Let's have a focused thread on Oil Groups and Synthetic Oil

[Zelthian]

It'll be good to get all the info on this in one thread, methinks. I'll start with a few blog posts from Amsoil. Please feel free to add info (with links to references please) to add to the knowledge base.

 

A Beginners Guide To Motor Oil

 

How Much Synthetic Is In My Oil

A good post on the definitions of Group I - Group V oils

 

Are all Synthetic Oil Groups the Same? Group III vs IV vs V

A great post on what make a good oil from a generic perspective. Some interesting quotes:

• "Generally speaking, Group IV base oils offer the best performance, Group III second best, and so on in reverse order. But be forewarned – there are exceptions. And, you can’t judge motor oil performance solely on base oil type. You must take into account its entire formulation, including the additives."
  
• "Some motor oils made from Group III oils can outperform some Group IV motor oils. That’s because the final formulation is a function of the base oils and additives working in tandem."
  
• "In fact, some Group V oils are completely unsuitable for automotive use."
  
• "Try not to get caught up in the “my-base-oil-versus-your-base-oil” cage match. The base oils that go into the oil aren’t as important to your engine as the performance that comes out of the oil. Look for motor oils that offer performance claims backed by industry-standard testing or real-world results. That’s what’s really important."
  

Should I Warm Up My Motorcycle Before Riding?

 

• "About one minute is plenty of time to allow the piston and other parts to gradually expand and ensure good oil circulation to the upper end. Most riders start the engine and spend a minute or two putting on their helmet and preparing to ride. Once they’re ready, so is the bike."
  

What Happens if I Use the Wrong Weight (Viscosity) of Oil?

A good breakdown of this question.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Zelthian

[cowpuc]

I have used Walmart Super Tech and Dollar Store non energy conserving dino oils for many many years in my Ventures.. I run 20/50 exclusively in the summer temps when touring and swap out my oils by color and/or notchiness in shifting instead of odometer mileage and have found that 3 or 4k miles per oil change is really pushing the edge = oils cheap.. Out of 6 1st gens all ending with well over 225k miles on em, I only lost 1 to bearing failure,, (crank bearings) but it was one of my real early ones that I beat on pretty hard (had a set of home made headers on it - would sit on main street at the Sturgis Rally and put a noise revved up whoopin on those HD's ,, also pulled many many 200 foot plus 2nd gear burnouts with the poor thing,, wick er up and smoke em down) and it still ran out to 265k miles and actually got me home to Michigan from a west coast run with its crank bearings rattling even louder than one of those new clacker Polaris Indian 111's as shown in video below..

Thats all I know about oil......

Puc

 

P.S. - you should do another thread like this about tires,, I know alot about them too:happy34:

 

[American]

This could be a good thread as long as the Amsoil propaganda is left out, Group V automotive oils are all fine for automotive use, in fact even Amsoil has been known to add some group V synthetic to some of their oils. Amsoil sells two groups of oil, group III and group IV.

 

Amsoil make a good product, but the four ball wear test is a joke, it was not designed to measure motor oils. That is my sole gripe with Amsoil is their marketing is so outlandish considering their product does not need such marketing ploys.

 

Yes there are group V oils that are not suitable for automotive use and those group V oils are not marketed for automotive use. That was a scare tactic by Amsoil against Redline, Motul and Mobil One as they have oils that use group V synthetics in them and I believe at one time not sure if Mobil One still does but they did have a group V oil as well.

Edited May 25, 2018 by American

[American]

The thing to remember is that our transmissions/primary's are gear driven and the Yamaha design of this engine lubricates the engine, primary and transmission, being this is a shared sump type system that is all gear driven it is harder on the oil.

 

Group II oils have viscosity modifiers added to them and group II oils are conventional oils so the oils molecules are all different sizes with the smaller molecules getting used up quickest due to the gear style system shearing them. That is why group II oils require viscosity modifiers to assist them with durability.

 

Group III oils are just higher refined conventional oils that remove more of the impurities from the oil but it still has different size molecules and requires viscosity modifiers like its group II brother. Mobil filed a complaint against Castrol oil with an advertising board (NAD) saying that group III oils are not synthetic oils as Castrol oil had started labeling their group III oils as full synthetic. The advertising board sided with Castrol oil allowing them to label their group III oils as full synthetic oils. The same group III oil labeled as full synthetic in America can not be labeled as synthetic in Germany/Europe as they do not allow group III refined oils to be labeled full synthetic. The extra refining of a group III oil is also called hydro cracked which is just another term for the higher refinement.

 

Group III+ is a newer class of conventional oil that is PROCESSES FOR CONVERTING NATURAL GAS INTO LIQUIDS.

It is also called GTL for gas to liquid, these oils are made by Shell who holds the patents on this process and is closer to a group IV synthetic. There is not a lot of information on group III+.

 

Group IV oils are true synthetic meaning every molecule is the same as all the others, that is why group IV oils do not require viscosity modifiers, group IV oils are PAO made from polyalphaolefins.

 

Group V oils are all other synthetics not in group IV category like esters. In group V oils every molecule is the same as all the others. Ester does have one advantage with that being ester is a positive charge so it clings to metal parts aiding in cold starts. That is why you will find group V ester added to a lot of group IV, III and even semi-synthetic oils.

 

My preference is to run a full group V ester based oil.

 

It should be noted that the only oils certified for use in turbine engines are group V ester based oils, no group I, II, III, III+ or IV oil can withstand the high temp environment of a turbine engine.

 

Being we are running an air/oil cooled designed engine I like knowing that I will never have to worry about my group V oil breaking down due to heat if I get stuck in some traffic.

 

Here is a rough example of what I am talking about when I refer to the size of molecules in the oil make up.

 

The two straight lines represent bearing surface or gear surface and the upper case, lower case "o" and number zero will represent the molecules.

 

 

_____________________________________________

OO0oo00OOoooO0OOo0O00OO0o000ooOOOO0o0oO

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Assume the bottom line is touching the molecules.

 

Notice the different shapes of the molecules with the larger ones touching the bearing surfaces and smaller ones not touching all of the bearing surface. Also the smaller molecules will be sheared quicker braking down the oil viscosity and that is why viscosity enhancers have to be added.

 

 

Now here is a group IV or V true synthetic oil.

 

____________________________________________

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Assume the bottom line is touching the molecules.

 

See how every molecule is touching the bearing or gear surface? that means more protection, plus there is no need to add viscosity enhancers.

 

This is just a basic explanation of the groups of oils and the difference between a true synthetic oil and group II, III, III+ oils. Group I oils are very lightly refined and not used in engines outside of antique engines and will be a non detergent oil so group I oils are not used in todays engines at all.

Edited May 25, 2018 by American

[American]

The above is a good basic break down without any oil manufactures slant, with the breakdown of each group of oil in the above post everyone can decided which group they want to go with, Group III and III+ oils will be cheaper than Group IV oils which will be a little cheaper than a full Group V oil.

 

I personally currently use Redline Group V oils in all my vehicles, Star Venture, Honda Civic with 1.5 Liter Turbo and my Ram 2500 with its 6.4 Liter Hemi.

 

One advantage Group V ester oils have over Group III, III+ and IV is Group V ester has a positive charge while allows it to cling to metal parts in the engine, transmission and primary. That is why Semi-Synthetics, Group III and Group IV oils some times include some Group V ester in them.

 

I have used Royal Purple in the past and right now if I was to use Royal Purple in my car or truck it would be their HPS series oil, I have used Mobil One in the past as well but it has been years since I have used Mobil One. Pennzoil is owned by Shell and they are a Group III+ Gas To Liquid (GTL) oil. Not much information is really available on GTL oils and Shell owns the patents on the process.

 

Castrol Oil I tend to stay away from because they are the company that started the Group III conventional oil being labeled as a full synthetic when it is really just a more refined conventional oil so I personally don't use Castrol because of that.

Edited May 25, 2018 by American

[American]

I would like to address the Amsoil viscosity question, our 113 CI engines can use 10w-40 all the way up to 20w-50 with 15w-50 and 20w-40 in between them.

 

Victory forums used to say don't you dare run anything other than 20w-40 victory brand oil or your clutch will slip and your engine will blow up. All hog wash, I used Redline 20w-50 in my victory as well as 10w-40 Redline without any issues and zero clutch slippage. Funny thing is when Victory released the Octane bikes I think they named them Victory released a 10w-60 full synthetic oil for them and right on the bottle it states can be used in all Victory engines.

 

Harley Davidson uses 20w-50 or 20w-60 in their V-twins.

 

Unless you are going way outside of the weight range you are unlikely to ever run into any issues with the weight of the oil.

 

Remember the second number in a multi weight oil is the actual weight of the oil while the first number means that it is capable of flowing like a lower weight oil when cold.

 

I am sorry, Amsoil makes a good oil but man their propaganda really makes them look bad. It all comes from their Amway marketing approach.

[Zelthian]

American, you posted a lot of things here. There's a lot to read, but let me ask/comment on a few things.

 

 

This could be a good thread as long as the Amsoil propaganda is left out

 

One company's info is another company's propaganda. The blog post info I posted may be geared to be favorable to Amsoil, but at the least they put it out here for public scrutiny. I don't see other oil companies offering similar info on their websites. Mobile1 has some very basic stuff, but nothing to the level that the Amsoil blog provides. I would really like other sources posted here (links, give us links!), so folks, please provide them.

 

 

Amsoil make a good product, but the four ball wear test is a joke, it was not designed to measure motor oils.

 

Can you provide a link to the test Amsoil does (a video would be great), and a related critique?

 

 

The above is a good basic break down without any oil manufactures slant, with the breakdown of each group of oil

One advantage Group V ester oils have over Group III, III+ and IV is Group V ester has a positive charge while allows it to cling to metal parts in the engine, transmission and primary. That is why Semi-Synthetics, Group III and Group IV oils some times include some Group V ester in them.

 

Can you share where you found this information?

 

 

Unless you are going way outside of the weight range you are unlikely to ever run into any issues with the weight of the oil.

 

On this we can agree.

 

 

That was a scare tactic by Amsoil against Redline, Motul and Mobil One as they have oils that use group V synthetics in them and I believe at one time not sure if Mobil One still does but they did have a group V oil as well.

I personally currently use Redline Group V oils in all my vehicles, Star Venture, Honda Civic with 1.5 Liter Turbo and my Ram 2500 with its 6.4 Liter Hemi.

All hog wash, I used Redline 20w-50 in my victory as well as 10w-40 Redline without any issues and zero clutch slippage.

 

Ok, American, we get it. You use Redline oil. Seriously, are you a Redline Employee/Salesman/Stockholder or something?

[American]

 

Video about oils.

[American]

This is what the four ball wear test was designed for. Extreme pressure lubricants.

 

https://www.nyelubricants.com/tribological-testing-by-4-ball-methods

[h=3]4 Ball Extreme-Pressure[/h]The measurement of Extreme-Pressure properties of a lubricating grease using the 4 Ball method is designated under the ASTM-D 2596. The purpose of this testing is to determine the load carrying capabilities of a lubricating grease under high load applications.

The 4 Ball EP test machine operates in a sliding or rolling motion. A single stainless steel ball rotates onto three stainless balls, all of which are completely coated with a lubricant film, or “boundary”, held stationary in the form of a cradle.

The ability of a grease to perform under extreme pressure conditions is determined by the load wear index (LWI). Three measurements go into determining the LWI. Imagine the test as a routine traffic light. The first measurement, the last non-seizure load (LNSL), is the highest applied load that exists when there is still lubrication between the 4 balls, or the “green light”. The load is then increased until the lubricant film no longer exists and there is metal to metal contact and the 2nd measurement, seizure region, occurs, or the “yellow light”. Finally the load is increased until catastrophic welding occurs, and the final measurement is determined, or the “red light”. Welding can be detected if any of the following are noticed:

 

• The friction-measuring device undergoes a sharp transverse movement
  
• Increased noise level of the motor
  
• Smoking from the ball pot
  
• A sudden drop in the lever arm
  
• An average ball scar over 4mm is recorded
  

Using the values of these parameters, the Load-Wear Index can be calculated, which gives a numerical value to compare a grease’s ability to prevent wear at applied loads. Based on this value, one can formulate greases with different levels of extreme pressure properties.

[American]

http://xenum.com/en/home/company/technology/ester-oil/

 

Ester oil is a synthetic lubricant. In the formulations of synthetic oils are commonly used 3 kinds of synthetic base oils:

 

• POLY ALPHA OLEFINS (PAO): The most popular and widely used (ingredient?) in synthetic and semi synthetic oils. PAO have a very good resistance to high temperatures and low volatility.
  
• HYDRO CRACKED BASE (HC): Is not really synthetic product, but a mineral oil that was hydro treated in order to obtain synthetic ‘performance’. HC is a good lubricant but has higher volatility than PAO.
  
• ESTER OILS: They have been used in lubrication for over 60 years as the favourite base oil in many severe applications. Their properties solve problems and ensure substantial improvement for lubricating products.
  

In automotive applications, the first synthetic engine oils, were in fact based entirely on ester formulations and these products were quite successful.

[h=2]POLAR MOLECULES[/h]Ester molecules are medium to very polar. This means they possess an electrostatic charge as a result of the opposing charges. Polarity of oil, comes with certain interesting properties:

[h=4]• LUBRICITY[/h]Polarity causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules line up on the metal surface creating a tough film with enhanced adhesion properties.

That translates into a strong and persistent film providing superior lubricity, lower energy (fuel) consumption and reduced wear.

[American]

Ok, American, we get it. You use Redline oil. Seriously, are you a Redline Employee/Salesman/Stockholder or something?

 

Just a consumer, I was very clear in my posts that here is a breakdown of the different groups pick what group you feel will work best for you, I have not said use Redline or else, I have stated I use Redline oils and they work for me, not everyone will pay the cost of Redline oils, I will, but again no where have I said you must use Redline oils, I mentioned other brands as well.

[Zelthian]

Just a consumer, I was very clear in my posts that here is a breakdown of the different groups pick what group you feel will work best for you, I have not said use Redline or else, I have stated I use Redline oils and they work for me, not everyone will pay the cost of Redline oils, I will, but again no where have I said you must use Redline oils, I mentioned other brands as well.

 

Fair enough.

 

The video you posted is actually one I had seen before, but it didn't register in my mind as a Redline video. Good stuff. I'm going to add Redline to my rotation of oils to try in my bike.

 

This is what the four ball wear test was designed for. Extreme pressure lubricants.

 

https://www.nyelubricants.com/tribological-testing-by-4-ball-methods

 

This reminds me very much of this video from Royal Purple:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UBof6Naj10

 

I am VERY skeptical of this video. I'd wager a few bucks the oil they used here may not be a QUALITY "full synthetic product from a major oil company", but that's just the cynic in me, I guess.

 

Thanks for posting the links and the info! I'm diving in and learning stuff!

[American]

This video from Yamalube also mentions the polarity of ester group V.

 

[Zelthian]

This video from Yamalube also mentions the polarity of ester group V.

 

 

Some oil makers still say to use conventional oil during break-in. Here they say synthetic can be used, while others have a break-in specific synthetic. Seems to be a lack of consensus.

[American]

Fair enough.

 

The video you posted is actually one I had seen before, but it didn't register in my mind as a Redline video. Good stuff. I'm going to add Redline to my rotation of oils to try in my bike.

 

 

 

This reminds me very much of this video from Royal Purple:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UBof6Naj10

 

I am VERY skeptical of this video. I'd wager a few bucks the oil they used here may not be a QUALITY "full synthetic product from a major oil company", but that's just the cynic in me, I guess.

 

Thanks for posting the links and the info! I'm diving in and learning stuff!

 

That is the old one armed bandit machine, I don't put any stock in that machine as again it is being used for something it was not designed for.

 

Our engines will never put the extreme pressures on the oil that the one arm bandit or the four ball wear test puts on the oil.

 

I think Amsoil makes a fine oil, I have never personally ever used Amsoil but I would not tell someone not to use it. I just have never been in a position to try it for myself. I just hate how Amsoil advertises because their oil is good enough not to need to use some of the stuff they put out in print.

 

I am a big believer in full synthetic oils meaning Group IV and Group V synthetics not the Group III hydro cracked conventional oils that are called full synthetic all because of the NAD (National Advertising Division) decided that a little extra removal of impurities qualified Group III oils as full synthetics when they still can't match what a true Group IV or V synthetic oil can do.

[BlueSky]

In auto oils, "Full Synthetic" in almost all cases means Group III oil. I don't know of a PAO Group IV oil. Mobil 1, Amsoil, all the oils are mostly Group III with maybe some PAO or Ester added. Mobil 1 was a Group IV PAO oil until the court decided it was okay for Castrol to market a Group III oil as "synthetic". That caused Mobil and maybe everybody else to switch to Group III because it was cheaper to produce. I don't know what is in motorcycle oils because all the oil companies consider their formulations proprietary. Mobil used to brag about their oil being a PAO but not any more because it isn't. On the truck forum I read, a member works in an oil co. lab and he was the one who corrected me when I posted that Amsoil was still a Group IV PAO oil. He also told us many times we were wasting our money buying "synthetic" because he has access to the oil testing. He used Group II Pennzoil or Havoline in his truck and ran it 7500 miles testing it along the way. I think PUC is the smartest oil purchaser. The proof is in the pudding. If you can get a minimum of 225k miles out of your old $1200 bike using cheap oil, why not.

[Zelthian]

In auto oils, "Full Synthetic" in almost all cases means Group III oil. I don't know of a PAO Group IV oil. Mobil 1, Amsoil, all the oils are mostly Group III with maybe some PAO or Ester added. Mobil 1 was a Group IV PAO oil until the court decided it was okay for Castrol to market a Group III oil as "synthetic". That caused Mobil and maybe everybody else to switch to Group III because it was cheaper to produce. I don't know what is in motorcycle oils because all the oil companies consider their formulations proprietary. Mobil used to brag about their oil being a PAO but not any more because it isn't. On the truck forum I read, a member works in an oil co. lab and he was the one who corrected me when I posted that Amsoil was still a Group IV PAO oil.

 

Check the beginning of this thread:

 

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/950368/1

 

There was not and never has been any suit AT LAW regarding the use of the term "synthetic" for Group III base oil, and no court or ALJ has made a ruling on this matter. Mobil simply filed a complaint with the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau in the US claiming that Castrol was engaging in false advertising by calling Syntec "full synthetic" since it was now being made with Group III base oil. Castrol was able to present enough "evidence" to convince the NAD that Group III base oil could legitimately be called synthetic, so they rulled in Castrol's favor. This ruling has no "legal" standing. It merely means that as far as the NAD is concerned, an oil company is not falsely advertising an oil as "full synthetic" if that oil is made from Group III base oil.

 

 

The NAD is merely a self-regulatory arm of the BBB and has no legal standing whatsoever in the U.S. Hence, their ruling in this matter does not make it "legal" to claim that a Group III oil is "synthetic." It merely means that for any entity willing to abide by the NAD's guidelines, a Group III oil can be ADVERTISED under those guidelines as a synthetic.

 

There is also an article here:

 

http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/Press%20Releases/Lubes_N_Greases/motor%20oils%20day%20in%20court.pdf

 

Point being, this wasn't done in the courts.

 

 

Also, it may be that whether AMSOIL is Group III or Group IV depends on which version of the oil you're talking about. Check out this video from 2010:

 

 

This may have changed, of course, but it's worth considering.

[American]

Check the beginning of this thread:

 

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/950368/1

 

 

 

There is also an article here:

 

http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/Press%20Releases/Lubes_N_Greases/motor%20oils%20day%20in%20court.pdf

 

Point being, this wasn't done in the courts.

 

 

Also, it may be that whether AMSOIL is Group III or Group IV depends on which version of the oil you're talking about. Check out this video from 2010:

 

 

This may have changed, of course, but it's worth considering.

 

Correct this deal about group III oils was never filed as a law suit, but I find it hard to swallow that NAD is the determining factor about what a full synthetic oil is in America. In Germany the same group III oil labeled as full synthetic in America can not be labeled as a synthetic oil over there because it is not a synthetic oil. Germany got that one right and the NAD got it completely wrong.

 

Any engine can survive on conventional oil, the difference is you have to change conventional oil at shorter intervals or you will end up with sludge build up.

 

Synthetic oils have a big advantage over conventional oils in that Group IV PAO and Group V Ester oils naturally clean the engine where a conventional oil requires all the detergents to be added to them and you can still get sludge build up with a Group III conventional oil if it is not changed at shorter intervals.

 

For me I will stick with synthetics, most people change their oil way to soon as it is.

[BlueSky]

Like always, it's about making money. Mobil could advertise the cheaper Group III as synthetic so that is what they did.

[American]

In auto oils, "Full Synthetic" in almost all cases means Group III oil. I don't know of a PAO Group IV oil. Mobil 1, Amsoil, all the oils are mostly Group III with maybe some PAO or Ester added. Mobil 1 was a Group IV PAO oil until the court decided it was okay for Castrol to market a Group III oil as "synthetic". That caused Mobil and maybe everybody else to switch to Group III because it was cheaper to produce. I don't know what is in motorcycle oils because all the oil companies consider their formulations proprietary. Mobil used to brag about their oil being a PAO but not any more because it isn't. On the truck forum I read, a member works in an oil co. lab and he was the one who corrected me when I posted that Amsoil was still a Group IV PAO oil. He also told us many times we were wasting our money buying "synthetic" because he has access to the oil testing. He used Group II Pennzoil or Havoline in his truck and ran it 7500 miles testing it along the way. I think PUC is the smartest oil purchaser. The proof is in the pudding. If you can get a minimum of 225k miles out of your old $1200 bike using cheap oil, why not.

 

Amsoil still makes group IV synthetic oils, their Group III oils are the ones that meet the current API guidelines.

 

Mobil One did change some of their oils over to Group III but they still do make a group IV PAO synthetic as well. The problem with Mobil One is they make so many different versions of Mobil One that it is hard to figure out the one that is still made with Group IV PAO synthetic.

 

Shell/Pennzoil are both GTL (Gas To Liquid) process which is being called a Group III+ by most people and it comes the closest to Group IV PAO synthetic oil.

 

Redline oils are all Group V ester synthetics. Motul as well makes a group V synthetic and it is said but I can't confirm it one of the many different Mobil One blends is a Group V ester synthetic as well.

 

If you change your oil every three thousand miles a conventional oil will work, over time it will have some build up on the inside of the engine but it will serve you well. Synthetic oil on the other hand will keep your engine cleaner and you can run it longer between each change.

 

Where synthetic oils shine is that time where your engine temp may spike for what ever reason, the conventional oil will be toast and should be changed ASAP if or when that happens, but with a synthetic oil PAO or Ester based they can withstand that temp spike without breaking down and possibly damaging your engine.

 

Phosphorus and Zinc are the two main items the API has called for cutting back, both help to protect the engine. This has lead to some synthetic oil manufactures to create their Group III lines and why their Group IV and V oils are not API certified, they contain more Phosphorus and Zinc than the API allows.

 

Phosphorus and Zinc were reduced because the federal government makes manufactures warranty emissions equipment for as much as eight years and over 100,000 miles, Phosphorus and Zinc can harm catalytic convertors however in a properly running engine it has never been shown to cause any damage. An engine that starts using oil is another matter and that could lead to damaging the catalytic convertor.

 

I have yet to suffer any damage to a catalytic convertor and I use the oils with the higher levels of Phosphorus and Zinc.

Edited May 26, 2018 by American

[American]

Like always, it's about making money. Mobil could advertise the cheaper Group III as synthetic so that is what they did.

 

You can't really blame Mobil as they challenged Castrol for calling their Group III a full synthetic oil, it was NAD that made the decision that oil companies could do that.

 

Sadly the API piggybacked the NAD ruling and now considers Group III hydro Cracked conventional oil a full synthetic. Shame on the API for doing that.

 

It was hard for Mobil to compete with manufactures who were calling their Group III conventional oils full synthetic and charging a lower price while Mobil was using Group IV and Group V synthetic oils which cost more to produce and require a higher price to sell.

 

NAD did all consumers a disservice with their very wrong and bad ruling. The API has also failed all consumers by piggybacking the NAD decision.

[Zelthian]

Redline oils are all Group V ester synthetics.

 

I've been doing some research, and I noticed something. First, there's this page for Redline's 10W40 Motorcycle oil:

 

https://www.redlineoil.com/10w40-motorcycle-oil

 

Key statement on the page:

Full-synthetic with PAO and Ester base stocks and 2200 ppm of ZDDP for antiwear

(emphasis mine)

This would seem to suggest this oil (at least) isn't fully Group V, and is instead at least partially comprised of Group IV PAO base stock.

 

Then there is the Safety Data Sheet (SDS), available here:

 

https://w3apps.phillips66.com/NetMSDS/ViewPDF.aspx?fileName=830003&Language=EN&IssueDate=7%2f6%2f2016&SubFormat=USDS

 

If you look at "SECTION 3: Composition/information on ingredients", the first line in the table shows 1-Dodecene, Homopolymer, Hydrogenated at 48-58% concentration by weight. Note the mention of Hydrogenated which, by other information we have in this thread, suggests that it is created by modifying an organic base, which suggests either a Group III or Group IV base stock. (Wikipedia page on Hydrogenation)

 

This seems to be borne out by this Chevron/Philips article:

 

http://www.cpchem.com/bl/nao/en-us/shglibrary/1-Decene%201-Dodecene%202013%20Final.pdf

 

Key quote from page 2:

Oligomerization of 1-decene or 1-dodecene produces synthetic base fluids for high performance lubricants and functional fluids. These oligomers or polyalphaolefin (PAO) fluids such as Chevron Phillips Chemical Company’s Synfluid PAO have excellent low temperature properties, high viscosity index and low volatility.

The seems to confirm that 1-dodecene is a PAO, not an ester base stock.

 

To be fair, the next two lines mention esters: Phosphorodithioic acid, O,O-di-C1-14-alkyl esters, zinc salts, and then butanedioic acid ((4,5-dihydro-5-thioxo-1,3,4-thiadiazol-2-yl) thio-bis(2-ethylhexyl) ester, but the concentration of these are 1.5-2.5% and 0.2-0.3% respectively. Even at a max total of 2.8%, this is far less than the minimum concentration of the Dodecene at 48%.

 

 

For comparison, I looked at the automotive 5w30 oil that Redline offers, and its page is different:

 

https://www.redlineoil.com/5w30-motor-oil

 

Fully-synthetic ester formula for passenger cars, light trucks, performance vehicles and marine applications

 

This is supported by the SDS of this oil:

 

https://w3apps.phillips66.com/NetMSDS/ViewPDF.aspx?fileName=828863&Language=EN&IssueDate=5%2f11%2f2018&SubFormat=USDS

 

In section three, it lists Synthetic Lubricant Base Oil at greater than 90%.

 

 

TL;DR: It would appear Redline automotive oils are Group V synthetic (ester) base oils, but Redline motorcycle oils are Group IV (PAO) base oils with added ester.

[American]

I've been doing some research, and I noticed something. First, there's this page for Redline's 10W40 Motorcycle oil:

 

https://www.redlineoil.com/10w40-motorcycle-oil

 

Key statement on the page:

 

(emphasis mine)

This would seem to suggest this oil (at least) isn't fully Group V, and is instead at least partially comprised of Group IV PAO base stock.

 

Then there is the Safety Data Sheet (SDS), available here:

 

https://w3apps.phillips66.com/NetMSDS/ViewPDF.aspx?fileName=830003&Language=EN&IssueDate=7%2f6%2f2016&SubFormat=USDS

 

If you look at "SECTION 3: Composition/information on ingredients", the first line in the table shows 1-Dodecene, Homopolymer, Hydrogenated at 48-58% concentration by weight. Note the mention of Hydrogenated which, by other information we have in this thread, suggests that it is created by modifying an organic base, which suggests either a Group III or Group IV base stock. (Wikipedia page on Hydrogenation)

 

This seems to be borne out by this Chevron/Philips article:

 

http://www.cpchem.com/bl/nao/en-us/shglibrary/1-Decene%201-Dodecene%202013%20Final.pdf

 

Key quote from page 2:

 

The seems to confirm that 1-dodecene is a PAO, not an ester base stock.

 

To be fair, the next two lines mention esters: Phosphorodithioic acid, O,O-di-C1-14-alkyl esters, zinc salts, and then butanedioic acid ((4,5-dihydro-5-thioxo-1,3,4-thiadiazol-2-yl) thio-bis(2-ethylhexyl) ester, but the concentration of these are 1.5-2.5% and 0.2-0.3% respectively. Even at a max total of 2.8%, this is far less than the minimum concentration of the Dodecene at 48%.

 

 

For comparison, I looked at the automotive 5w30 oil that Redline offers, and its page is different:

 

https://www.redlineoil.com/5w30-motor-oil

 

 

 

This is supported by the SDS of this oil:

 

https://w3apps.phillips66.com/NetMSDS/ViewPDF.aspx?fileName=828863&Language=EN&IssueDate=5%2f11%2f2018&SubFormat=USDS

 

In section three, it lists Synthetic Lubricant Base Oil at greater than 90%.

 

 

TL;DR: It would appear Redline automotive oils are Group V synthetic (ester) base oils, but Redline motorcycle oils are Group IV (PAO) base oils with added ester.

 

All Group V ester based synthetic oils will contain some Group IV PAO in them, that is for seal compatibility, if they did not contain some Group IV PAO the seals would shrink causing an oil leak, in the beginning Group IV PAO's had the opposite problem in they would cause the seals to swell to much and cause problems.

 

Both issues have been fully worked out now and seal swelling or shrinking is a thing of the past.

[Zelthian]

All Group V ester based synthetic oils will contain some Group IV PAO in them, that is for seal compatibility.

(emphasis mine)

 

In regards to the motorcycle oil, this doesn't hold water. Given the SDS, the motorcycle oil is MINIMUM 48% PAO and MAXIMUM 2.8% ester. The motorcycle OIL is MOSTLY PAO, with SOME Ester, NOT the other way around. You can't call that an ester-based oil. It is not a Group V ester-based oil. Having a maximum 2.8% ester does not qualify as ester-based.

[American]

(emphasis mine)

 

In regards to the motorcycle oil, this doesn't hold water. Given the SDS, the motorcycle oil is MINIMUM 48% PAO and MAXIMUM 2.8% ester. The motorcycle OIL is MOSTLY PAO, with SOME Ester, NOT the other way around. You can't call that an ester-based oil. It is not a Group V ester-based oil. Having a maximum 2.8% ester does not qualify as ester-based.

 

Be careful trying to use product data safety sheets to try and determine what the make up of the oil is, I have yet to see any Redline advertised as anything except Group V ester oil, yes it has Group IV added to for seal compatibility and likely other benefits.

 

Remember also that Group V is not a higher level of synthetic, it is only all the other synthetics that don't fit into the Group IV listing.

 

I have yet to see any manufacture tell anyone what their formula and make up is, the product data safety sheets are solely for hazmat so that emergency response crews will know what chemicals they are dealing with as that will determine how they treat a scene. It is highly unlikely you could ever determine what the true formula of the oil is from those sheets.