug that argument over here into this forum.

 

If you want a drag bike then a touring bike is the wrong bike for you period.

 

I would rather have a lot of low end torque in a touring bike like this 2018 Star Venture than a lot of high end horsepower that I have to keep down shifting to keep the RPM's high to find the power band and riding around sounding like a bumble bee all day.

[AABBCC]

"If you're not First, you're Last" - Abraham Lincoln

[AABBCC]

If you want a drag bike then a touring bike is the wrong bike for you period.

 

It's cool. It's only money. Perhaps they can buy more than one type of motorcycle. If they can only buy one type, they could shop around and/or seek out advice. Perhaps a sport touring bike like the FJR1300 could satisfy. No matter, it's on them, they have to live with it.

Edited June 3, 2018 by AABBCC

[American]

I tried to watch your video but I just had to stop, lets make this short and sweet:

 

[American]

Here is a good article on RPM.

 

https://www.quora.com/What-allows-formula-one-engines-to-red-line-high-17-000+-rpm-compared-to-that-of-production-street-cars-8-000-rpm

 

The initial Renault F1 V6 of 1984 had an extremely large bore of 86 mm and short stroke of 42.8 mm (S/B ratio of 0,5), and thus its revs were not limited by its MPS and piston acceleration, but by its valvetrain. In 1986, Renault introduced the pneumatic valve return system, replacing the valve springs by nitrogen compressed at 200 bars. From then on, the revs of the F1 engines could climb above 12,000 rpm while their S/B ratio was progressively reduced to 0.41 in 2006 V8s with 98 mm bore and 39.75 mm stroke. These were the engines reaching up to 20,000 rpm at a MPS of 26.5 m/s.

 

Here is Cosworth turning 20,000 RPM on a dyno.

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by American

[American]

"If you're not First, you're Last" - Abraham Lincoln

 

I thought that was Ricky Bobby!

[American]

If my Leno video was to long here is an even shorter video:

 

[American]

Here is a less confusing explanation of Torque and Horsepower than the cowpuc video.

 

[American]

OK, I finished watching your video and you way over simplified the effect of horsepower to the point that you failed to mention at the end that in order to use that horsepower you built you will have to down shift and get those RPM's up or you are dead in the water.

 

I know you are still trying to justify your high RPM V-4 engine over the low RPM V-Twin that Yamaha decided to go with, but reviews have been pretty good on the power delivery of the 113 V-Twin with reviews stating that there is not much need to drop down a gear to pass because of the torque of this 113 engine.

 

To many people like to use a dyno graph to push horsepower over torque but when all is said and done horsepower is still just a product of torque, it is a measurement of work done to move said object. What these people do is they will point at the graph where the torque curve starts its downward path, that does not mean torque is no more, and they point at horsepower that continues to climb a little longer before it starts to drop off.

 

Without torque there is no horsepower. Once torque falls off so far horsepower starts to follow torque and fall off as well because once you get to the point of not enough force to move said object horsepower can no longer continue to climb as horsepower is a measurement of work. Once the work drops to a certain point the horsepower starts to drop with it. Now many dyno graphs can't show this because of the limitation of RPM's of the engine meaning the engine runs out of RPM's before the horsepower starts to drop and follow the lose of force.

 

Fords used to have an advantage over Chevrolet at certain race tracks that favored torque in a certain RPM range coming out of the corners and the Fords would spank the Chevrolets on those tracks every race, currently in Pro Stock drag racing the NHRA limited the RPM's the engines could turn, this hurt the Mopar's and Ford's but it favors the Chevrolets as the Ford and Mopar engines need more RPM's to make their power where as the Chevrolet engines favors the lower RPM limit set by the NHRA. In my opinion it is more of General Motors dollars to over come the competition, it has gone on in NASCAR for years. In NASCAR when every Ford would get an advantage the rules changes would come weekly until Chevrolet was winning again , but when it is the other way around Ford is told to shut up and work harder. But that is another discussion.

 

What you may find interesting is an acceleration curve pretty much follows the torque as torque builds acceleration is hard pushing you back into the seat but as torque starts to fall off so does the acceleration. Torque gets you there horsepower keeps you there.

[Du-Rron]

 

Here is Cosworth turning 20,000 RPM on a dyno.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like my ceiling fan on a hot afternoon...

[cowpuc]

This is what the 2018 Star Venture thread over at the Victory Owners Group turned into as Half_Crazy attacked the Star Venture like he attacks all bikes that have not had aftermarket cams, exhaust, intakes and tuners installed on them.

 

I am a little disappointed that cowpuc has drug that argument over here into this forum.

 

 

American,, I dont know you from Adam and I am only spring boarding here off your early admission that you are this "REDVIC" person over on "the vog". If that is true (and I am not saying one way or the other because I really have no clue who you are), our readers and club members need to be made aware of the fact that it was actually you (or if "redvic" really isnt you as you had claimed earlier - if I am misunderstanding something here and you are not Redvic - I apologize for making a statement that may come across as accusitory in nature) who drew our club/myself into your discussion on "the vog" about all this and had done so wayy back on May 18th. Personally I have no problem with you having done so but I do take issue with you thinking you have some special right to do so and then, if a person like myself does the same thing, it appears that you have no problem making a big deal of some sort out of it.. Another thing that I highly take issue with in you referencing our club members stand on the subject of the new Venture over on The Vog is when you clearly misrepresent us as a group and have no problem in doing so as long as it somehow supports your agenda - Redvic, American or whoever you are - IMHO, doing that is flat out wrong. I wonder if a close reread of Redvic's thread over at The Vog that I reference here in this post would reveal a past history of having done this on the vog site too....

It's too bad we cant debate/discuss openly the pro's/con's of motorcycles without things going personal my friend.. Here in our club, our forum rules are such that we are not allowed to discuss Politics or Religion for (as far as I know,,,, perhaps we should ask Freebird if my assumption is correct in this) exactly this reason - people tend to respond with personal attacks when they are personally attacked for sharing their opinions.. It would be a shame, IMHO, if our club got to the point that we could no longer openly discuss/share our opinions now even about the Ventures that we have come to love...

Here is the copy/paste of the quote I pulled from The Vog that I am speaking about.. Personally,, I hope I am wrong in this and that I am the one who will be eating the crow here - I am use to the stuff and frankly dont mind the growth factor that is usually associated with a good heapin helpin of the stuff..

 

Below is the copy/paste from the vog and is dated May 18th, is post #473 of this thread: http://www.thevog.net/threads/yamaha-star-venture-trans-continental-is-a-torque-monster.144689/page-32#post-2912353

""""Half_Crazy said: ↑

My friend, the article with the dyno graph I posted was from Webby's post... before I ever replied in the thread. I didn't go looking for anything.

 

 

Dynos vary. 109 or 112 Tq... 77 or 79 HP... is that really enough of a difference (3 and 2) to do battle over?

 

If I hurt you feelings, I'm sorry, but I'm not the one making accusations here. Enjoy your new bike..."""

 

 

 

"""To which "Redvic" responded:

 

Your the one who started in about passing vehicles and started the stock bikes can't pass safely so you are stuck behind traffic. You have never ridden a Star Venture or Eluder so you don't have a clue as to how quickly these bikes accelerate, I have no problem getting around traffic. You want to find out how this bike really is go over to the VentureRider. Org forum and find out what people say who actually own the bike. None of them are complaining about power. A lot of the first and second generation owners are not happy that Yamaha went with the V-Twin instead of the liquid cooled V-Four like in the past but the ones who actually own the 2018 bike are pretty happy with it.

 

This Star Venture Transcontinental out accelerates my old 2013 Victory that I did do some work on and was able to get 107 lbs feet torque at the rear tire out of it and it out accelerates my 2016 Harley Ultra Limited Low which I did a full stage one system on it with tuner. I would not call either the Victory or the Harley a dog but the stock Yamaha Star Venture Transcontinental out preforms both bikes.

 

Yamaha clearly has done their homework on this bike. A demo ride that is controlled is not a real review of just how good this bike is. The demo routes are all preplanned to control the riders. The handling of the bike is the exact opposite of what people think, the bikes weight is not a handicap with this bike, it flat out handles like a dream."""

 

 

[American]

Boy I have a lot I really want to say about you cowpuc, but I will just bite my lip and not engage you because in the end your just not worth it.

[American]

This is Half_Crazy's first post in that thread you pulled the posts from. Like normal Half_Crazy dishes out his thinly veiled jabs. If you are going to use posts from another forum at least be honest in them, it is clear you took a real likening to Half_Crazy.

 

I would have 3 issues with the bike.

1) Pricey.

2) Load capacity is only 408 lbs. I'm 220, so that leaves 188 lbs for passenger and all luggage/gear.

3) Power level right there with the Indian 111.

 

http://www.thevog.net/attachments/1212-png.466105/

 

 

 

4500 rpm and it's over? This sounds so familiar... yup, has Indian written all over it.

 

Why would you need 'driving modes' on a bike that weighs 963 lbs and makes 0.68 horsepower per cubic inch? I guess you wouldn't want it to get away from you, huh?

 

Let's see... 12.5 lbs per horsepower for the Yamaha. A stock Cross Country Tour is 10.7 lbs per horsepower, a stock Cross Country is 9.4 lbs per horsepower, and a stock steel frame Vic is 8.2 lbs per horsepower (my bike is 5.2)...

 

People come away from a test ride on the Indian or the Yamaha thinking it felt really powerful. It's the way they are tuned to run, but when you open it up there's nothing there. Shift at 3500 and ride the torque curve, because that's all you have.

 

 

Now here is a post responding to half Crazy from another VOG member:

 

 

lou8700:

 

 

Come on Larry, you can't judge all bikes only by what's best for you. It's like comparing a 69 Hemi Cuda to a 69 Cadillac Coupe Deville. If you and your wife were heading out on a month long tour of the country which bike would you rather do it on, your KP or this Yamaha?

 

 

You and Half_Crazy have a lot in common in the way you both post cowpuc.

Edited June 3, 2018 by American

[American]

I said in response to Half_Crazy: Your comment about test rides on the Yamaha and Indian and people thinking they are powerful is because the engineers have designed the engines to be responsive where people are going to be riding the bike 99% of the time. I would much rather have a bike that is in the power band 99% of the time over a bike with a power band I will use 1% of the time.

Mister-g:

love this statement right here. it is so key yet few people talk about it ,,, like it's no big deal . with this gearing set-up and the bike in touring mode, well that sure sounds like a winning combination to me ! i have sat on them a few times and was happy with that assessment, i will be looking to get a test ride at some point this summer. nic job on that OP

 

[CaseyJ955]

Boy I have a lot I really want to say about you cowpuc, but I will just bite my lip and not engage you because in the end your just not worth it.

Brother Puc has exhibited far more patience with you than I would have. He contributes untold value, his worth is proven. Your value remains highly questionable in my opinion. If nothing else you have just forced me to figure out the block/ignore function for the first time since becoming a member here.

[American]

Been watching the different cowpuc videos of the new Star Venture and every single one he is less then complimentary of the new Venture so take it any way you want, cowpuc has an issue with the new Star Venture that he shows in his posts that are thinly veiled jabs at it.

 

He even does a video which I stopped watching after they make the claim that the Star Venture is not comfortable for the passenger. I can refute that comment as my wife thinks the Star Venture is the most comfortable bike we have had yet and she did not complain about the others but this one she say is the best of all of them.

 

Seems in every video cowpuc just can't bring himself to praise the new Star Venture without have to get his thinly veiled jabs in on it be it in the video itself or in the comment section of said video.

 

I could care less if you block me by the way.

 

I see why some of the new third gen Star Venture owners are starting to drop out of this forum.

[Marcarl]

Just so that everybody is perfectly clear on this subject, Adam was not an American!!

Now it would be nice if you two fellas would kiss and make up, I have no idea idea what it is you two are arguing over, it all makes no difference on a Spyder for when you twist the throttle, it's gone!! and that's what counts. But I really don't like the tone of voice that seems to bleeding into this conversation.

So can you two get it together and stay that way? Please?

[zagger]

Here is a good video which seems to settle the torque/horsepower debate.

https://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=4a88a935f5f0

 

zag

[cowpuc]

Been watching the different cowpuc videos of the new Star Venture and every single one he is less then complimentary of the new Venture so take it any way you want, cowpuc has an issue with the new Star Venture that he shows in his posts that are thinly veiled jabs at it.

 

He even does a video which I stopped watching after they make the claim that the Star Venture is not comfortable for the passenger. I can refute that comment as my wife thinks the Star Venture is the most comfortable bike we have had yet and she did not complain about the others but this one she say is the best of all of them.

 

Seems in every video cowpuc just can't bring himself to praise the new Star Venture without have to get his thinly veiled jabs in on it be it in the video itself or in the comment section of said video.

 

I could care less if you block me by the way.

 

I see why some of the new third gen Star Venture owners are starting to drop out of this forum.

 

,, now your catching on American!!!!! It's ALL about a difference of opinion about a machine,, you have your opinion and I have mine and,, IMHO,, that's not only OK but quite frankly, it's what make the world a fun place to live in.

co

Just so that everybody is perfectly clear on this subject, Adam was not an American!!

Now it would be nice if you two fellas would kiss and make up, I have no idea idea what it is you two are arguing over, it all makes no difference on a Spyder for when you twist the throttle, it's gone!! and that's what counts. But I really don't like the tone of voice that seems to bleeding into this conversation.

So can you two get it together and stay that way? Please?

 

I'm there Carl,,,, another lonely month of probation and in the penalty box.. Sure is lonely in there without Yammer though,,, wowzy I miss my friend... American,, I do extend a hand of apology to you for anything personal I have said/done against you - my apology is extended. I truly meant nothing personal by any of my comments concerning the new Venture,,, yes - my distaste for what Mom Yam decided to do in design changes on the new bike does come out in all my thoughts on the bike because I love , , and bikes,, I'm an ardent v-4 lover/rider because the platform has treated me and my family very well over the years and, IMHO, Mom Yam did a huge disservice to anyone whose backside is shaped like that familiar 1st Gen seat by not continuing the bloodline. I am sorry that you, and by the sounds of things other 3rd Gen riders too, are somehow taking my opinions of the new bike personally, that was NEVER my intent as they are nothing more than just my opinions..

And @Marcarl ,,, before the door to the penalty box slams shut on me,, again,,, I got one thing to say to you = Adam was no Canuckian either

[sydem]

Horse power is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you drag it.