WHY air cooled....

[Mad Dog]

Why???

I mean doesn't that add stresses to the metals in the long term?

Water cooled would deliver more power, right?

Can someone ELI5?

I'm looking and loving it ... but this seems like a complete backward step.

Can you guys educate me on this??

 

Thanks

[American]

The engine is actually air/oil cooled, it has a six quart capacity of oil so in a way it does have a form of liquid cooling along with air cooling. Victory was the same way and it works very well. So far I see no issue with it on my 2018 Star Venture Transcontinental.

 

The engineering that went into this V-Twin is pretty impressive. I was in 91 degree temps today and the bike ran fine, I even got stuck on a two lane road with a mile long back up due to construction and was creeping forward for about 10 minutes before we got past the choke point holding up the traffic. Engine ran fine the whole time, did not get overly hot.

 

There is one guy that road a Victory 250,000 miles so I doubt air/oil cooled Yamaha engine is going to have any problems with durability.

Edited May 3, 2018 by American

[Du-Rron]

Why???

Can you guys educate me on this??

 

Thanks

 

We can't. We don't know either.

Thermal dynamics to create horsepower per CC were changed by Yamaha using... Magic....!

The "Air-cooled" holdout Harley, steadfastly now says you need water to cool properly.

Ohhhhh myyyyy head is a spinning.

[vzuden]

Why? They want to copy Harley

[djh3]

Well to be truthful, Harley only cools the Cyl head. From some of the info I have read the cooling of the head helps them get the combustion where they want it. Victory had it pretty dang good. Mine is hot when its 90+ out if you get hung up and stand still. Last year on a trip north the wife and I got stuck in a jam up on I 75. It was a lot of heat off the engine for sure, but when we got rolling 5 min later or so no worse than anything else I have rode I suppose. I hear some reports of the Indian being hot and heat radiating. But the Kawasaki Voyager is all water cooled (jackeded cylinders) and folks b!tc# about the heat on those. I mean heck the old VW's were air/oil cooled and ran great.

[BlueSky]

If the oil cooler had a fan, it probably would stay cool in stop and go traffic. But without it , it has to heat up the oil to higher temperatures than would be seen with water cooling and a fan. Longevity has to be affected but lots of air cooled motorcycles have run over 100k miles reliably. I would think it depends on how much time it spends in stop and go traffic. When I get stuck in traffic on my air cooled Kawasaki, I turn the engine off at the stop lights just in case. It starts immediately so this is not a problem.

[cowpuc]

Why???

I mean doesn't that add stresses to the metals in the long term?

Water cooled would deliver more power, right?

Can someone ELI5?

I'm looking and loving it ... but this seems like a complete backward step.

Can you guys educate me on this??

 

Thanks

 

Fair question, be glad to share what I know Dog but before I do,, just a couple thoughts on some other things that have been mentioned..

Though many folks say one of the reasons that the Polaris's Victory line was a hard sell was because,, astetically - "the jugs look more like an air compressor than a bike engine" (which I always agreed to somewhat - I always thought it was to bad that Polaris didnt do some cosmetic machining on those long/straight barrels to give em some appeal) but the fact of the matter was,, it is my understanding that Polaris actually did something really cool with those jugs in that they actually built "oil jackets" between the actual sleeve of the cylinder that houses the piston and the exterior wall where the fins are molded externally for cooling the cylinders - very similar to water jackets on water cooled bikes.. Neither the new Venture or the Polaris Indians have this, both of them have jugs that are cooled the old fashioned way with cooling fins for air to run across and there are no oil jackets around the cylinders that would allow the oil to absorb the heat..

I LOVED V Dubs and worked on number of them thru the years.. Being a Michigan gear head I also played with snowmobiles (worked in numerous motorcycle shops in the early years which were snowmobile paridises in the winter) a lot.. In the sled world, before Rupp came out with their REALLY cool water cooled Nitro (used the front bumper for a radiator),, the sleds were all "air cooled".. Thing is though,, some of those early sleds were what we called "free air" and others were what we old gear heads called "fan cooled" - the difference being, the "free air" sleds HAD to be kept moving in order to keep them from siezing from over heating where the "fan cooled" sleds had a small belt that ran off a pully on top of the flywheel that spun a fan and the whole apparatus was covered in a shroud.. Those little fan cooled sleds could idle for hours with no problem of siezing or burning down but the "air cooled" - again,, sitting and idling was a HUGE no-no.. Another interesting thing about the fans was, if you were running bogie wheels - you could run em in the summer (a blast) - almost not doable with free air machines - if at all ONLY for a short run.. V Dubs were "fan cooled" not "air cooled" by some folks definition - a fan cooled V Dub motor will maintain its temps (even in fairly hot ambients) really well because it has a constant flow of air being moved across its jugs..

As far as "why" on the step back to air cooling... I happen to have actually been at the world launch for the new Venture out at Lake George last year and can attest first hand that the reason that Yamaha went the route they did by dropping the water cooling and shaft drive and going air cooled, V-Twin belt drive is that a design team made up of "Star Riders" decided it was what the majority of touring folks wanted.. I actually spoke to a couple of folks involved in that decision and I asssure you, that is why Yamaha did what they did.. Personally,, I was SHOCKED when I heard the bikes (they were hidden off stage, waiting for the announcer to point his finger at them to start the bikes) start and KNEW from the sound that all hope was dashed concerning seeing a new Venture with the 1700cc V-Max powerhouse aboard. We didnt get to ride them at Americade but did go out to Sturgis to demo them there and they still had the same air cooled, push rod Vtwin motor in them (I am including a couple vids of the motor under glass for your enjoyment - it is a purdy)...

There were a couple of us here in the club who shared our thoughts on what we thought the new Venture should be long before the new bike was unveiled.. Apparently,, Mom Yam had/has more of a following in the Star forums than here (understandably so IMHO,, those Star Twins like the Strat, Roadliner, Raider, V-Star, Roadie, Virago and on and on out number the V-4 scoots significantly.. One of the Star design experts that was on stage at Lake George and seen in the advertisments for the new bike told me that they belonged to a forum group (I was wearing a "VentureRider.org International" shirt at the time and it caught his attention and he asked about it) and I think it was "Star Touring" = I would LOVE to know how things are going over on that site (or where ever those folks were from) as far as how the new bike is doing there and how much chatter its bringing about.. Unfortunately,, its a closed group with no way to know without paying a club dues (dont blame em a bit).. Although the new air cooled Venture seems to be a hard sell in my immediate local area - I have heard from from folks here that they are a complete sell out north of the border and it sounds like the south too.. I also think the huge market that HD has built and maintained thru the years looked awefully inviting too.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by cowpuc

[MiCarl]

My thinking is that they are ALL air cooled. Some dump the heat directly to the environment and others use a liquid to move the heat to a radiator where the heat is dumped. If you can get enough surface area on the engine (fins) adding the fluid, radiator, pump, plumbing etc. are a waste of money and weight. Also, generally simpler to service because all that plumbing isn't in there.

 

On a V-Twin you can get air all the way around the cylinder and head so there is lots of surface area to dump heat to the air. On a V-4 air cannot circulate around the cylinders so carrying the heat away with a liquid is a must.

[YamahaParExcellence]

If the oil cooler had a fan, it probably would stay cool in stop and go traffic. But without it , it has to heat up the oil to higher temperatures than would be seen with water cooling and a fan. Longevity has to be affected but lots of air cooled motorcycles have run over 100k miles reliably. I would think it depends on how much time it spends in stop and go traffic. When I get stuck in traffic on my air cooled Kawasaki, I turn the engine off at the stop lights just in case. It starts immediately so this is not a problem.

 

Guys, I have to ask this...or maybe I really am getting old...but on a 90 plus day...I have to ask myself, WOULD I, even want to be out on a bike, wearing a helmet, etc...at that outside air temperature. Frankly, I'd rather be in an air-conditioned car!

Do Texan riders really on a regular basis...ride around in that kind of brutal heat...and I can only imagine what the humidex kicks up the 'real feel' to!

[American]

Guys, I have to ask this...or maybe I really am getting old...but on a 90 plus day...I have to ask myself, WOULD I, even want to be out on a bike, wearing a helmet, etc...at that outside air temperature. Frankly, I'd rather be in an air-conditioned car!

Do Texan riders really on a regular basis...ride around in that kind of brutal heat...and I can only imagine what the humidex kicks up the 'real feel' to!

 

I was out riding yesterday and it was 91 degrees, any day riding is better than sitting around doing nothing.

 

Will you feel some heat? Yes, but that is all part of the experience of riding a motorcycle.

[BlueSky]

Guys, I have to ask this...or maybe I really am getting old...but on a 90 plus day...I have to ask myself, WOULD I, even want to be out on a bike, wearing a helmet, etc...at that outside air temperature. Frankly, I'd rather be in an air-conditioned car!

Do Texan riders really on a regular basis...ride around in that kind of brutal heat...and I can only imagine what the humidex kicks up the 'real feel' to!

 

It doesn't have to 90 degrees. No air flow equals overheating. It's as simple as that. Whether is overheats to the point damage is done is anyone's guess but it will heat up the oil.

 

There is a 2009 Los Angeles county review of potential police bikes on the internet that I read. A couple of air cooled Harleys and an air/oil cooled BMW Boxer were included in the comparison. They did a thorough review and one of the things they tested was oil temperature. They did not state what the oil tempertures were for the bikes but they did list the manufacturers maximum allowed oil temperature. For the Harleys, the manufacturer's maximum allowed oil temperature was 410 degrees F. For the air/oil cooled BMW Boxer it was about 300 degrees F as I remember. For the water cooled bikes tested the maximum allowed oil temperature was about 260 degrees F. So, evidently Harley considers oil temperatures of 410 degrees F are acceptable.

[cowpuc]

It doesn't have to 90 degrees. No air flow equals overheating. It's as simple as that. Whether is overheats to the point damage is done is anyone's guess but it will heat up the oil.

 

There is a 2009 Los Angeles county review of potential police bikes on the internet that I read. A couple of air cooled Harleys and an air/oil cooled BMW Boxer were included in the comparison. They did a thorough review and one of the things they tested was oil temperature. They did not state what the oil tempertures were for the bikes but they did list the manufacturers maximum allowed oil temperature. For the Harleys, the manufacturer's maximum allowed oil temperature was 410 degrees F. For the air/oil cooled BMW Boxer it was about 300 degrees F as I remember. For the water cooled bikes tested the maximum allowed oil temperature was about 260 degrees F. So, evidently Harley considers oil temperatures of 410 degrees F are acceptable.

 

As I was dumping the 60 weight oil into my 74 inch air cooled shovelheads crankcase I thought to myself,,, "good grief this stuff pours like straight Motor Honey"... Later on the trip,, as I crossed thru Vegas on the way out to the coast I actually had to bump up another 10 weight cause even the 60 was turning into a water like fluid from the AWESOME desert sun that makes the desert region such a fantastic place to be found on a motorcycle..

[Condor]

If memory serves me correctly I think I watched a video of Harley doing a torture test on their 'new' EVO motor, and it was impressive. Idling for over an hour in an enclosed shed, and then run around a track at high RPM. Then put back in the shed for more idling. They did this several... or more times. Motor performed above and beyond... Puc you remember anything like this??

[YamahaParExcellence]

My thinking is that they are ALL air cooled. Some dump the heat directly to the environment and others use a liquid to move the heat to a radiator where the heat is dumped. If you can get enough surface area on the engine (fins) adding the fluid, radiator, pump, plumbing etc. are a waste of money and weight. Also, generally simpler to service because all that plumbing isn't in there.

 

On a V-Twin you can get air all the way around the cylinder and head so there is lots of surface area to dump heat to the air. On a V-4 air cannot circulate around the cylinders so carrying the heat away with a liquid is a must.

 

A most excellent take on the final cool vector. Well stated!

[BlueSky]

My thinking is that they are ALL air cooled. Some dump the heat directly to the environment and others use a liquid to move the heat to a radiator where the heat is dumped. If you can get enough surface area on the engine (fins) adding the fluid, radiator, pump, plumbing etc. are a waste of money and weight. Also, generally simpler to service because all that plumbing isn't in there.

 

On a V-Twin you can get air all the way around the cylinder and head so there is lots of surface area to dump heat to the air. On a V-4 air cannot circulate around the cylinders so carrying the heat away with a liquid is a must.

 

The point the way I see it is a fan is needed for stop and go city riding. Most water cooled bikes have fans that come on when needed. If an air cooled bike had a fan it might stay as cool in traffic as a water cooled bike but it wouldn't look "right". The air cooled autos of old had big blowers that kept them cool in city driving.

[MiCarl]

I don't disagree that a fan would cause it to cool more.

 

Presumably the engineers get out their fingers and toes and calculate that they have enough cooling without.

[BlueSky]

I don't disagree that a fan would cause it to cool more.

 

Presumably the engineers get out their fingers and toes and calculate that they have enough cooling without.

 

Yeah, it should last long enough for most people. Personally, I think Yamaha should give one to Cowpuc to test by running it 100 mph riding double with a huge pack of camping gear on the back across the southwest desert for hours on end. If it holds up to Cowpuc and Tippy for a couple of summers of touring, it may be worthy of being called a Venture.

[djh3]

Some HD folks have went this route. Love Jugs cooling

[Du-Rron]

Guys, ...Do Texas riders really on a regular basis...ride around in that kind of brutal heat...and I can only imagine what the humidex kicks up the 'real feel' to!

 

Yes...we do.

[Du-Rron]

Some HD folks have went this route. Love Jugs cooling

 

[YamahaParExcellence]

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112433

 

"Now, that was funny!"

[YamahaParExcellence]

Yes...we do.

 

Wow...well, ok! I guess, that if you love motorcycling, and live in Texas...(and hopefully without Ex-es'....) it is...what it is.... The flip side, is that you folks have a much longer riding season, than those of us plopped around the Great Lakes. Even up here, in July, it's not really the actual air temperature, but the combined humidex as well. That is what makes you mostly uncomfortable.

[Du-Rron]

Wow...well, ok!

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?130818-San-Angelo-is-HOT

[snyper316]

Guys, I have to ask this...or maybe I really am getting old...but on a 90 plus day...I have to ask myself, WOULD I, even want to be out on a bike, wearing a helmet, etc...at that outside air temperature. Frankly, I'd rather be in an air-conditioned car!

Do Texan riders really on a regular basis...ride around in that kind of brutal heat...and I can only imagine what the humidex kicks up the 'real feel' to!

 

I live in that Humidex climate zone and will say this there is no way I can really wear my leather jacket... but I will still wear my jeans. As long as I am moving its really not that bad but when you get down below 40mph on a fairing bike you start to feel the heat a little, I think I would role down my motorized windshield...

[YamahaParExcellence]

The following as I see it, needs to be said/typed:

 

I got to ride a 2018 Yamaha Star Venture Trans Continental in an ambient temperature of 81 F today. It hit that where I was in bright sunshine. Whether it would be 85, or even 90, would have truly made no tremendous impact to riding the bike at 81 F.

 

I rode the motorcycle for over 50 miles...(he told me I could...and welcomed my opinion as of coming off years with a Gold Wing. I later found out he bought it for himself, with part of it, being my unbridled enthusiasm in anticipation for mine, and that I left a Gold Wing et al. Where he got it from, I didn't ask. It was in great shape and red!)

 

With all that out of the way. I want to open up by saying that my 'intelligent expectations, were met at a level of 600 per cent. I'd say...my experience was 6 times or more, GREATER, than I would have 'hoped' would be my ride, down country lanes, on the Highway 401, up hills..down into dales, all of it. This motorcycle folks..from a guy who has ridden untold thousands upon thousands of miles in over 50 years uninterrupted, is truly The Ring, that Rules Them All... The ride, the torque on tap from the get go. The open full throttle hell-bent response of this magnificent motor...is AT LEAST as fast up taking as the 118 hp, 6 cylinder Honda Gl1800. The first time I took it from 2-6, at full throttle on Sport Mode, it was snapping my head back..and I had to hold onto the bars, for my body sliding backward! This engine, AND FORGET IT BEING 77 horsepower...my gawd...the torque and PULL this thing has...can put your lips back over your forehead...H.S.!

 

When I was then within my 50 miles, (no 15 minute demo...with bikes all around me...no...I WAS RIDING THIS BABY!!!!) Full throttle pulls, slow progressive shifting at 1200-1500 up shifts, etc...5th and 6th gear low RPM roll outs...all of it... I became angry....yep...real anger...that lots of poor souls, looking for a different ride, perhaps looking for this exact ride...are being misinformed, being 'played' by what I feel, could be a group of forum and YouTube posters, that have an agenda...yes...I said it...(here's the banning banter...) AN AGENDA, to want to see this bike fail...to want to punish Yamaha, for NOT putting 'the' engine that they wanted to see in the 'new' Venture. They hate the choice that Yamaha made...are angry with the choice that Yamaha made...and want to get in their 'shots'....to punish Yamaha...and to PROVE that their engine choice, a large bore, tradiional V-Twin WAS THE WRONG CHOICE! That it was air/oil cooled, and not what they wanted to see in the new rig...a liquid cooled engine...WAS THE WRONG CHOICE....and so...they came, these certain bloggers, riders...to any number of Yamaha Demo Days, to want to ride this big bore, V-Twin configuration, READY, like a gunfighter on the streets of Laredo...ready to pull out, and blast anything they did not like about the bike...and most...c'mon...most already had a bug up their wazoo, BECAUSE of the choices Yama Mama made...that did not align with their hopeful expectations.

 

First off....to all those bloggers who had me worked up that this bike has a really bad HEAT Output problem...and 'Oh...it about cooked my left thigh! Oh...man....I started cookin' at the red light. Oh...jeez...it's so hot, who could ride this bike in 80--90 F temperatures...Oh...Oh...."

 

All you folks...and every one of those 50 miles today, says you are spouting a crock of **##*@@! WHAT HEAT? AGAIN....WHAT BLISTERING AND SO UNCOMFORTABLE HEAT? WHERE? BELOW ME? NOT! ON MY LEFT THIGH? NOT....ON MY LEFT ANKLE...NOT! What a crock of was being blogged and YouTubed out there on these Demo Rides...by folks that had absoltuly NO wish to own...did not WANT to own a V-Twin, air/oil cooled...most were NOT HAPPY WITH YAMAHA in their design...and quite frankly...wanted to dumb down the bike. 'Oh man...this is why I would NOT BUY this bike...". What a load of ##&@*, the all of it.

 

Folks, if you want the truth....and you are open to it...and every SVTC owner on this forum will also tell you....THEY HAVEN'T FELT blistering....uncomfortable...oh 'JEEZ'...heat...being given off by this engine...whether (at 82 F) sitting at a red light LIKE I DID, whether being stuck in 15 minute 401 lane closure back-ups LIKE I DID, running at stop and go for 1 mile LIKE I DID, and then rode slow 30 miles per hour loping along in 3rd/4th like I did...or blasting down the roadway at 60-85 MPH, like I did today...in 5th and 6th.

Folks...with lower level fairing vents open on both sides of the bike for Summer riding, with the two wind deflectors moved inwards to capture cool air, (that they were designed to , and for to be used), there NEVER...let me repeat that...NEVER was a time that this engine, put out MORE heat than my 750 cc in-line four Kawasaki ZR7S!!!!!

 

Yeah..had to shout that...

 

This bike, runs...COOL...cooler in the cockpit, and on my legs and thighs, than even my in-line air/oil cooled Kawa, at only 750 CC's

 

Am I banned yet, Freebird? (hope not...) I believe that after actually riding this bike...experiencing this bike over 50 miles...in traffic, out of traffic, at crawling along, at 30 mph, at 80 mph...by my own, and not somebody's ELSE'S YouTube commentary...that there is absolutely to this man's mind...that there is a conspiracy with intent by some, to see this model, this first year release, and the choices that Yamaha made regarding this bike...TO FAIL...because (sour grapes) it did not match their metrics and expectations. Simply that....

 

I can't imagine how many potential adopters, have been put off...scared off...by quite a few riders...that HAD NO SKIN IN THE GAME...had no intentions of seeing this motorcycle as their possible next...had no intention whatsoever...than came on YouTube, came on varied Forums, and told their tales of SVTC woe..."there was so much heat put out..that I felt it was cooking my leg....blah, blah....B.S....blah.

 

Folks...FORGET their comments, if they had never said, they had gone to the demo, with a true interest in mind...to purchase this bike. Their comments are totally 'glad I didn't buy this...because wow...the heat...the heat nearly cooked my leg..." are biased as H*ll!

 

Forget their comments...heck, forget MY comments...and please...if you want a change up of venue...if you want a new ride, for ANY of your good reasons...and have been dissuaded by what you have read, or what you have 'rode along with' by bloggers such as ..well, I won't name them...

 

You wil be shooting yourself in the foot..if you truly bypass riding this motorcycle for yourself....being sure that the bike has been configured for the season you are riding in....Summer Fall, Spring....open the lower vents...move in the air deflectors to collect cool air...and RIDE...you will surely feel a warmth...but folks...jesus....it is only a nice hugging warmth...that any engine will put out...even my 750 Kawasaki...but in NO WAY, NO WAY, are you going to feel uncomfortable...going to feel that this heat is rider-unbearable. That, my friends...with 50 miles in the saddle...on this magnificent motorcycle...those outlandish comments...is a crock of you-know-what!!!

 

Ride for yourself...and foment your own opinions....not rely on other's riding comments...and heck...even my own here....ride for yourself!

 

If this bans me...then it was a great run, here folks...but it had to be said. Some really bad copy was being published since the reveal...and I, and so many others, must have at some of it, bought into it. I still purchased, on intelligent expectation. My ride today...two days before Charlotte comes home..SHOWED me, that my years of riding...my years of "hmmmm reading that Yamaha Engineers put out a bike that was for some, cooking their legs, thighs, that..but from my experience, over 50 years of riding air, air/oil, liquid cool motorcycles, ....THAT doesn't, or didn't gel, or sounded right"....

 

Folks...my ride today...rewarded my 'intelligent expectations, by over at least 6 times what I had HOPED FOR, to experience. Off the soapbox....but it has to be said....there is a conspiracy of sorts...my ride today made that clear... This bike, runs normal, and runs cool. You feel warmth, you do NOT feel HEAT! You feel no more engine warmth output than any air/oil cooled, inline four 750cc!

 

Cheers

 

Can't wait...and glad that I did NOT make the opinion of another, the Opinion that RULES THEM ALL.

 

And that includes my opinion, quite frankly. If you have ever thought of owning a traditional large bore, high torque at low maintained RPM...then go do yourself a favor....go out for a ride...(put the bike into summer or fall mode...) and see for yourself. Trust me on one thing, you won't be coming back smelling like Prime Rib...sorry, you'll still have to take your lovely co-rider out for dinner, to get that....

 

Joe