Screwed up, need help!

[Chaharly]

Hey guys, just did the skydoc clutch upgrade and removed the clutch basket to replace the shift roller, but I rounded out its screw and it was in good shape so I left it. I've got everything back together, and now the bike tries to roll in gear. I can hold it with my feet, but its making shifting harder and theres no way to put it in neutral with the engine running. I tried bleeding out the clutch but nothing, it seems like I'm just a touch short on my leverage.

 

I rebuilt my slave cylinder last fall and thinking maybe theres a little crud stuck between it and the case, but I don't know!

 

Any chance for some help please?

[bikenut]

I would try Bleeding the clutch. May have a little air in and will not move enough to disengage the clutch all the way

Good Luck

[gaj1917]

Any chance you missed installing or incorrectly installed #20 or #23 (see attached diagram)?

 

[SpencerPJ]

I agree, sounds like mine when I replaced slave and had air in my line.

Best way I found, loosen reservoir lid, but leave loose on, squeeze clutch all the way, tie off with rope, let sit overnight. The air will naturally rise and come out.

[Condor]

Hey guys, just did the skydoc clutch upgrade and removed the clutch basket to replace the shift roller, but I rounded out its screw and it was in good shape so I left it. I've got everything back together, and now the bike tries to roll in gear. I can hold it with my feet, but its making shifting harder and theres no way to put it in neutral with the engine running. I tried bleeding out the clutch but nothing, it seems like I'm just a touch short on my leverage.

 

I rebuilt my slave cylinder last fall and thinking maybe theres a little crud stuck between it and the case, but I don't know!

 

Any chance for some help please?

 

Here's my thoughts... If you had the clutch basket assembly out to get to the shift roller, somehow you might have flipped a part when putting it back together and the basket isn't setting in all the way. And.... if you had the long and short rods out, a lot of folks don't know this but on one end of both the long and short you'll see a very tiny flat spot. That flat spot goes against the ball and keeps the ball from slipping off the end of the rod and binding against the side wall. If I remember correctly on my first clutch job I reversed the nut with the hollowed out center and had a similar reaction. To get the bike into neutral get it onto the center stand with the rear tire elevated and let it turn while in gear...then shift the tranny into neutral. With pressure on the gears it's a SOB to get it not to jump over neutral... I think??? 2¢

[Chaharly]

Here's my thoughts... If you had the clutch basket assembly out to get to the shift roller, somehow you might have flipped a part when putting it back together and the basket isn't setting in all the way. And.... if you had the long and short rods out, a lot of folks don't know this but on one end of both the long and short you'll see a very tiny flat spot. That flat spot goes against the ball and keeps the ball from slipping off the end of the rod and binding against the side wall. If I remember correctly on my first clutch job I reversed the nut with the hollowed out center and had a similar reaction. To get the bike into neutral get it onto the center stand with the rear tire elevated and let it turn while in gear...then shift the tranny into neutral. With pressure on the gears it's a SOB to get it not to jump over neutral... I think??? 2¢

 

@Condor when you say ride are you talking about the pushrods? I had the short pusherod out and all I saw was a single piece with an O-ring on one end. But I do remember being confused on which way to put that big nut back on! Are you online now?

[Condor]

Condor when you say ride are you talking about the pushrods? I had the short pusherod out and all I saw was a single piece with an O-ring on one end. But I do remember being confused on which way to put that big nut back on! Are you online now?

 

I was talking about the connecting rods between the slave and the throwout bearing in the pressure plate... Sorry just got back on to see if I ended up high bidder on a gun I'm interested in...

[Chaharly]

Any chance you missed installing or incorrectly installed #20 or #23 (see attached diagram)?

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112363

 

 

Well I did have to pull #20 out, but it only goes back in one way, and I never took a ball out or noticed one drop out. Are they magnetic? I wonder if I can stick a magnet in there to see if maybe the ball fell out?

[Chaharly]

I pulled the slave out and messed with it some because I rebuilt that last fall and it always seemed like I had a touch of air in it. I put a little hand pressure on it and pulled in the clutch lever and noticed the slave leaks slightly under pressure, so I'm assuming there's the culprit. I imagine with the old, weak spring, and the noticeably thinner friction plates from being worn, I could put it in gear and it wouldn't roll. I mean I could maybe, just barely, barley notice it before but With all the new stuff in it, Its just not quite clearing it.

 

Got one ordered in from boats.net and I'll let you guys know if this solves it for me!

[Condor]

I pulled the slave out and messed with it some because I rebuilt that last fall and it always seemed like I had a touch of air in it. I put a little hand pressure on it and pulled in the clutch lever and noticed the slave leaks slightly under pressure, so I'm assuming there's the culprit. I imagine with the old, weak spring, and the noticeably thinner friction plates from being worn, I could put it in gear and it wouldn't roll. I mean I could maybe, just barely, barley notice it before but With all the new stuff in it, Its just not quite clearing it.

 

Got one ordered in from boats.net and I'll let you guys know if this solves it for me!

That's why all the old timers recommend replacing it with a new one rather than trying to rebuild one. For the price difference between a rebuild kit and a new slave it doesn't make any sense rebuilding....

[Chaharly]

That's why all the old timers recommend replacing it with a new one rather than trying to rebuild one. For the price difference between a rebuild kit and a new slave it doesn't make any sense rebuilding....

 

 

Well you know us young bucks. Sometimes we just gotta do stuff to see if we can do it... well apparently I can't!

[RDawson]

The title got me. My wife says I'm screwed up and need help all the time. Good luck on the clutch.

[Chaharly]

The title got me. My wife says I'm screwed up and need help all the time. Good luck on the clutch.

 

No fix for guys like us a

[Chaharly]

Any chance you missed installing or incorrectly installed #20 or #23 (see attached diagram)?

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112363

 

Is it possible for that little ball to fall out of the right hand side?

[Condor]

Is it possible for that little ball to fall out of the right hand side?

Yep.... however highly unlikely if you have the bike on the side stand while messing with the clutch. You can check to see if it's in there by getting one of those collapsible magnetic nut retrievers with the skinny magnet on the end and fish them out. The rods and ball are steal and the block is non-magnetic aluminum. You can pull the long, short, and ball out the clutch basket side...

[Chaharly]

Yep.... however highly unlikely if you have the bike on the side stand while messing with the clutch. You can check to see if it's in there by getting one of those collapsible magnetic nut retrievers with the skinny magnet on the end and fish them out. The rods and ball are steal and the block is non-magnetic aluminum. You can pull the long, short, and ball out the clutch basket side...

 

Thanks Condor! You've been a huge help!

[Chaharly]

Alright, so I've got the new slave in. Bled it and it is better, though it still tries to roll while in gear. Not as bad, but you can hear it labor the motor as well. I think I'm going to let it sit overnight and let the remaining air bubbles sort of settle down and hopefully form into less, but bigger air bubbles and first thing tomorrow I'll try to as gently as I can, re bleed the clutch. I read that the reason skydoc replaces the half friction disc, wire and shims is to reduce the friction zone of the clutch. Had I known that before I installed the clutch, I certainly wouldn't have done that mod, and sprung on the half friction disc and new retainer wire.

 

If this doesn't do it then I guess I'm tearing into the clutch to see if I've got something stuck between one of the clutch plates or friction discs.

 

This is kind of disheartening as its 80 today

[Chaharly]

I agree, sounds like mine when I replaced slave and had air in my line.

Best way I found, loosen reservoir lid, but leave loose on, squeeze clutch all the way, tie off with rope, let sit overnight. The air will naturally rise and come out.

 

I'll give that a try now thank you sir!

[Chaharly]

Okay so here's where I'm at now basically. After taking the clutch apart two more times, I found out that that Hollow nut needs to go where the hollow part is towards the inside of the motorcycle or else the inner basket can move in and out. It doesn't sit tight I had it right the first time but I took it apart and switch it out to try it. After that I bled the piss out of the slave cylinder and I still think I must have just a tiny bit of air in there because it's still a little hard to shift and hard to put in neutral it's not nearly as hard to hold in one place but I must still have some tiny microscopic bubbles of air in there. I appreciate all the help!

[7 lakes]

How did the clutch basket look when you had things apart? The contact areas on the basket, where the plate tangs drive the basket, can get roughed up / worn into / deformed by the old plates, its really important that the new plates slide smoothly in the basket. The plates can hang up on the basket and cause your symptom, with new plates come tighter clearances between the plates (more oil drag) and between the plates and the basket (less tolerance for irregularities). If you don't specifically remember the contact areas looking nice and smooth, with square corners, I'd pull the cover and take a look. Probably be hard to judge the surfaces with the plates in, but look at the edge of the contact surfaces, the outer corner of the contact area, and if you see or feel with a fingernail a bead or raised edge on any of those corners then the basket needs to be dressed. That raised, pressure peened edge will cause a new plate without a matching depression to hang up.

 

This is one of those little things that can drive you nuts, the old plates can work fine cause they're worn too, but new plates with sharp corners appreciate properly dressed surfaces to wear into. I've had new plates that needed the tangs dressed too before they would slide smoothly. It can be helpful to visualize that the clutch just relieves spring tension, it doesn't act on the plates, they need to float smoothly to work properly.

 

 

Tim

Edited May 4, 2018 by 7 lakes

[Chaharly]

How did the clutch basket look when you had things apart? The contact areas on the basket, where the plate tangs drive the basket, can get roughed up / worn into / deformed by the old plates, its really important that the new plates slide smoothly in the basket. The plates can hang up on the basket and cause your symptom, with new plates come tighter clearances between the plates (more oil drag) and between the plates and the basket (less tolerance for irregularities). If you don't specifically remember the contact areas looking nice and smooth, with square corners, I'd pull the cover and take a look. Probably be hard to judge the surfaces with the plates in, but look at the edge of the contact surfaces, the outer corner of the contact area, and if you see or feel with a fingernail a bead or raised edge on any of those corners then the basket needs to be dressed. That raised, pressure peened edge will cause a new plate without a matching depression to hang up.

 

This is one of those little things that can drive you nuts, the old plates can work fine cause they're worn too, but new plates with sharp corners appreciate properly dressed surfaces to wear into. I've had new plates that needed the tangs dressed too before they would slide smoothly. It can be helpful to visualize that the clutch just relieves spring tension, it doesn't act on the plates, they need to float smoothly to work properly.

 

 

Tim

 

You know Tim, I think you might be a genius. I never looked at the basket when I had it all apart. I was sort of just following the directions in the tech section but if I had a half a brain I woulda run my finger along to see if it was smooth! That would explain allot too!

 

I'm going to look first thing when I get home! I also happen to have a brand new clutch basket that was supposed to go in my RSV before I wrecked it. If my old one needs work I could probably just throw that other new basket in right? I mean if I have to do sanding on the old one I'll have to take it out anyways right?

[7 lakes]

Not a genius, just been around long enough to screw up a lot of stuff. But hey thanks anyway!

 

I'm even careful to make sure that a clutch stack goes back in the basket exactly the way it came out if it isn't being replaced, just rotating a plate can cause stickiness. A sticky new one if ran long enough can wear itself in and eventually release ok but now you have uneven wear on three plates and when the stack wears enough it can cause chattering or rough engagement. Which the installer will then blame on the brand of plate he used, which "never felt right and wore out quick". Angled wear that can't be seen by eye is enough to cause a symptom.

 

Dressing the basket is easy but a time consuming task best suited for a long winter evening. If you have a new basket I'd throw it in there and see what happens. Can't hurt, I woulda done it with the new stuff and saved the old one for having ready the next time just as SOP. Good idea to check that same contact area corner on the new basket to make sure the casting is nice and smooth there, some times the casting will have a sharp or rough corner and anything that can catch your fingernail can catch a plate. I've had some that needed a little attention with 400 wet paper before I felt they were smooth enough.

 

I've dressed new plates too when needed. It helps to think of these parts as like engine parts that work best after they've seated to each other under lubricated load, except these don't have enough load to accomplish the seating, they'll just work like crap for a long time. You need to "approximate the wear-in" yourself by making sure everything is smooth at the contact surfaces.

 

I'm really curious to see a close up of the old basket.

 

Tim

[Chaharly]

Not a genius, just been around long enough to screw up a lot of stuff. But hey thanks anyway!

 

I'm even careful to make sure that a clutch stack goes back in the basket exactly the way it came out if it isn't being replaced, just rotating a plate can cause stickiness. A sticky new one if ran long enough can wear itself in and eventually release ok but now you have uneven wear on three plates and when the stack wears enough it can cause chattering or rough engagement. Which the installer will then blame on the brand of plate he used, which "never felt right and wore out quick". Angled wear that can't be seen by eye is enough to cause a symptom.

 

Dressing the basket is easy but a time consuming task best suited for a long winter evening. If you have a new basket I'd throw it in there and see what happens. Can't hurt, I woulda done it with the new stuff and saved the old one for having ready the next time just as SOP. Good idea to check that same contact area corner on the new basket to make sure the casting is nice and smooth there, some times the casting will have a sharp or rough corner and anything that can catch your fingernail can catch a plate. I've had some that needed a little attention with 400 wet paper before I felt they were smooth enough.

 

I've dressed new plates too when needed. It helps to think of these parts as like engine parts that work best after they've seated to each other under lubricated load, except these don't have enough sideways load to accomplish the seating, they'll just work like crap for a long time. You need to "approximate the wear-in" yourself by making sure everything is smooth at the contact surfaces.

 

I'm really curious to see a close up of the old basket.

 

Tim

 

 

There's a few pictures of the old basket! Looks like it coulda made for a possible chattery clutch? I ran my nail up and down a few of the surfaces and I there were a few spots that are going to need attention. I decided to go ahead with putting the new basket in instead. The new one had a little notched part on one of those fingers so I sanded it out as well. I got it all installed and its mayyybbbeee(?) a little better. Still sort of tries to roll in gear, maybe not as bad. I'm gonna keep trying to work air out of the clutch hydraulics.

 

The only other thing I can think is that the Skydoc clutch upgrade kit eliminates a shim, a retainer wire, and "half friction disc" at the back of the clutch basket and in place substitutes another those three things with a full friction disc. I guess its to reduce the friction zone of the clutch? Would that possibly eliminate some of the precious clearance in my clutch? I've been tempted to buy a new half friction disc, retainer wire and digging the old shim (spacer) out of the trash and trying that

[Chaharly]

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112443http://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112444http://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112445

 

There's a few pictures of the old basket! Looks like it coulda made for a possible chattery clutch? I ran my nail up and down a few of the surfaces and I there were a few spots that are going to need attention. I decided to go ahead with putting the new basket in instead. The new one had a little notched part on one of those fingers so I sanded it out as well. I got it all installed and its mayyybbbeee(?) a little better. Still sort of tries to roll in gear, maybe not as bad. I'm gonna keep trying to work air out of the clutch hydraulics.

 

The only other thing I can think is that the Skydoc clutch upgrade kit eliminates a shim, a retainer wire, and "half friction disc" at the back of the clutch basket and in place substitutes another those three things with a full friction disc. I guess its to reduce the friction zone of the clutch? Would that possibly eliminate some of the precious clearance in my clutch? I've been tempted to buy a new half friction disc, retainer wire and digging the old shim (spacer) out of the trash and trying that

 

The inside edges were pretty sharp as well, but the new basket they were satin smoothe

[7 lakes]

Well it most likely wasn't the basket, that doesnt look too bad. I dont have any experience with skydocs kit, I've never found the need for altering stock setups in a street application, but I'm not a Venture expert in particular. Skydocs kit has great reviews and isnt likely to be your issue, but strictly from a diagnostic perspective , if I were working on a customer's bike "blind" and all I knew was that the stock setup had been altered, the first thing I would do is return to a stock configuration and diagnose from there. But again, with everything I've read here about the kit it doesnt seem likely that that's your problem.

 

If may be air in the hydraulics, it may be time to rebuild the clutch master, worn internals can result in a portion of the stroke being used to pressurize the system instead of applying movement. Worn cups don't seal well until flared against the cylinder wall, and you could easily be using the first little portion of your application stroke to establish pressure, instead of applying it. I've had this show up after replacing a hydraulic component and bleeding the system, sometimes the really really fine rubber powder (That black stuff at the bottom of the master cylinder) provides sealing assistance and when you flush it all out you lose some seal. You won't even know it's happening but you can lose enough action to make a difference.

 

Try observing the movement of the clutch when operating the lever, once the little bit of slack is taken up any movement of the lever should result in immediate movement of the clutch; take up the mechanical slack between the lever and the master piston then while feeling the clutch with one hand move the lever gently with the other. You should be able to ascertain where the strictly mechanical slack between the lever and piston is, and beyond that there shouldn't be any hydraulic slack, and movement of the lever should immediately result in movement at the other end. Kind of a hard thing to describe, but you should be able to tell when the system actuates relative to where it should.

 

Man, I wish I had my hands on this thing.

 

Tim