Fork seals, again!

[CaseyJ955]

Yea, I'm not sure what to do with this. This will be the 3rd fork seal on the right, this is the 2nd one on the left side too but for now that one is fine. There was a nasty pothole on the last ride but still, that shouldn't be killing new fork seals. Using only OEM seals, I thought this last one was solid but here we are again. The fork upper looks perfect, not sure what keeps killing these new OEM seals. I'm tired of pissing around with these forks. Any ideas? Anyone have a good MKII fork upper, I cant think of anything else to do about it. I really dont want to do this job a 5th time. Anything I may be overlooking here?

 

I'm one fork seal away from selling this bike and cutting my losses.

[cowpuc]

Years ago I had issues like your dealing with on my first 1st Gen and that was when I discovered that Mom Yam had some kind an agreement with Bic Ink Pen company to allow Bic to provide ink pen springs for fork springs for our bikes - spindly little junk things they were,,, sack out just from sitting!! New set of Progressives set up with an inch of preload and 12.5 weight fork oil, running no air behind the oil and BINGO - no more blown seals!! Another thing you can do, IMHO Case, is double check for play in the fork bushings,,, little movement there can play havoc on the seals too..

[camos]

Have you checked the fork tubes for rough spots? Also wondering if you are getting any sand on the tubes that might cause excessive wear on the seal.

 

Do the forks have gaiters? My 90 came with them. It had lots of miles on it but the fork tubes looked brand new. Put a set on the 89 just because it seemed like a good idea.

[CaseyJ955]

I slid the BIC springs on out early on. I got all seals and bushings OEM and use an oil thats ~10w, threw in some new progressive springs right after I got her home and went through the forks and head bearings. The right seal blew after that, I found some metal filings that time but complete dissassembly left that a mystery. The two large washers were dished and I flatrened them, reassembled with new seal. Weeks later it failed again sans filings. Figured maybe dud seal, replaced again and was fine until yesterday. There are actually very few miles between failures, probably less than than 1000 mi or so. The tubes are very smooth, nothing rough or visibly wrong and smooth as glass to the touch. I does have some 75k miles so maybe some wear that is not visible, dunno. I cant have this going on with a bike to use to get so far from home with. The bike wears fork shields, metal fixed on with hose clamps and cover fully. I think they are original equip. Ive never had these issues using OEM seals, any other ideas on how to remedy? Thanks!

[cruiserlover]

I slid the BIC springs on out early on. I got all seals and bushings OEM and use an oil thats ~10w, threw in some new progressive springs right after I got her home and went through the forks and head bearings. The right seal blew after that, I found some metal filings that time but complete dissassembly left that a mystery. The two large washers were dished and I flatrened them, reassembled with new seal. Weeks later it failed again sans filings. Figured maybe dud seal, replaced again and was fine until yesterday. There are actually very few miles between failures, probably less than than 1000 mi or so. The tubes are very smooth, nothing rough or visibly wrong and smooth as glass to the touch. I does have some 75k miles so maybe some wear that is not visible, dunno. I cant have this going on with a bike to use to get so far from home with. The bike wears fork shields, metal fixed on with hose clamps and cover fully. I think they are original equip. Ive never had these issues using OEM seals, any other ideas on how to remedy? Thanks!

 

I have believed for a long time the fairings are too heavy and play heck with the fork seals.I have taken the radio and amp out a few times.But the bike I got yesterday is almst perfect so I am leaving all the stuff there.I think the springs and oil weight should have fixed your problem.I own one too, I would like to know the answer to this.

[CaseyJ955]

I have believed for a long time the fairings are too heavy and play heck with the fork seals.I have taken the radio and amp out a few times.But the bike I got yesterday is almst perfect so I am leaving all the stuff there.I think the springs and oil weight should have fixed your problem.I own one too, I would like to know the answer to this.

I agree that it is very obese. If this bike didnt fit me so well I would have not considered it. I love her for the same reasons most of us do but if shes going to help me relive my HD days Ill catapult her giant ass clear to the moon (sell). I really need to sort a permanent solution for the forks. In the Vmax world there is an R1 fork upgrade common to some circles, do I have any options to upgrade the forks without major mods? Maybe non bushing? Maybe I just need a fresher set of these but one thing becoming clear, I'm overlooking something stupid or for some reason these forks are not going to take a rebuild. If anyone has known good forks, or an upgrade idea, pls chime in. Wanna make an offer on the bike, let her rip, my frustration is palpable. Will 2nd gen forks swap, if so would that be an upgrade?

[CaseyJ955]

Bike currently for sale in classified section along with all the Vmax stuff I harvested for it. I would still like to permenantly sort the fork seals before sending her along, or keeping her. Either way I'm still looking for low mile forks or any fork upgrade info anyone can add. I hope you all wont throw me out of the nest for deventuring, I promise to keep my Vmax, does that count?

[Flyinfool]

A nick in the fork tube that is to small to see or feel is still enough to take out a seal.

Slide something like a woman's nylon stocking (DON'T tell the wife what you are doing with her stockings) over the tubes it will catch on the microscopic nicks to let you know they are there.

[CaseyJ955]

Darn, wifey doesn't have anything like that. Very cool idea I will keep with me though. I'm reluctant to do the exact same repair again expecting it to be all good this time. I thoroughly examined the uppers with some crazy reading glasses and I could find nothing at all. I think I will source at least the right side upper as the left seems to be hanging in there just fine now. When they fail they dont just weep, they loose lots of oil pretty fast, 10 miles home and its soaked. then when I pull the seal I can see no sighns that it is even used, no nicks of scuffs, nothing. Really must be something I just cant see. I didnt forget about filings in the right tube the first time it failed, they came fron somewhere but darn if I and a couple others could see where. I think ive done about as much as I can with the existing fork.

[Karaboo]

My right front started leaking last spring. It leaked enough to start a drip down the side of the lower tube. It happened after a rather large, sharp bump with the wheel turned.

I drained both sides, ran a seal cleaner through each seal (35m film works) and re-filled them to the same level with the springs out. It weeped a little, so I ran the cleaning tool through again (no air pressure, of course) and it has been good for the last 5,000 or so miles. Guess I got lucky. I thought for sure I was going to have to rebuild everything, since it has over 50k on the odometer. Not to mention 28 years on the ticker.

 

On the bright side, at least it is not a brand new bike (or car, or whatever) with a recurring issue. Those will really get you steamed!

[Condor]

A nick in the fork tube that is to small to see or feel is still enough to take out a seal.

Slide something like a woman's nylon stocking (DON'T tell the wife what you are doing with her stockings) over the tubes it will catch on the microscopic nicks to let you know they are there.

Another thing that causes fork seals to go prematurely is dried bug guts on the inners. They will do in a seal in a heart beat... What I generally do on long rides is spray some Pam on the front of the tube right above the seal. When a critter commits suicide on the tube he...or she... won't stick to the tube... There's also a gizmo that someone came up with that's about like a piece of camera film that will slide between the tube and the seal that will clean dirt off the seal and stop the leaks....

[CaseyJ955]

Another thing that causes fork seals to go prematurely is dried bug guts on the inners. They will do in a seal in a heart beat... What I generally do on long rides is spray some Pam on the front of the tube right above the seal. When a critter commits suicide on the tube he...or she... won't stick to the tube... There's also a gizmo that someone came up with that's about like a piece of camera film that will slide between the tube and the seal that will clean dirt off the seal and stop the leaks....

Thats another cool idea, I thick I heard Puc mention the film trick. I have a seal mate which was used to no avail. My forks dont have gaiters but more a metal chrome plated shield, it has a pedistal inside that is held to the fork tube via hose clamps. Never seen these types before but they look very nice. They most closely resemble really sexy exhaust heat shields. Ill throw up a pic after I get home. They fully cover the front half of the tubes and nothing seems to get by them, they do get plastered by insects tired of life, but the forks are always perfectly clean. I dont know why everyone doesnt have shields like this, they are quite slick. They look OEM but never seen any others. I think the PO loaded this bike up with every extra he could find, gotta say his choices really do ad function and value. Pics coming next week. I would actually like to see if anyone knows about these shields.

[CaseyJ955]

My right front started leaking last spring. It leaked enough to start a drip down the side of the lower tube. It happened after a rather large, sharp bump with the wheel turned. I drained both sides, ran a seal cleaner through each seal (35m film works) and re-filled them to the same level with the springs out. It weeped a little, so I ran the cleaning tool through again (no air pressure, of course) and it has been good for the last 5,000 or so miles. Guess I got lucky. I thought for sure I was going to have to rebuild everything, since it has over 50k on the odometer. Not to mention 28 years on the ticker. On the bright side, at least it is not a brand new bike (or car, or whatever) with a recurring issue. Those will really get you steamed!

There was a wicked pothole on 44 and I rode right over it, it literally made my teeth chatter, surprised there was no damage. It bottomed out hard, first time since I installed the Progressives. Not sure if the bottoming was due to fork oil already being lost in this ride, or if that pothole smack was ugly enough to pop a seal. Ive decided to just go ahead and replace the fork upper and try again, even if the bike sells I would not feel right about selling it like that even though I fully disclosed in the ad. Im convinced there has to be a flaw in it that I cant see. This is how bad it leaks... I wipe it down clean, then get on, hold the brake and rock back/forth to bounce the front 10-20 times and it would be dripping down the leg from just that. Looks like im replacing a set of new saturated EBC pads too. They dont weep, when they go its a ride ending deal. Thanks you guys for all the ideas. I do love this forum!

[cimmer]

I believe those chrome fork protectors are an aftermarket item. I have seen them on a few Ventures and other bikes. I do know in 90 Yamaha started using the rubber fork boot to protect the forks from debris so they must have determined it was an issue that needed to be addressed.

Hope you can figure it out but try running a dryer towel or microfiber cloth over the tubes to make sure you dont have a small nick and when apart, roll the tube along a flat surface to make sure if is straight.

Good luck..

Rick F.

[CaseyJ955]

I believe those chrome fork protectors are an aftermarket item. I have seen them on a few Ventures and other bikes. I do know in 90 Yamaha started using the rubber fork boot to protect the forks from debris so they must have determined it was an issue that needed to be addressed. Hope you can figure it out but try running a dryer towel or microfiber cloth over the tubes to make sure you dont have a small nick and when apart, roll the tube along a flat surface to make sure if is straight. Good luck.. Rick F.

You guys are right, I'll find some stockings and do that test. If questioned by the wifey I'll tell her that I have to make sure Birtha has legs as smooth as hers. Im glad she has a remarkable sense of humor (yea, she would have to hah!) because she will use it for sure. Seriously I'll swing by Walgreen's and "snag" a pair and keep them in my tool box. I also got a mental image of walking into a billiard, slapping these down on the slate and giving them that roll we do with house cues to find a usable one. I think I'll order a spare leg off ebay (~$40 shipped) because whether or not Im able to find the issue I will never have peace of mind again with these parts. I get much to far from not only home but from civilization where possible. I will sure use both of these great ideas to find out why it did leak, If I dont then it will haunt me always. Thanks gents, I will take all advice given here and update when I know waddup! You guys rock!

[Guest divey]

Glad to see you’re going to keep at it Tony to try and make it right. Knowing how much you treasure your ride, I thought maybe your decision to sell it might have been premature. Good luck on finding the fix. Doug

 

You guys are right, I'll find some stockings and do that test. If questioned by the wifey I'll tell her that I have to make sure Birtha has legs as smooth as hers. Im glad she has a remarkable sense of humor (yea, she would have to hah!) because she will use it for sure. Seriously I'll swing by Walgreen's and "snag" a pair and keep them in my tool box. I also got a mental image of walking into a billiard, slapping these down on the slate and giving them that roll we do with house cues to find a usable one. I think I'll order a spare leg off ebay (~$40 shipped) because whether or not Im able to find the issue I will never have peace of mind again with these parts. I get much to far from not only home but from civilization where possible. I will sure use both of these great ideas to find out why it did leak, If I dont then it will haunt me always. Thanks gents, I will take all advice given here and update when I know waddup! You guys rock!

[CaseyJ955]

Glad to see you’re going to keep at it Tony to try and make it right. Knowing how much you treasure your ride, I thought maybe your decision to sell it might have been premature. Good luck on finding the fix. Doug

Hey Doug, good to see you. I know it sounded like a snap decision but it goes a little deeper. Not sure if you really saw Rapid City when you were out here, but its a soul sapping 70k+ population and growing very quickly, and im only 10 minutes away. When I know I have to go to town it fills me with dread, not figurative make-a-point dread either. Rapid has two walmarts, TWO!!! In one single town!! Going to town should be two stop lights, not two walmarts! Anyways, Ive got my eye on some chunks of land, some with homes already. Its amazing how cheap land/homes can be when you want nothing to do with a city and are able to do some work. figure if I cant pay 40-50% down then I cant afford it. The decision to sell off another bike and a couple cars was made, which ones is a more difficult decision, but its almost as if Birtha (Venture) volunteered herself by getting fussy at the wrong moment. I knew on some level I would not be letting the Vmax go, Ive wanted her since 1985. Unless my tool stack sells she will remain for sale until I purchase land (fall hopefully). Trying to sell her is the right thing to do right now, but if nobody is interested it wont break my heart one bit. Even if I trade this cage for the 05 1200RT (considering but would rather cash) I hope to be allowed to remain here, this forum is about the finest I have known and I dont wanna get tossed for beemering it up haha.

[Patch]

Hi Casey,

 

So perpetual problems beat us because they are perpetual!

 

Then the answer must be viewed with measure and rules.

 

"they loose lots of oil pretty fast, 10 miles"

 

First I expect that form isn't true. Check list: lift the bike, extend forks then place a straight edge along the uppers 4 locations or 90* moving around the tubes...

 

Next caliper the seats for the seals look for any flat spot or bad clips... (take a pic & post)

 

What are you using to set the seals in place? Do you lube them first?

 

Other thoughts: Could there be build up at the bottom of the dampers? (you mentioned that they collapse) Progressive brand don't usually but if the damper isn't functioning correctly....

 

When filling do you compress shock fully?

 

So that's 2 strikes so far on the dampers maybe 3!

 

Next what condition are the O-rings at the top caps in?

 

Is your air still hooked up?

 

Comment: I am not a fan of the"progressive spring" brand. I find the action is way to fast for a touring machine! Side by side I found them tiring and a butt tightener on rough roads..

 

Next and I feel strongly about this, you are not using the best oil for this machine. 0-30 is a better way in my opinion Mobile 1 or next best available there are good reasons for this too.

 

It took me a long while to get my springs and front end balanced but once there!

 

Patch

[CaseyJ955]

Hi Casey,

 

So perpetual problems beat us because they are perpetual!

 

Then the answer must be viewed with measure and rules.

 

"they loose lots of oil pretty fast, 10 miles"

 

First I expect that form isn't true. Check list: lift the bike, extend forks then place a straight edge along the uppers 4 locations or 90* moving around the tubes...

 

Next caliper the seats for the seals look for any flat spot or bad clips... (take a pic & post)

 

What are you using to set the seals in place? Do you lube them first?

 

Other thoughts: Could there be build up at the bottom of the dampers? (you mentioned that they collapse) Progressive brand don't usually but if the damper isn't functioning correctly....

 

When filling do you compress shock fully?

 

So that's 2 strikes so far on the dampers maybe 3!

 

Next what condition are the O-rings at the top caps in?

 

Is your air still hooked up?

 

Comment: I am not a fan of the"progressive spring" brand. I find the action is way to fast for a touring machine! Side by side I found them tiring and a butt tightener on rough roads..

 

Next and I feel strongly about this, you are not using the best oil for this machine. 0-30 is a better way in my opinion Mobile 1 or next best available there are good reasons for this too.

 

It took me a long while to get my springs and fro

More great info. I wont be able to touch the bike until after the 10th, at that time I'm going to hit every one of these points. But in short I do lightly prelube seals, there is no air hooked up to front. Orings appear good, seal seats look good but ill get a chance to look again. I will revisit all this when things slow down next week. Thank you for the additional ideas.

[Patch]

Glad to contribute some experience.

So if the air system is not in use, is the bridge and those fine O-rings still in place below the cap ends? (it's suppose to be a closed system)

I ran into a modified Venture last year that defied easy comprehension; however the bike (not mine) came with a box of extra parts which gave me clues to what had been done, so a place to start.

 

Patch

[CaseyJ955]

Glad to contribute some experience.

So if the air system is not in use, is the bridge and those fine O-rings still in place below the cap ends? (it's suppose to be a closed system)

I ran into a modified Venture last year that defied easy comprehension; however the bike (not mine) came with a box of extra parts which gave me clues to what had been done, so a place to start.

 

Patch

 

Thanks, the front plumbing is in tact but the tube just lays loose back by the pump. I left that long tube and plumbing on it to prevent debris from eentering the air chambers. It is not sealed, should it be? Also, I have a bunch of mobile1 0-30 synth motor oil for my lexus, is this what you recommend for forks with progressives? I know progressives arent top drawer stuff mut iirc the racetechs were stupid expensive. Do you have a fluid level in mind with this setup? Thanks again, I know I will get to pay all this forward. I like to share what I know and learn what I dont. Thanks!

[Flyinfool]

Yes that air tube to the front forks (and rear if it is also disconnected) should be sealed. As the forks move up and down there is air pumping in and out thru that tube if it is open. This can be sucking in moisture and debris. Also the air space that is in the tubes acts like a spring as it compresses. If the tube is open then you are running with a much lower spring rate than you should be. This could be partly why you bottomed out the front end.

[Patch]

Hey Casey,

 

Flyinfool is bang on and expressed the dynamics simply too.

 

When we change or mod things we often do so in a "static" train of thought.

(not unlike the other post ongoing with regards to adding a switch to the compressor)

 

SO we have identified one issue with your front suspension, confirmed progress.

 

However there must me other out of balances going on.

 

1st I would continue to check off the list above. As we do so we narrow down to what ever the remaining conclusions must be accepted, and resolved.

 

I use 0/30 and I also drained and used it in that other machine we ran cross country, which also had Progressive brand. Now as I mentioned that bike had been butchered and lowered to fit a rider outside design spec. Picture a stunt bike weighing at at a K+;;; so it was a long way back to Venture touring on that one.

 

I know others here use 0/30 perhaps there has been discussions on the insanity of this, so perhaps members stopped bringing it forward?

Mine ran with this for many years, I would use it again!

 

Its not easy to move this or displace this weight of oil- but as we have experienced it will pass through the dampening porting chambers at a reduced velocity.

 

So lets break it down: there was a reason (s) the springs were swapped. Some because their bikes fall over off the side stand, some to reduce dive, some to prevent bottoming out.

 

Sticking to a "static" train of..... There are certainly 2 of these that I find easy to agree with and which lead to the same conclusion - the springs have sagged.

 

Often I've read post's that lay all blame on the air system, and they come up with a "patch fix" often based on a rumor justified by the decision to spend their hard earned $$$ and other follow suit?!

 

So back to Progressive brand, they are fast acting and they will stretch the forks out so usually this reduces the risk of the bike falling when left on the side stand! Personally I cut my stand down 14mm was simple enough and I can justify the static approach to the problem!

 

But my springs were sagged and the action was poor so I still needed to address that. I had inventory so I fitted the progressives I had and like the upper balance I believed they would bring!

 

The tubes? I can't remember if I rebuilt them or just soaked them? Regardless I played first with the spring motion by trimming the (towers) preload, then I tried different oils. It didn't take long to figure I wanted more dampening "slower action". I am pretty sure I read on this forum an "out of the box" thinker posted 0/30 and that worked out very well for me! It didn't spell the end of the project but it put an end to the that half and I moved on to the air system half of the problem all of which is somewhere on this forum!

 

to the last of your questions: The volume is calculated and should be adhered to in my opinion. The last thing you want on the front is a sudden stop in the compression of the shocks.

 

Patch

Edited June 5, 2018 by Patch

[camos]

I've been wondering how much oil you had in each tube when you changed the seals? With the forks compressed and the springs not installed, fill to 5.5" down from the top. If that is too firm remove a little to 5.75" or even 6". A little more air makes the forks a little more cushiony.

 

I read somewhere having too much oil can cause hydro locking or feeling like it bottomed out and or leaking out of the seal. Never heard of 0-30 oil, guess it's an engine oil of some kind. I'm not confident that engine oil is a good substitute for fork oil just because of all the additives that are usually included.

 

Currently I am running generic 30 wt hydraulic oil in my forks. It works OK but is a bit too firm so next year when it's time to change the oil I'm going to try something lighter.

[cimmer]

30W does seem a little to heavy for fork oil. I am using 15W with my progressives springs and I use a little bit of air also.. seems to work nicely for me.

But the level of the oil in the fork does make a difference..

 

Rick F.