WHY air cooled....

[Mad Dog]

Why???

I mean doesn't that add stresses to the metals in the long term?

Water cooled would deliver more power, right?

Can someone ELI5?

I'm looking and loving it ... but this seems like a complete backward step.

Can you guys educate me on this??

 

Thanks

[American]

The engine is actually air/oil cooled, it has a six quart capacity of oil so in a way it does have a form of liquid cooling along with air cooling. Victory was the same way and it works very well. So far I see no issue with it on my 2018 Star Venture Transcontinental.

 

The engineering that went into this V-Twin is pretty impressive. I was in 91 degree temps today and the bike ran fine, I even got stuck on a two lane road with a mile long back up due to construction and was creeping forward for about 10 minutes before we got past the choke point holding up the traffic. Engine ran fine the whole time, did not get overly hot.

 

There is one guy that road a Victory 250,000 miles so I doubt air/oil cooled Yamaha engine is going to have any problems with durability.

Edited May 3, 2018 by American

[Du-Rron]

Why???

Can you guys educate me on this??

 

Thanks

 

We can't. We don't know either.

Thermal dynamics to create horsepower per CC were changed by Yamaha using... Magic....!

The "Air-cooled" holdout Harley, steadfastly now says you need water to cool properly.

Ohhhhh myyyyy head is a spinning.

[vzuden]

Why? They want to copy Harley

[djh3]

Well to be truthful, Harley only cools the Cyl head. From some of the info I have read the cooling of the head helps them get the combustion where they want it. Victory had it pretty dang good. Mine is hot when its 90+ out if you get hung up and stand still. Last year on a trip north the wife and I got stuck in a jam up on I 75. It was a lot of heat off the engine for sure, but when we got rolling 5 min later or so no worse than anything else I have rode I suppose. I hear some reports of the Indian being hot and heat radiating. But the Kawasaki Voyager is all water cooled (jackeded cylinders) and folks b!tc# about the heat on those. I mean heck the old VW's were air/oil cooled and ran great.

[BlueSky]

If the oil cooler had a fan, it probably would stay cool in stop and go traffic. But without it , it has to heat up the oil to higher temperatures than would be seen with water cooling and a fan. Longevity has to be affected but lots of air cooled motorcycles have run over 100k miles reliably. I would think it depends on how much time it spends in stop and go traffic. When I get stuck in traffic on my air cooled Kawasaki, I turn the engine off at the stop lights just in case. It starts immediately so this is not a problem.

[cowpuc]

Why???

I mean doesn't that add stresses to the metals in the long term?

Water cooled would deliver more power, right?

Can someone ELI5?

I'm looking and loving it ... but this seems like a complete backward step.

Can you guys educate me on this??

 

Thanks

 

Fair question, be glad to share what I know Dog but before I do,, just a couple thoughts on some other things that have been mentioned..

Though many folks say one of the reasons that the Polaris's Victory line was a hard sell was because,, astetically - "the jugs look more like an air compressor than a bike engine" (which I always agreed to somewhat - I always thought it was to bad that Polaris didnt do some cosmetic machining on those long/straight barrels to give em some appeal) but the fact of the matter was,, it is my understanding that Polaris actually did something really cool with those jugs in that they actually built "oil jackets" between the actual sleeve of the cylinder that houses the piston and the exterior wall where the fins are molded externally for cooling the cylinders - very similar to water jackets on water cooled bikes.. Neither the new Venture or the Polaris Indians have this, both of them have jugs that are cooled the old fashioned way with cooling fins for air to run across and there are no oil jackets around the cylinders that would allow the oil to absorb the heat..

I LOVED V Dubs and worked on number of them thru the years.. Being a Michigan gear head I also played with snowmobiles (worked in numerous motorcycle shops in the early years which were snowmobile paridises in the winter) a lot.. In the sled world, before Rupp came out with their REALLY cool water cooled Nitro (used the front bumper for a radiator),, the sleds were all "air cooled".. Thing is though,, some of those early sleds were what we called "free air" and others were what we old gear heads called "fan cooled" - the difference being, the "free air" sleds HAD to be kept moving in order to keep them from siezing from over heating where the "fan cooled" sleds had a small belt that ran off a pully on top of the flywheel that spun a fan and the whole apparatus was covered in a shroud.. Those little fan cooled sleds could idle for hours with no problem of siezing or burning down but the "air cooled" - again,, sitting and idling was a HUGE no-no.. Another interesting thing about the fans was, if you were running bogie wheels - you could run em in the summer (a blast) - almost not doable with free air machines - if at all ONLY for a short run.. V Dubs were "fan cooled" not "air cooled" by some folks definition - a fan cooled V Dub motor will maintain its temps (even in fairly hot ambients) really well because it has a constant flow of air being moved across its jugs..

As far as "why" on the step back to air cooling... I happen to have actually been at the world launch for the new Venture out at Lake George last year and can attest first hand that the reason that Yamaha went the route they did by dropping the water cooling and shaft drive and going air cooled, V-Twin belt drive is that a design team made up of "Star Riders" decided it was what the majority of touring folks wanted.. I actually spoke to a couple of folks involved in that decision and I asssure you, that is why Yamaha did what they did.. Personally,, I was SHOCKED when I heard the bikes (they were hidden off stage, waiting for the announcer to point his finger at them to start the bikes) start and KNEW from the sound that all hope was dashed concerning seeing a new Venture with the 1700cc V-Max powerhouse aboard. We didnt get to ride them at Americade but did go out to Sturgis to demo them there and they still had the same air cooled, push rod Vtwin motor in them (I am including a couple vids of the motor under glass for your enjoyment - it is a purdy)...

There were a couple of us here in the club who shared our thoughts on what we thought the new Venture should be long before the new bike was unveiled.. Apparently,, Mom Yam had/has more of a following in the Star forums than here (understandably so IMHO,, those Star Twins like the Strat, Roadliner, Raider, V-Star, Roadie, Virago and on and on out number the V-4 scoots significantly.. One of the Star design experts that was on stage at Lake George and seen in the advertisments for the new bike told me that they belonged to a forum group (I was wearing a "VentureRider.org International" shirt at the time and it caught his attention and he asked about it) and I think it was "Star Touring" = I would LOVE to know how things are going over on that site (or where ever those folks were from) as far as how the new bike is doing there and how much chatter its bringing about.. Unfortunately,, its a closed group with no way to know without paying a club dues (dont blame em a bit).. Although the new air cooled Venture seems to be a hard sell in my immediate local area - I have heard from from folks here that they are a complete sell out north of the border and it sounds like the south too.. I also think the huge market that HD has built and maintained thru the years looked awefully inviting too.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by cowpuc

[MiCarl]

My thinking is that they are ALL air cooled. Some dump the heat directly to the environment and others use a liquid to move the heat to a radiator where the heat is dumped. If you can get enough surface area on the engine (fins) adding the fluid, radiator, pump, plumbing etc. are a waste of money and weight. Also, generally simpler to service because all that plumbing isn't in there.

 

On a V-Twin you can get air all the way around the cylinder and head so there is lots of surface area to dump heat to the air. On a V-4 air cannot circulate around the cylinders so carrying the heat away with a liquid is a must.

[YamahaParExcellence]

If the oil cooler had a fan, it probably would stay cool in stop and go traffic. But without it , it has to heat up the oil to higher temperatures than would be seen with water cooling and a fan. Longevity has to be affected but lots of air cooled motorcycles have run over 100k miles reliably. I would think it depends on how much time it spends in stop and go traffic. When I get stuck in traffic on my air cooled Kawasaki, I turn the engine off at the stop lights just in case. It starts immediately so this is not a problem.

 

Guys, I have to ask this...or maybe I really am getting old...but on a 90 plus day...I have to ask myself, WOULD I, even want to be out on a bike, wearing a helmet, etc...at that outside air temperature. Frankly, I'd rather be in an air-conditioned car!

Do Texan riders really on a regular basis...ride around in that kind of brutal heat...and I can only imagine what the humidex kicks up the 'real feel' to!

[American]

Guys, I have to ask this...or maybe I really am getting old...but on a 90 plus day...I have to ask myself, WOULD I, even want to be out on a bike, wearing a helmet, etc...at that outside air temperature. Frankly, I'd rather be in an air-conditioned car!

Do Texan riders really on a regular basis...ride around in that kind of brutal heat...and I can only imagine what the humidex kicks up the 'real feel' to!

 

I was out riding yesterday and it was 91 degrees, any day riding is better than sitting around doing nothing.

 

Will you feel some heat? Yes, but that is all part of the experience of riding a motorcycle.

[XV1100SE]

Guys, I have to ask this...or maybe I really am getting old...but on a 90 plus day...I have to ask myself, WOULD I, even want to be out on a bike, wearing a helmet, etc...at that outside air temperature. Frankly, I'd rather be in an air-conditioned car!

 

Like when it is cold out you dress for the weather. I've tried leather jackets, textile, and mesh (Tourmaster). Leather and textile you don't get airflow thru the jacket. With the Tourmaster, it has a thermal and a rain liner and when it is hot out you take them out and the air goes thru the mesh, keeping you cooler. Even riding in South Dakota in the Badlands in 110F we were fine. There was no humidity and as we road North to Saskatchewan the humidity kicked in but with the Tourmaster jackets at least we still had airflow. We also have a cooling vest for the extremes.

[BlueSky]

Guys, I have to ask this...or maybe I really am getting old...but on a 90 plus day...I have to ask myself, WOULD I, even want to be out on a bike, wearing a helmet, etc...at that outside air temperature. Frankly, I'd rather be in an air-conditioned car!

Do Texan riders really on a regular basis...ride around in that kind of brutal heat...and I can only imagine what the humidex kicks up the 'real feel' to!

 

It doesn't have to 90 degrees. No air flow equals overheating. It's as simple as that. Whether is overheats to the point damage is done is anyone's guess but it will heat up the oil.

 

There is a 2009 Los Angeles county review of potential police bikes on the internet that I read. A couple of air cooled Harleys and an air/oil cooled BMW Boxer were included in the comparison. They did a thorough review and one of the things they tested was oil temperature. They did not state what the oil tempertures were for the bikes but they did list the manufacturers maximum allowed oil temperature. For the Harleys, the manufacturer's maximum allowed oil temperature was 410 degrees F. For the air/oil cooled BMW Boxer it was about 300 degrees F as I remember. For the water cooled bikes tested the maximum allowed oil temperature was about 260 degrees F. So, evidently Harley considers oil temperatures of 410 degrees F are acceptable.

[cowpuc]

It doesn't have to 90 degrees. No air flow equals overheating. It's as simple as that. Whether is overheats to the point damage is done is anyone's guess but it will heat up the oil.

 

There is a 2009 Los Angeles county review of potential police bikes on the internet that I read. A couple of air cooled Harleys and an air/oil cooled BMW Boxer were included in the comparison. They did a thorough review and one of the things they tested was oil temperature. They did not state what the oil tempertures were for the bikes but they did list the manufacturers maximum allowed oil temperature. For the Harleys, the manufacturer's maximum allowed oil temperature was 410 degrees F. For the air/oil cooled BMW Boxer it was about 300 degrees F as I remember. For the water cooled bikes tested the maximum allowed oil temperature was about 260 degrees F. So, evidently Harley considers oil temperatures of 410 degrees F are acceptable.

 

As I was dumping the 60 weight oil into my 74 inch air cooled shovelheads crankcase I thought to myself,,, "good grief this stuff pours like straight Motor Honey"... Later on the trip,, as I crossed thru Vegas on the way out to the coast I actually had to bump up another 10 weight cause even the 60 was turning into a water like fluid from the AWESOME desert sun that makes the desert region such a fantastic place to be found on a motorcycle..

[Condor]

If memory serves me correctly I think I watched a video of Harley doing a torture test on their 'new' EVO motor, and it was impressive. Idling for over an hour in an enclosed shed, and then run around a track at high RPM. Then put back in the shed for more idling. They did this several... or more times. Motor performed above and beyond... Puc you remember anything like this??

[YamahaParExcellence]

My thinking is that they are ALL air cooled. Some dump the heat directly to the environment and others use a liquid to move the heat to a radiator where the heat is dumped. If you can get enough surface area on the engine (fins) adding the fluid, radiator, pump, plumbing etc. are a waste of money and weight. Also, generally simpler to service because all that plumbing isn't in there.

 

On a V-Twin you can get air all the way around the cylinder and head so there is lots of surface area to dump heat to the air. On a V-4 air cannot circulate around the cylinders so carrying the heat away with a liquid is a must.

 

A most excellent take on the final cool vector. Well stated!

[BlueSky]

My thinking is that they are ALL air cooled. Some dump the heat directly to the environment and others use a liquid to move the heat to a radiator where the heat is dumped. If you can get enough surface area on the engine (fins) adding the fluid, radiator, pump, plumbing etc. are a waste of money and weight. Also, generally simpler to service because all that plumbing isn't in there.

 

On a V-Twin you can get air all the way around the cylinder and head so there is lots of surface area to dump heat to the air. On a V-4 air cannot circulate around the cylinders so carrying the heat away with a liquid is a must.

 

The point the way I see it is a fan is needed for stop and go city riding. Most water cooled bikes have fans that come on when needed. If an air cooled bike had a fan it might stay as cool in traffic as a water cooled bike but it wouldn't look "right". The air cooled autos of old had big blowers that kept them cool in city driving.

[MiCarl]

I don't disagree that a fan would cause it to cool more.

 

Presumably the engineers get out their fingers and toes and calculate that they have enough cooling without.

[BlueSky]

I don't disagree that a fan would cause it to cool more.

 

Presumably the engineers get out their fingers and toes and calculate that they have enough cooling without.

 

Yeah, it should last long enough for most people. Personally, I think Yamaha should give one to Cowpuc to test by running it 100 mph riding double with a huge pack of camping gear on the back across the southwest desert for hours on end. If it holds up to Cowpuc and Tippy for a couple of summers of touring, it may be worthy of being called a Venture.

[djh3]

Some HD folks have went this route. Love Jugs cooling

[Du-Rron]

Guys, ...Do Texas riders really on a regular basis...ride around in that kind of brutal heat...and I can only imagine what the humidex kicks up the 'real feel' to!

 

Yes...we do.

[Du-Rron]

Some HD folks have went this route. Love Jugs cooling

 

[YamahaParExcellence]

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112433

 

"Now, that was funny!"

[YamahaParExcellence]

Yes...we do.

 

Wow...well, ok! I guess, that if you love motorcycling, and live in Texas...(and hopefully without Ex-es'....) it is...what it is.... The flip side, is that you folks have a much longer riding season, than those of us plopped around the Great Lakes. Even up here, in July, it's not really the actual air temperature, but the combined humidex as well. That is what makes you mostly uncomfortable.

[Du-Rron]

Wow...well, ok!

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?130818-San-Angelo-is-HOT

[snyper316]

Guys, I have to ask this...or maybe I really am getting old...but on a 90 plus day...I have to ask myself, WOULD I, even want to be out on a bike, wearing a helmet, etc...at that outside air temperature. Frankly, I'd rather be in an air-conditioned car!

Do Texan riders really on a regular basis...ride around in that kind of brutal heat...and I can only imagine what the humidex kicks up the 'real feel' to!

 

I live in that Humidex climate zone and will say this there is no way I can really wear my leather jacket... but I will still wear my jeans. As long as I am moving its really not that bad but when you get down below 40mph on a fairing bike you start to feel the heat a little, I think I would role down my motorized windshield...