American Posted May 26, 2018 #26 Posted May 26, 2018 RED LINE 20W50 MOTORCYCLE OIL Designed for the latest Big-Twin motorcycle engines that specify 20W50 motor oil, including Evolution, Twin Cam and aftermarket engines of similar design Superior film strength through the use of ester base stocks for protection and ring seal Extended drain intervals over other brands due to higher quality base stocks and excellent dispersants Blended with specific friction modifiers that are compatible with wet-clutches, suitable for JASO MA applications There is also another part where it only says PAO and Ester base stocks. Either way I know I like Redline as it works for me. Other like Amsoil because it works for them while still others like Mobil One and then you have those who still use conventional oil. Who cares what oil each one of use, just post what you use and what worked for you and people can then decide which ones they want to try and use. No need to try and beat down each brand, I know that there are several good brands that will work well from different manufactures. I am sure there are those out there who use semi-synthetics.
Zelthian Posted May 26, 2018 Author #27 Posted May 26, 2018 Be careful trying to use product data safety sheets to try and determine what the make up of the oil is, I have yet to see any Redline advertised as anything except Group V ester oil, yes it has Group IV added to for seal compatibility and likely other benefits. As I said earlier in this thread, one company's info is another company's propaganda. Every company's advertising should be approached with a critical eye. Remember also that Group V is not a higher level of synthetic, it is only all the other synthetics that don't fit into the Group IV listing. PAOs HAVE a classification. They are Group IV. Redline motorcycle oil is 48-58% PAO, which means they are 48-58% Group IV. I have yet to see any manufacture tell anyone what their formula and make up is, the product data safety sheets are solely for hazmat so that emergency response crews will know what chemicals they are dealing with as that will determine how they treat a scene. I might agree with you if it weren't for the fact that the Synthetic Lubricant Base Oil is CLEARLY called out in the automotive oil SDS, and is ABSENT from the 10w40 motorcycle oil SDS. If the Synthetic Lubricant Base Oil were in the 10w40 motorcycle oil, it WOULD be called out in the motorcycle oil SDS. This is also supported by the fact that the Redline 20w60 motorcycle oil IS Group V, and the SDS (https://w3apps.phillips66.com/NetMSDS/ViewPDF.aspx?fileName=830005&Language=EN&IssueDate=5%2f16%2f2018&SubFormat=USDS) indicates greater than 70% Synthetic Lubricant Base Oil without the esters indicated in the 10w40 motorcycle oil SDS. So: No Synthetic Lubricant Base Oil in the 10w40 motorcycle oil. Superior film strength through the use of ester base stocks for protection and ring seal There is also another part where it only says PAO and Ester base stocks. "The use of ester base stocks" is not the same as, "This oil is primarly ester based / Group V". The only reason I harp on this is that the statements "All Redline oils are Group V based" is technically inaccurate. The 10w40 Motorcycle oil clearly isn't (though as I mentioned before, the Redline 20w60 is). Frustratingly, I can't get the 20w50 motorcycle oil SDS to load or download. Either way I know I like Redline as it works for me. Other like Amsoil because it works for them while still others like Mobil One and then you have those who still use conventional oil. Who cares what oil each one of use, just post what you use and what worked for you and people can then decide which ones they want to try and use. No need to try and beat down each brand, I know that there are several good brands that will work well from different manufactures. I am sure there are those out there who use semi-synthetics. Honestly I'm no trying to beat down Redline. Their video is good, they put their product info out there, and I don't see anything to suggest their products aren't great. The ONLY think I'm beating down is the statement that all Redline oils are Group V. There is clear evidence that the 10w40 motorcycle oil isn't. I'm not saying it's a bad oil, or that it wouldn't be fantastic in my motorcycle. In fact, I plan on giving it a try. It's just not primarily a Group V oil.
American Posted May 26, 2018 #28 Posted May 26, 2018 (edited) Big difference between advertising and pulling apart data safety sheets designed to assist hazmat teams in case of an accident. Neither one of us knows the formula of any brand of oil, and a data safety sheet is sure as heck not going to reveal the formulation of an oil, if it did all the manufactures would be using each others data safety sheets to copy each others formula. Think of it this way, Coke and Pepsi both list ingredients on their cans but neither one tells you how much of each ingredient is used to make their formula. You're grasping at straws, it is clear you don't like Redline so what, use Amsoil, from your posts it is clear that is what you like and use as everything you post is from one Amsoil distributor or another. I have said Amsoil makes a good oil and I would not tell anyone not to use it, I also said I have never used Amsoil because I have never had the opportunity. For someone who did not want an oil battle you sure have gone out of your way to try to discredit Redline oil. Like I said Amsoil, Mobil One, Motul, Redline, there are others are all good oils, use what you feel comfortable with. Here is an oil sample of Redline from the Harley I traded in, the sample was taken at the 20,000 mile oil change so it had Redline 20w-50 for the past 15,000 miles up to that sample: Got back my oil report on my 2016 Harley Davidson Ultra Limited Twin Cool 103 C.I. engine. I have run Redline 20w-50 motorcycle oil since the 5,000 mile oil change, The engine ran the factory fill for the first 1,000 miles then was changed at the 1,000 mile service to Harley SYN 3 synthetic oil until the 5,000 mile oil change. Engine has a Vance & Hines FP3 tuner, Vance & Hines Powerdual header, Rinehart mufflers and a Arlen Ness Big Sucker stage one intake. Oil Type & Grade: Redline 20w-50 motorcycle oil Comments: Wear metals look great for this first sample from your limited. Averages for this engine type are based on about 4,200 miles on the oil. You ran longer and got less metal in the oil-- that's great! Your engine is wearing with the best of them! The viscosity was a little think, but that hasn't hurt anything that we can see. We're not sure what causes it, but it's fairly common to see high viscosity in Harley engines. As far as we can tell, it's harmless. The TBN was quite strong at 5.0 (1.0 is low) so you should be fine with a longer interval. Try 6,500 miles. Nice! Miles on oil: 5,222 Miles on unit: 25,001 Sample Date: 11/25/2017 Make up oil added: 0 Aluminum: 2 universal averages: 4 Chromium: 0 universal averages: 0 Iron: 8 universal averages: 11 Copper: 10 universal averages: 18 Lead:0 universal averages: 0 Tin: 1 universal averages: 1 Molybdenum: 560 universal averages: 103 Nickel: 0 universal averages: 0 Manganese: 1 universal averages: 1 Silver: 1 universal averages: 0 Titanium: 0 universal averages: 0 Potassium: 1 universal averages: 2 Boron: 17 universal averages: 139 Silicon: 18 Universal averages: 16 Sodium: 10 universal Averages: 7 Calcium: 2695 universal averages: 2223 Magnesium: 14 universal averages: 259 Phosphorus: 1901 universal averages: 1116 Zinc: 2117 universal averages: 1390 Barium: 1 universal averages: 1 SUS Viscosity @ 210 F: 109.0 Values: 75 - 99 cSt Viscosity @ 100 C: 22.45 Values: 14.3 - 20.4 Flashpoint in F: 415 Values: >385 Fuel %: Antifreese %: 0 Water %: 0 Insolubles %: 0.2 Values: TBN 5.0 Like I said I like Redline it works for me and I have the oil reports to back it up from Blackstone Labs. Edited May 26, 2018 by American
Zelthian Posted May 26, 2018 Author #29 Posted May 26, 2018 There are a lot of assumptions and jumps to conclusions in the last post. Let me see if I can state, directly, my position so that folks know where I'm coming from. I don't use Amsoil oil. Yet. Amsoil is on my list of oils to try in my bike, but I have not yet used Amsoil oil. I have never said I don't like Redline oil. I have never used them and have not formed an opinion. But, like Amsoil, I do plan on using the oil in my bike. Given advertising and technical data, I will focus on the technical data, regardless of what form it's in. SDSs won't show the full composition of an oil. It is clear, however, that they can provide enough information to at least determine the type of base oil used, and the percentage of that base used in the oil. I can find no advertising that states or claims, unequivocally, that all Redline oils are Group V. This statement, so far as I can tell, comes from user American and by others making the claim in other online forums. Somebody please link to a Redline webpage, video, or technical document that directly states this. All the information above can be found by doing less that five minutes of searching on Google. And now some personal statements. I have no issue with anyone liking a particular brand of oil. I do take issue with broad statements that can't be backed up with technical documentation or statements directly from the source. I believe there is very little difference in the OBSERVABLE performance of the various different brands of synthetic oil, given the same viscosity and application. As of yet, I haven't seen a lab-based, repeatable long-term caparison between the brands. What would be the point? Who's going to put up the money for such a test? Once you get to the level of performance of the synthetic oils these brands offer, it would take an extraordinary effort (time, money) to show an observable difference, and any difference would be so small between them as to not warrant the effort. I believe this is why a true long-term comparison isn't done. As such, I really don't have the desire to try to prove one way or the other which oil is "best". The only difference I've observed is the absence of the transmission whine at my last oil change when I switched oils. My only goal is to see if the same is true when I use Redline/Amsoil/Brand xyz oil as well, or if the whine will come back. This was an observable change that I hope stays true as I try the other oils. I created this thread so that folks could argue over oil here instead of hijacking other posts to do so. I am making a list of oils to try. So far, this is my list: Redline 10W40 Motorcycle Oil Amsoil 10W40 Synthetic Metric Motorcycle Oil Royal Purple 10W40 MAX-CYCLE® – Synthetic Motorcycle Engine Oil Mobil 1 10W40 Mobil 1 Racing™ 4T Motorcycle Oil Castrol 10W40 POWER1 4T Engine Oil Valvoline™ 4-Stroke Full Synthetic Motorcycle Oil I think that's all the major brands. Did I miss any? There are so many other smaller brands... Bikemaster, Lucas, Motul, Rotella... are any of these worth trying?
Kretz Posted May 26, 2018 #30 Posted May 26, 2018 Personally, I ask one question, does the oil lubricate my bike the way the manufacturer intended? Other than that I really don't care what it's called or what "group" it's in. At the end of the day it's ALL down to personal preference! You like this, I like that, he likes something else. It's all semantics. I think these oil threads often get sidetracked by minutiae, manufacturers' claims, brand loyalty & personal opinions. You can compare till the cows come home you are never going to find one "outright winner". We're not going to strip our bikes to component parts after every oil change to measure wear & tear to see what difference the latest oil made. (at least I'm not). Are you happy? Is your bike happy? End of story!
Zelthian Posted May 26, 2018 Author #31 Posted May 26, 2018 Personally, I ask one question, does the oil lubricate my bike the way the manufacturer intended? Other than that I really don't care what it's called or what "group" it's in. At the end of the day it's ALL down to personal preference! You like this, I like that, he likes something else. It's all semantics. I think these oil threads often get sidetracked by minutiae, manufacturers' claims, brand loyalty & personal opinions. You can compare till the cows come home you are never going to find one "outright winner". We're not going to strip our bikes to component parts after every oil change to measure wear & tear to see what difference the latest oil made. (at least I'm not). Are you happy? Is your bike happy? End of story! Yup. Personally I was surprised when the transmission whine went away at my last oil change. I figured it was something I was going to have to live with. It's got me very curious as to what the actual reason was that it went away.
American Posted May 27, 2018 #32 Posted May 27, 2018 [h=1]Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation[/h]From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [TABLE=class: plainlinks metadata ambox ambox-content ambox-Refimprove, width: 1] [TR] [TD=class: mbox-image, align: center] [/TD] [TD=class: mbox-text]This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (August 2012) (Learn how and when to remove this template message) [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [TABLE=class: plainlinks metadata ambox ambox-content ambox-Advert, width: 1] [TR] [TD=class: mbox-image, align: center] [/TD] [TD=class: mbox-text]This article contains content that is written like an advertisement. Please help improve it by removing promotional content and inappropriate external links, and by adding encyclopedic content written from a neutral point of view. (August 2012) (Learn how and when to remove this template message) [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [TABLE=class: infobox vcard, width: 22] Red Line Synthetic Oil[TR] [TH]Industry[/TH] [TD=class: category]Chemical[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TH]Founded[/TH] [TD]1979 in Novato, California[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TH]Founder[/TH] [TD=class: agent]Tim Kerrigan Peter Filice[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TH]Headquarters[/TH] [TD=class: adr]Benicia, California, United States[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TH]Products[/TH] [TD]Synthetic lubricants[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TH]Owner[/TH] [TD]Phillips 66 Spectrum Corporation[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Red Line Synthetic Oil is a synthetic lubricants manufacturer located in Benicia, California, United States.[1] It is part of Phillips 66 Spectrum Corporation.[2] [h=2]Contents[/h] [hide] 1History 2Products 3Racing 4References 5External links [h=2][/h]Red Line was founded in 1979 by Tim Kerrigan and Peter Filice in Novato, California. As it grew, it moved to Martinez, California, and then to Benicia, California. In 1986, Roy Howell, a Cornell graduate and chemist working for Lubrizol, was appointed as Chief Chemist at Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation and is currently Vice President of the company. [h=2][/h]Red Line started as a company producing oils for the racing industry, later expanding their business to the more mainstream markets. They have a full line up of multigrade and monograde polyol ester base stock (Group V) engine and gear lubricants.[3][4][5] [h=2][/h]Starting in 2009, they are the official oil for the Formula Mazda Challenge series [6] Other partnerships and contingency programs include Drag racing,[7] Road Racing,[8] Time Attack,[9] Pro Stock Bike racing,[10] and Motorcycle racing.[11] Red Line Synthetic Oil sponsored touring car racer Eddie Garrison n the Grand Bayou Race Series in 2007. Red Line also sponsored Doug Kalitta's NHRA Top Fuel Dragster beginning in 2009 [12] and Stillen's Rally-Spec Nissan GT-R.[13] [h=2][/h] Jump up ^ Red Line Synthetic Oil, Official website, Retrieved August 21, 2008. Jump up ^ Phillips 66 Acquires Specialty Lubricants Manufacturer, News release, Retrieved April 18, 2017. Jump up ^ [1], Esters in Synthetic Lubricants, BITOG Paper by T.G. Schaefer Jump up ^ "Archived copy" (PDF). Archived from the original (PDF)on 2009-04-07. Retrieved 2009-06-17., Red Line Motor Oil Technical Information Jump up ^ "Archived copy" (PDF). Archived from the original (PDF)on 2009-08-24. Retrieved 2009-06-17., Red Line Race Oil Technical Information Jump up ^ [2][permanent dead link], Formula Mazda Challenge Jump up ^ "Archived copy". Archived from the original on 2009-07-13. Retrieved 2009-06-17., Drag Racing partnerships Jump up ^ "Archived copy". Archived from the original on 2009-07-13. Retrieved 2009-06-17., Road Racing partnerships Jump up ^ [3], Time Attack partnership Jump up ^ [4], Pro Stock Bike Partnership Jump up ^ "Archived copy". Archived from the original on 2009-07-13. Retrieved 2009-06-17., Motorcycle Racing partnerships Jump up ^ "Red Line and Doug Kalitta Team for Sonoma NHRA". http://www.redlineoil.com. Retrieved 29 June 2017. Jump up ^ "Red Line Synthetic Oil -". http://www.redlineoil.com. Retrieved 29 June 2017. [h=2][/h] Red Line Synthetic Oil - Official Website.
American Posted May 27, 2018 #33 Posted May 27, 2018 https://www.oldhallperformance.com/redline RED LINE OIL Since 1979, Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation has grown to manufacture more than 100 quality products, including motor oils, gear oils, assembly lubes, fuel additives, and its popular WaterWetter cooling additive for the automotive, motorcycle, marine, and industrial markets. Based in Benicia, California, Red Line has a reputation with racers and enthusiasts alike for creating products that perform and protect better than any on the market, regardless of price. Originally founded by president Tim Kerrigan and Peter Filice (retired) to produce lubricants for the racing industry, Red Line Oil now distributes its diverse line of products across the globe. Vice President Roy Howell brings a knowledge of available technologies and responds to technical challenges, satisfying the high demands of the performance industry. Red Line's employees are enthusiasts that stay on top of each racing and performance niche, ensuring that product recommendations allow customers make the significant performance gains. Red Line formulates fully-synthetic oils and chemically-advanced additives using the world’s finest base stocks. Rather than cutting costs by blending in petroleum products, Red Line's motor oils and gear oils use superior ester base stocks that provide extreme stability at high temperatures and superior film strength at lower viscosities where more power can be produced.
American Posted May 27, 2018 #34 Posted May 27, 2018 Redline has not hidden anything by the way, they clearly state they are made with PAO and Ester base stocks, I already explained that seals will shrink with pure Ester synthetic, so it is not out of line to have PAO base stock with Ester base stock. PAO base stock causes seals to expand. The combination of PAO with Ester solves the problem of leaking seals due to shrinkage. Every group V ester based oil made has group IV PAO base stock in it. That is all I have to say about this, the argument has gotten silly. If you are not using Amsoil then we still don't know what oil you put in your Venture that you say stopped the gear whine. Not really understanding why it is such a big secret. The Redline 20w-50 I am running has quieted down my Venture, the top end mechanical sounds have been reduced and I don't hear the gear whine in mine. Just saying.
Zelthian Posted May 27, 2018 Author #35 Posted May 27, 2018 Redline has not hidden anything by the way, they clearly state they are made with PAO and Ester base stocks Thank you for coming out and saying this. That is all I have to say about this, the argument has gotten silly. Yes it has. If you are not using Amsoil then we still don't know what oil you put in your Venture that you say stopped the gear whine. Not really understanding why it is such a big secret. I didn't mention the brand because I didn't want to come across sounding like a fanboy. Once you get labeled as a fanboy of a particular brand, folks tend to not take your opinion seriously in relation to other brands.
cowpuc Posted May 27, 2018 #36 Posted May 27, 2018 Personally, I ask one question, does the oil lubricate my bike the way the manufacturer intended?climb Other than that I really don't care what it's called or what "group" it's in. At the end of the day it's ALL down to personal preference! You like this, I like that, he likes something else. It's all semantics. I think these oil threads often get sidetracked by minutiae, manufacturers' claims, brand loyalty & personal opinions. You can compare till the cows come home you are never going to find one "outright winner". We're not going to strip our bikes to component parts after every oil change to measure wear & tear to see what difference the latest oil made. (at least I'm not). Are you happy? Is your bike happy? End of story! I totally agree with you here Kretzer BUT,,, I do actually enjoy the testing part of engine oils:cool10:
Freebird Posted May 27, 2018 #37 Posted May 27, 2018 I have been keeping up with this thread. I will openly admit that I am a Mobil 1 fan and have been since at least 1999. I use it in pretty much everything I own. I run Mobil 1 Racing 4T in my motorcycles. It is not and never has been my desire to convince anybody else that they should also use my preferred oil. I actually think that any quality oil, without friction modifiers due to our wet clutches, will work just fine if changed regularly. Most of what has been posted in this thread has been posted before and makes no difference to me. There is one thing that I picked up on though that piqued my interest. It was stated that though highly refined Group III oils could be marketed and sold in the USA as Full Synthetics, the same is not the case in Germany and other European countries. That prompted me to do some searching because many have speculated that when Mobil 1 lost their lawsuit against Castrol, they caved in and started using a group III base for their own products. I've never seen any proof of that but I've seen it posted in many places. So I did some searching and found that Mobil 1 Racing 4T is sold in Germany as "Fully Synthetic". Now I haven't dug into it deep enough to determine if they possibly use a different formulation in Germany that they do in the USA but I seriously doubt it. This being the case, and based upon the laws in Europe, would this not lend some level of proof that Mobil 1 Racing 4T is indeed at least a Group IV oil? By the way, the Castrol that is sold here as Full Synthetic is NOT labeled a Synthetic on the German websites.
Zelthian Posted May 27, 2018 Author #38 Posted May 27, 2018 There is one thing that I picked up on though that piqued my interest. It was stated that though highly refined Group III oils could be marketed and sold in the USA as Full Synthetics, the same is not the case in Germany and other European countries. That prompted me to do some searching because many have speculated that when Mobil 1 lost their lawsuit against Castrol, they caved in and started using a group III base for their own products. I've never seen any proof of that but I've seen it posted in many places. It wasn't a lawsuit; Mobil filed a complaint with the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau. Splitting hairs, admittedly, and the result is the same. Where I think we get hung up is on the definition of the word "Synthetic". We tend to think of "Synthetic" as meaning something along the lines of, "Produced from base chemicals, not borne from natural oil from the ground". The way that the NAD decided, seeming, that it should be defined is along the lines of, "anything created (thus, synthesized) from naturally occurring products". Thus, by their definition, gasoline is a synthetic product since it doesn't exist in nature, but is created from (synthesized) from oil. In terms of oil, once you start separating components out and using the hydrogen injection method to re-string the hydrocarbons (one of the videos linked in this thread explains this, IIRC), then the oil is no longer in a state found in nature, and thus it has been synthesized and can be marketed as "Synthetic". Not saying I agree, mind. Marketing in the USA is full of this, "well, technically, if you look at it this way" crap; why should motor oil be any different? It just means we have to take any claim of "Synthetic" oil skeptically until it can be determined what exactly is in the oil. Most of the oil company websites offer an SDS for each of their oils. Some of these are very detailed, others are not. I like the ones from Redline, as they tend to use language in their component section that clearly spells out composition of the base oil (and, occasionally, some of the additives). In contrast, Amsoil's SDSs are less forthcoming, and Royal Purple's links on their SDS page simply end up back at their individual product pages. Kudos to Redline, but otherwise not a reliable way to figure this out, sadly. I guess you could call and ask. I may do that this week, starting with Royal Purple. I'm wouldn't be surprised if they weren't aware their SDS page was broken.
Freebird Posted May 27, 2018 #39 Posted May 27, 2018 I get all of that. All I'm saying is that the NAD ruling didn't apply to oils sold in Europe. The labeling there still requires that a Synthetic meets the more stringent guidelines as Mobil 1 had argued for. Mobil 1 is still labeled as Fully Synthetic there.
Zelthian Posted May 27, 2018 Author #40 Posted May 27, 2018 I get all of that. All I'm saying is that the NAD ruling didn't apply to oils sold in Europe. The labeling there still requires that a Synthetic meets the more stringent guidelines as Mobil 1 had argued for. Mobil 1 is still labeled as Fully Synthetic there. Wouldn't it be cool if all of the oil companies started a campaign where they adopted a policy of uniform labeling between Europe and USA? Kudos to Mobil1.
American Posted May 30, 2018 #41 Posted May 30, 2018 I get all of that. All I'm saying is that the NAD ruling didn't apply to oils sold in Europe. The labeling there still requires that a Synthetic meets the more stringent guidelines as Mobil 1 had argued for. Mobil 1 is still labeled as Fully Synthetic there. Mobil still makes full synthetic oils the problem is trying to figure out which ones are still full synthetic, i.e. group IV PAO/V ester. Mobil makes some very fine oils, Amsoil gets a bum rap as well because their API certified oils are group III hydro cracked conventional oil but the rest of their line up is still group IV PAO with some group V ester added. It has been a while since I did a lot of research on oil but in the past the Mobil One motorcycle oils were group IV PAO oils and not group III hydro cracked conventional oil, being they are used in air cooled engines both their 10w-40 and their V-Twin 20w-50 I don't see Mobil down grading their motorcycle line. Pennzoil is all GTL (gas to liquid) group III+, still not a lot of information on it outside of what Shell has released on it as Shell owns the patents on the GTL process and Shell owns Pennzoil. Shell synthetic's are also GTL group III+. Castrol when you can find the bottle made in Germany for their automotive oil I forget the weight of it was a full group IV PAO synthetic, it is the rest of the Castrol synthetic line up that is likely group III hydro cracked. Royal Purple API oil is Group III hydro cracked, that happened when Royal Purple was sold and the new owners wanted the API symbol on the bottles, the Royal Purple HPS series oil is still group IV PAO with group V ester added to it. I doubt Royal Purple motorcycle oils are group III hydro cracked but still their group IV/V formula due to them being used in air cooled engines. Redline is known for and advertises their group V ester base oils. Back to Mobil One it is the automotive versions they sell that are harder to figure out which ones are group III hydro cracked and which ones are group IV PAO.
American Posted June 2, 2018 #42 Posted June 2, 2018 I have been searching and found this regarding trying to use an SDS sheet to determine what the formula of an oil is. This statement should make it clear that the SDS sheet is not going to determine the formula of any brand of oil including Redline oils. Having said that Philips Petroleum who bought Redline some time back has now come out with a professional grade of Redline oils that is clearly marked and they clearly state that it is made with group III/group IV PAO base stocks and meets manufacture/API guidelines for the latest standards. This all has to do with emissions equipment on vehicles having to be warrantied for so many years. I hope this clears up that you can't use a SDS to determine an oils formula. Here is the statement: The SDS is intended to report hazardous ingredients as well as potential dangers, precautions, and proper handling. Most ester base oils are not considered hazardous and are usually not reported, although a supplier may list non-hazardous ingredients if they wish. PAOs are also non-hazardous, indeed they are food grade, yet it seems every SDS does list them. Might be some rules related to petroleum based hydrocarbons. Here is another statement from the same source who is a consultant in the oil industry. There are three ways to reasonably know the basestock PAO/ester/mineral oil ratios in a motor oil: 1. Ask the manufacturer (good luck) 2. Break into their laboratory and steal their formulations (good luck) 3. Run a gas chromatogram Making estimates from physical properties such as aniline points, densities, and C=O absorbance without knowing which PAOs, which esters, and which additives are used may be a fun exercise, but borders on folly and obsession.
American Posted June 2, 2018 #43 Posted June 2, 2018 (edited) I would like to point out one more thing that many don't know: Synthetic oil is not more slippery than conventional oil, it is a misconception that synthetics are more slippery. What allows a synthetic oil to provide better protection is the molecules as I already posted a conventional oils molecules are different sizes and shapes, example: 00ooOO0oOdddDQqq The smaller molecules get used up faster in a conventional oil and when the oil is between metal surfaces (bearing, metal gears) it is the larger molecules doing the work and the smaller molecules are there but don't provide the same support, in the case of gears which our primary/transmissions have the smaller molecules also get used up faster leaving just the larger molecules to carry on the work load. A synthetic oil on the other hand is made in a lab and every molecule is the the same as the next so when synthetic oil is between that bearing surface or gear surface every molecule is providing the same amount of protection. Notice I said protection and not making it more slippery because synthetic is not more slippery than conventional oil. This is an example of synthetic oil molecules: OOOOOOOOOOOOOO Now compare the synthetic molecules to the conventional oil molecules and you decide which oil you would rather have protecting your engine/gearbox. For me it is synthetic oils and in my case I prefer Redline oils for their group V ester based base stocks. That in no way means that a group IV PAO oil is not just as good a choice for protecting your engine/gearbox. Both are excellent oils and will provide the best protection possible. One last point and that is group V esters are positive polarity which means they cling to metal surfaces which aids in cold startups where the majority of an engines wear takes place. That is why many group IV synthetics and even some semi-synthetic oils will contain some group V ester in them. Edited June 2, 2018 by American
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now