bypassing clutch switch 86

[cruiserlover]

My new mastercylinder hand lever assembly has a non compatible electrical hookup with the stock one on my 86 venture.I want to make the clutch switch out of the equation.It has 4 wires.I cut the factory switch end off.It has 4 wires.2 black with a white stripe.one black with a yellow stripe, and one blue with a yellow stripe.I figured the black with white were ground and could be twisted together.I realize once this switch is bypassed the bike will start in gear,or ls not in neutral or in neutral, I am not sure if the sidestand safety switch will still be in the equation. If so I want to bypass it also. I tried twisting the b/w together, and separately, connected the black/y and blue yellow together.That made the ends of the black with white stripes get hot to touch.Also the voltmeter needle dropped down to zero.I disconnected all this and the voltmeter went back up to 12.The bike wont start.I am trying to eliminate potential causes.But the clutch switch has to go regardless because of the nonmatching connections i wrote.I searched here.I found lots of threads with the word clutch but none specifically about this.thanks.I figure cowpuc will know the answer.

 

ps I destroyed the stock mc trying to drill out a screw.

[videoarizona]

The B/Y (black/yellow)wire goes straight to the starting cut off relay. The L/Y (blue/yellow) comes from the side stand switch as seen in the pdf I included. The switches do two things, 1: turn off the cruise control and 2: Stop the motor from starting. The B/W wires are NOT ground. They are part of the control circuits and tie them all together...through relays or switches.

 

 

86-89 clutch switchA.pdf

 

Hope the close up of the schematic above helps....

[cruiserlover]

The B/Y (black/yellow)wire goes straight to the starting cut off relay. The L/Y (blue/yellow) comes from the side stand switch as seen in the pdf I included. The switches do two things, 1: turn off the cruise control and 2: Stop the motor from starting. The B/W wires are NOT ground. They are part of the control circuits and tie them all together...through relays or switches.

 

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112329

 

Hope the close up of the schematic above helps....

 

The schematic is turned sideways.I understand your explanation.So what do i do with these 4 wires now.I have an 83 laying on its side, the sidestand switch is held in place by 1 phillips screw.I took it out.The switch appears to have 1 blue and 1 green.they are encased in some sort of epoxy.I figure that is not supposed to be that way.I was figuring to connect its wires together and bypass it also on this good 86.function #2 you wrote sounds like potentially my problem.I have not taken loose the sidestand switch from the 86 I am trying to get going.But it sounds like not having the clutch wires continuing in a noninterrupted circuit created an open circuit and is doing the #2 you listed.I need to get it circulating back in itself it seems.

[videoarizona]

From Jeff " From the wiring diagram it looks like there are actually 2 separate switches in the clutch switch, One is normally open and the other is normally closed.

The starter cut out is the NC and the cruise is the NO. The switch is in the Normal position when the clutch lever is pulled."

 

Does that help?

[SpencerPJ]

The schematic is turned sideways.

 

That is the funniest thing I heard all day.

 

There are work arounds for that.

[cruiserlover]

That is the funniest thing I heard all day.

 

There are work arounds for that.

 

yeah, well, it may be funny but try laying an 800 pound motorcycle on its side so the schematic will make sense.I may need help standing it back up.

[cruiserlover]

yeah, well, it may be funny but try laying an 800 pound motorcycle on its side so the schematic will make sense.I may need help standing it back up.

 

spencer, after you compose yourself, tell me what do i do with the 4 clutch wires now they are cut and hanging in the breeze.I would appreciate that answer so I do not further destroy this motorcycle.

[SpencerPJ]

spencer, after you compose yourself, tell me what do i do with the 4 clutch wires now they are cut and hanging in the breeze.I would appreciate that answer so I do not further destroy this motorcycle.

 

My friend, I wish I had the knowledge to help you.

 

Sit tight, there are many Venture genius's in addition to VideoArizona that will come along and help you get running.

I know just enough about electrical to be dangerous.

 

Good luck, you will get it

[cimmer]

The B/W.. black/white wire is what disengages the cruise control. These wires need to be attached together for the cruise to work. This pair of wires also goes to all the brake switches so that if any of them are operated, it breaks the circuit and the cruise control is released. But note, attaching them together will not let the clutch lever break the cruise control if engaged, just keep that in mind.

 

The sidestand switch is used to ground the two leads coming to it. The L/Y..Blue/Yellow and the G/L.. Green/Blue wires run to different system but when grounded by the B..Black wire cause the engine to shutoff. I would leave the L/Y and G/L unattached and seal the end of the wires so they dont ground out or touch anything else. Again doing this disables the safety features of the bike and could cause you to ride off with the kickstand down and possible cause an accident for you.

 

I pulled the color codes for the wires from the service manual for the 86-93 Ventures as I dont have any experience with doing what you want to do.

Good luck..

 

Rick F.

[cruiserlover]

The B/W.. black/white wire is what disengages the cruise control. These wires need to be attached together for the cruise to work. This pair of wires also goes to all the brake switches so that if any of them are operated, it breaks the circuit and the cruise control is released. But note, attaching them together will not let the clutch lever break the cruise control if engaged, just keep that in mind.

 

The sidestand switch is used to ground the two leads coming to it. The L/Y..Blue/Yellow and the G/L.. Green/Blue wires run to different system but when grounded by the B..Black wire cause the engine to shutoff. I would leave the L/Y and G/L unattached and seal the end of the wires so they dont ground out or touch anything else. Again doing this disables the safety features of the bike and could cause you to ride off with the kickstand down and possible cause an accident for you.

 

I pulled the color codes for the wires from the service manual for the 86-93 Ventures as I dont have any experience with doing what you want to do.

Good luck..

 

Rick F.

 

I left out some valuable need to know information.The fairing pockets that generally contain the brains of some of these components are empty.Those components are in the bike trunk,not hooked to anything.The fairing pockets are empty.The cruise control buttons are still all in place on the handlebar but it appears all cruise control stuff is removed.I would like to have it functional, but i doubt since I have so much trouble with simpler things I could ever manage to get it done.It sounds as if I disconnect the 2 wires in the sidestand switch it will disable the switch.I know I could ride off with the kickstand down.I have never done that since 1972, but there could always be the first time.The clutch wires are cut, each separate.I suppose just cover the end of each of them and they will really have no role.As long as the bike is in neutral, or the sidestand is up and the clutch lever is pulled in even in gear it should start.It is not starting at all.That is why I am trying to eliminate all possible interfering safety switches.I had an 83 that the sidestand switch had to be bypassed because once I put the bike in gear it would die.But that bike was running.This one is not.I had everything connected exactly as it is now a week ago and the bike was running.I am at wits end trying to figure out what is causing this problem.I will keep you posted.I do appreciate all the help.I just want to go riding.

[cruiserlover]

My friend, I wish I had the knowledge to help you.

 

Sit tight, there are many Venture genius's in addition to VideoArizona that will come along and help you get running.

I know just enough about electrical to be dangerous.

 

Good luck, you will get it

 

youre a good guy spencer.It has to be something simple.But my mind is even more simple apparently.

[cimmer]

Sorry I left off something with the clutch switch.. the B/Y... Black/Yellow and the L/Y.. Blue/Yellow need to be connected to start the bike when in gear.. This shouldnt matter if the bike is in neutral as long as that switch is working properly.. Do you see the Neutral light on?

I would try and temporary connect them together and see if you can start the bike that way..

 

If you havent downloaded the service manual, I highly recommend it as it has a lot of procedures for testing with a volt meter..

 

Do you have the fairing off of the bike.. I saw you said the fairing pockets are empty.. Those would contain the radio and its components in the left one and the right one would have the Class control unit and the CB.. none of these are required for the bike to run.

 

Is the starter motor spinning and engaging the engine and turning it over?

 

Good luck..

 

Rick F.

[cruiserlover]

Sorry I left off something with the clutch switch.. the B/Y... Black/Yellow and the L/Y.. Blue/Yellow need to be connected to start the bike when in gear.. This shouldnt matter if the bike is in neutral as long as that switch is working properly.. Do you see the Neutral light on?

I would try and temporary connect them together and see if you can start the bike that way..

 

If you havent downloaded the service manual, I highly recommend it as it has a lot of procedures for testing with a volt meter..

 

Do you have the fairing off of the bike.. I saw you said the fairing pockets are empty.. Those would contain the radio and its components in the left one and the right one would have the Class control unit and the CB.. none of these are required for the bike to run.

 

Is the starter motor spinning and engaging the engine and turning it over?

 

Good luck..

 

Rick F.

The neutral light comes on every time i turn the ignition on whixh is an indication the bike should start.the class system is in the trunk.none of the things i like are connected.anything that is plug and play i will re connect.once i get the motorcycle to start.multiple times dependably start.its frustrating.i do appreciate the help.all the stereo radio stuff is unhooked and the heavy components are in a box.would that have anything to do with the nonstart issue.i dont see how because a week ago i had the bike running for about an hour.the fan never came on.there is a second small fuse bix and a fuse marked FAN.10 amp.its not blown.i have to not wander off.the bike never turns over when i hit the start button.maddening.

[cimmer]

Ok.. I would take a volt meter and start tracing voltages in the starting system. You can get an inexpensive one at Harbor Freight or one of the big box stores. The service manual has a nice flow chart of what to look for where but it takes that voltage meter to do it properly.

It seems to me you might have a relay that isnt working properly, maybe a loose wire or a bad solenoid or as Yamaha calls it, Starter Relay. You could move the heavy gauge wire that run from the solenoid to the starter, from the solenoid and touch it to the postive terminal of the battery and see if the battery spin over. This wont start the bike but show that you have a working starter. Next step would be to see if you have power to the solenoid on the L/W.. Blue/White wire that runs to the solenoid, this is what activates the solenoid to make the connection for the postive cable. You should hear it click when you energize it. It is located on the left side of the battery box as you sit on the bike.

Check out page 7-9 thru 7-18 of the service manual for procedures to check out the starting system..

Service manual is available at the link in this post.. http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?3384-First-Gen-Service-Manuals

Let us know what you find.

 

Rick F.

[RDawson]

Double check the kill switch on right bar.

[cruiserlover]

thanks everyone.I am off today.I will figure it out today somehow.I posted here that i have never seen a bike that if a battery is installed, and the solenoid is properly installed and functional, that i could not get the motor to turn over if i merely took like a pair of pliers or a wrench or something and cross the posts on the solenoid and the motor would turn over.It doesnt matter if the key is on or even in the ignition. By jumping the 2 posts of the solenoid it should turn over.I do get the solenoid click. Once again, thank you for all the suggestions.

[Flyinfool]

If jumping the 2 big terminals on the solenoid does nothing, then the problem is easy to find.

The possibilities in likeliness are;

1. Bad battery.

2. Bad electrical connection.

3. Bad starter.

 

Start at the top of the list, fully charge the battery and take it somewhere to get load tested. It is not unheard of to have a new bad battery.

 

IF the battery is good, MAKE SURE THE BIKE IS NOT IN GEAR! connect a jumper cable from the battery positive terminal to the positive terminal on the starter motor. If the engine cranks then you have a bad connection in one of the 2 positive cables.

 

Again make sure the bike is not in gear, leave the jumper from previous step connected, and connect the second jumper cable to the battery negative and the other end to the starter housing. If the engine now cranks you have a bad ground connection.

 

If these tests do not get the engine to crank, you have a starter problem.

[cruiserlover]

If jumping the 2 big terminals on the solenoid does nothing, then the problem is easy to find.

The possibilities in likeliness are;

1. Bad battery.

2. Bad electrical connection.

3. Bad starter.

 

Start at the top of the list, fully charge the battery and take it somewhere to get load tested. It is not unheard of to have a new bad battery.

 

IF the battery is good, MAKE SURE THE BIKE IS NOT IN GEAR! connect a jumper cable from the battery positive terminal to the positive terminal on the starter motor. If the engine cranks then you have a bad connection in one of the 2 positive cables.

 

Again make sure the bike is not in gear, leave the jumper from previous step connected, and connect the second jumper cable to the battery negative and the other end to the starter housing. If the engine now cranks you have a bad ground connection.

 

If these tests do not get the engine to crank, you have a starter problem.

 

I did number 1.battery is good.2 and 3 coming up.

[cruiserlover]

the starter appears to have only 1 wire.from a nut securing it to the starter up to the solenoid.It is grounded by being bolted to the crankcase it appears.I took a jumper cable from the positive battery post and touched it to the bolt on the starter,nothing.I touched the jumper to the starter cable side of the solenoid.just sparks because the hot cable was touching metal.The only other battery connection is to a cable from the negative battery post to securely under a nut on the engine casing.With the key on, the wire from the starter connected to either post of the solenoid, and switching the positive battery cable to either post of the solenoid nothing happens but sparks.with the positive cable from the big terminal of the battery to the jumpered side of the solenoid.the one pictured in this thread,not the one with the blue wire, and the wire coming from the starter to the opposite side of the solenoid, and the battery securely grounded to the engine casing all should be in order.Put a screwdriver between the posts of the solenoid and nothing.Do the same thing to my junk 83 and the starter turns over.I think it is my starter.I dread removing crashbars,linkage from the shifter peg, all the allen bolts holding the casecover on, to get to the starter mounting bolts.My background mechanically is working on cars.I know if a starter is dragging it will pull down on a battery.Also if you put a redhot battery in a car with a dragging starter it will often start the car making one think the problem was the battery.The way the battery would run down while just trying to troubleshoot this makes me think its the starter.Solenoid clicks and nothing else make me suspect the starter.I was going to rob the starter off the 83 and try it.But of course one of the allen bolts stripped out.I am done with it for today.I will drill out the ruined allen bolt and get the cover off the 83 tomorrow.Hopefully the starter mounting bolts will come loose.I sure dont want to buy a starter if thats not the problem.When I had this bike running it would crank real slow then catch and suddenly start.It could be a worn out starter, or some teeth that are bad and once the starter rotates around to a good place it catches and spins.who knows.

[Flyinfool]

You do NOT need to pull the side cover to remove the starter, it is bolted on from the other side.

The purpose of the 3rd test was to verify if all of the ground connections are good, that is why that jumper cable is connecting from the battery negative to the starter motor housing. I have seen corrosion in the joint between the starter motor and the block cause the bad connection.

 

But from your description of the sparks, it sounds like all is good in the wiring.

 

OK silly question time.

Have you had the left engine cover off recently?

If so when you put it back on did you use a new gasket or just a sealant? The starter will not work if a sealant was used, the gasket thickness needs to be there or the starter gears will bind.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Flyinfool

[cruiserlover]

You do NOT need to pull the side cover to remove the starter, it is bolted on from the other side.

The purpose of the 3rd test was to verify if all of the ground connections are good, that is why that jumper cable is connecting from the battery negative to the starter motor housing. I have seen corrosion in the joint between the starter motor and the block cause the bad connection.

 

But from your description of the sparks, it sounds like all is good in the wiring.

 

OK silly question time.

Have you had the left engine cover off recently?

If so when you put it back on did you use a new gasket or just a sealant? The starter will not work if a sealant was used, the gasket thickness needs to be there or the starter gears will bind.

No I didnt take any engine cover off. Also I took one of the 3 solenoids i had tried and put it back on my parts bike.Hit the starter button on it,nothing.Crossed the posts with and without the key in or on and the motor turns over like i expected it to on my good bike.This nonfunctioning 86.It sure looks like in the manual the starter bolts come through from the inside.If not then I am ectastic.I will take the one off the 86 first.see if its screwed up.Plus hook it to a battery and see if it spins.If its real corroded or something is obvious I will then proceed to take the one off the 83.Thanks so much.As difficult as it would be to remove the left cover i wouldnt do that unless no other option was available.Many allen headed bolts, many of which are soft and strippable.

[cruiserlover]

You do NOT need to pull the side cover to remove the starter, it is bolted on from the other side.

The purpose of the 3rd test was to verify if all of the ground connections are good, that is why that jumper cable is connecting from the battery negative to the starter motor housing. I have seen corrosion in the joint between the starter motor and the block cause the bad connection.

 

But from your description of the sparks, it sounds like all is good in the wiring.

 

OK silly question time.

Have you had the left engine cover off recently?

If so when you put it back on did you use a new gasket or just a sealant? The starter will not work if a sealant was used, the gasket thickness needs to be there or the starter gears will bind.

 

I also was able to move the cable where it attaches to the starter.I thought wow, thats it.loose cable.I took it off, got the connection point real shiny and clean,retightened.Nothing.

[cimmer]

I think you need to remove the starter as you are talking about.. hook it up to the battery and see what happens. To remove the starter you might need to remove the thermostat housing also. Least it makes it a lot easier to remove the starter when it is out of there.

The starter from the 83 will fit the 86 or if you want to spend some money, a 4 brush starter from a 91-93 Venture or a 2nd gen starter will work also. Gives you a little bit more torque when spinning the motor over when hot. There are some excellent post on here about the starters and mods you can do to the 2 brush ones also.

 

I am sure you will get this figured out..

 

Rick F.

[cruiserlover]

I think you need to remove the starter as you are talking about.. hook it up to the battery and see what happens. To remove the starter you might need to remove the thermostat housing also. Least it makes it a lot easier to remove the starter when it is out of there.

The starter from the 83 will fit the 86 or if you want to spend some money, a 4 brush starter from a 91-93 Venture or a 2nd gen starter will work also. Gives you a little bit more torque when spinning the motor over when hot. There are some excellent post on here about the starters and mods you can do to the 2 brush ones also.

 

I am sure you will get this figured out..

 

Rick F.

 

thanks.I figure I will have to remove the radiator also.I looked ath the 83 again.I touched the red white wire to the large terminal on the solenoid and the motor turns over good by pushing the start button.I thought that solenoid was bad.So something on the 86 is not connected right.1. I have the positive battery cable connected to the large terminal of the solenoid, the one with the jumper from the large terminal to the small terminal.The other large terminal has a blue white wire from the small terminal-a very small nut.That blue white is connected via bullet connector to the wire coming from the bike.I have the ground cable from the battery securely fastened on the loose end to under a nut on the frame with a bolt through it holding it tight and secure.The wire bolted to the starter comes up and is under the large terminal of the solenoid, the one with the bluewhite wire under the small nut/terminal.The starter is bolted securely to the engine case.The fuses are good.If I turn the key,hit the start button the lights go off as they should, come back bright when I release the start button.If I disconnect any of this the click stops.Reconnect and the click returns, which i figure is the solenoid sending a signal,current to the starter that should make the starter turn.I can put a screwdriver across the large terminal os the solenoid and the motor doesnt turn over.That is why I thought the solenoid was bad.The solenoid i thought was bad easily makes the partsbike motor turn over.So even if the starter is bad, something should happen.At least a slow turn of the starter or indication the current from the solenoid has been sent to the starter.Something isnt connected.I can not figure out what.All the fuses are good.I was taking the kickstand switch loose to see if that was interfering.But first I disconnected the one on the 83 and it turns over connected or disconnected.next week a smart mechanic friend of mine is coming to see what I did wrong.probably something simple and dumb i have done.I even made a jumper cable with a alligator clip on either end.I connected one end to the positive post of the battery.I touched it to both large terminals on the solenoid one at a time.Nothing.I went from the positive terminal on the battery down to the wire from the large terminal on the solenoid that has its wire connected to the nut holding the cable on.Nothing.Not even sparks.I give up.I traced the connections on the 83, they seem the same.I give up.Any of you guys could fix this in 5 minutes.

[cruiserlover]

I did as flyin fool said.I connected a jumper cable from the ground post of the battery to the nut holding the starter cable onto the starter. That cable goes up to the ground side of the solenoid,under the large solenoid terminal.I connected a second jumper from the positive side of the battery to the positive side of the solenoid.Turned the key on.neutral light shining bright.Hit the starter button and nothing.But the handle to the clamp of the jumper cable connected to the negative post of the battery started to get warm.