Reversing the shift pattern

[s.tyler58]

First and foremost, THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

 

With all your help and patience with me, my 83 is no longer blowing fuses, has new clutch springs and slave and doesn't leak! Well, I may still be working on a small leak from beneath the radiator cap but not from the overflow hose I am working on to tweak back into a tight seal but that's just going to be trial and trial again until it stops. (Notice I did not say error!)

 

Before I start putting everything back on the bike I have a question. This 83 has running boards and what I think you guys refer to as forward controls. It has a reversed shift pattern so that Neutral is 1/2 click down from the top rather than 1/2 up from the bottom. With my limited terminology and no schematic, I want to know if it can be reversed. I noticed that the linkage from the shifter is in a "Top" position. (See crude, no very crude illustration) Can the linkage be rotated 90 degrees downward, thus reversing the reaction to pushing, lifting the shifter, thus reversing the shift pattern?

 

[zagger]

I have forward controls and the shift pattern would have been reversed - except that I added a little rotating linkage to make it go back to normal.

zag

 

[Marcarl]

Not sure how it all works with forward controls, but with the stock controls the linkage needs to be in the up position in order for the stator cover to seat properly. If the linkage is in the down position it will reverse the shifting, but you run the risk of cracking the stator cover.

[s.tyler58]

Not sure how it all works with forward controls, but with the stock controls the linkage needs to be in the up position in order for the stator cover to seat properly. If the linkage is in the down position it will reverse the shifting, but you run the risk of cracking the stator cover.

I think what I meant to say is not forward control but a rocker shift with a toe and heel?

 

...in the Eternal scheme of things, this isn't even the blink of an eye.

[s.tyler58]

Why would putting a rocker lever on it make it go backwards in the first place? Seems really bizarre to me

 

...in the Eternal scheme of things, this isn't even the blink of an eye.

[cowpuc]

FOUND IT TY!! Hold on,, gonna thumb thru my YouTube vids and see if I didnt address some of this in one of them - thinking I may just have done that.. I will say this,, if the lever in your well engineered sketch is the one that attaches to the shift shaft sticking out of the side of the engine = for normal controls on the 1st Gen, that lever placed pointing upwards will create a 1 down, 4 up shift pattern.. Pointing downwardly, it will produce a completely opposite pattern which can be really fun to ride and have the added benefit of one of the best anti theft devices known to man!!!

Be right back...

[s.tyler58]

"that lever placed pointing upwards will create a 1 down, 4 up shift pattern.. Pointing downwardly, it will produce a completely opposite pattern which can be really fun to ride and have the added benefit of one of the best anti theft devices known to man!!!

Be right back..."

 

But it just sticks out front and moves the shaft the same direction up and down like the stock on does. If it were upside it would be below the floorboard and you couldn't touch it with your foot at all. It'd also make a good kick stand upside down. Wierd. Nothing changes mechanically except that the toe lever is 6 inches farther forward and 2" up from the stock shifter! GRRRRR! IF all it has was the heel lever and no toe lever, then it makes perfect sense that it would be reversed.

 

As far as anti-theft, it took me three weeks to find neutral after I mentioned it in a post with a photo and one you smart guys told it was reversed! hahaha. Maybe I'm just too thick-headed to be a mechanic....

Edited April 4, 2018 by s.tyler58
additional info to paragraph 2

[Marcarl]

Maybe take a picture if you can.

[cowpuc]

Ok,, hot off the press,,, 1st thing to do is watch this short video I just made, if nothing else - it will give you a reference point for understanding how/why the shift pattern will change with a change in rotation of the shaft itself.. I cant get to Tweeks my parts bike that your clutch handle came off from because shes buried behind my son's furniture (they are moving) so I couldnt show the internal (behind the stator cover) linkage so, after I post this, I am going to post a parts blow up that shows all the linkages and how they set.. Keep in mind when viewing those that the same rule applies = changing a lever position on a shaft beyond mounting center line so the shaft rotates in the opposite direction when the matching directional force is applied and BINGO = shift pattern changes...

Here's the vid,, hope you can somehow make sense out of all this - not many can usually follow my twisted logic :

[cowpuc]

and here is the parts diagram Ty..

Look up parts 22-23 on the dia.. Find em? Those are the external lever (and cap) that I point to in the video. Part 21 is the shaft that I am talking about in the video. Shaft 21 goes thru the stator cover and linkage assembly 30 attaches to it on the backside/inside of the stator cover then the lever on the other end of that assembly attaches to the shift shaft that goes all the way thru the motor and appears under the clutch hub.. If you look at the entire assembly picture and notice how each lever is laid out in the picture using the video I shot for you as a reference - you should be able to see, positionally, what direction each linked lever needs to be in for a proper shift pattern on a "normal" Venture set up.. Keep in mind again that changing any of those levers enough to create a rotational change in direction for any of their mating shafts will indeed change your shift pattern..

##### ALSO NOTE what Carl was talking about!! You get any of those parts in a positition that it interferes with a case/cover that is being torqued down,, snappo' - instant cracked cover = sort of like getting a thermostat in a gooseneck out of position and tightening the gooseneck down on the thermostat (like we have ALL done, some of us more times than others) = instant ruined gooseneck!! Make sense?

Here is that parts diagram :

https://www.yamahapartsnation.com/oemparts/a/yam/5004250df8700209bc788083/shift-shaft

[cowpuc]

So all that said, watched and done.. In the end you, if the internal levers are positioned as shown, you will want to make your floorboard linkage arrangement rotate that outer shaft in a clockwise manner as shown in the video when you press down on the forward shift lever (common called the toe shifter, rearward one is called the heel shifter) to create a 1 up and 4 down pattern.

[bongobobny]

Maybe this will help you understand. With the linkage pointing down, which is correct, when you pull on the lever it makes the shifter move CCW. If the lever was pointing up and you pull on it the shifter will move CW resulting in the shifter action being 180 degrees out of phase!

 

By changing the location of the lever by one tooth either CW or CCW will move the the toe pad either up or down...

[s.tyler58]

Maybe this will help you understand. With the linkage pointing down, which is correct, when you pull on the lever it makes the shifter move CCW. If the lever was pointing up and you pull on it the shifter will move CW resulting in the shifter action being 180 degrees out of phase!

 

By changing the location of the lever by one tooth either CW or CCW will move the the toe pad either up or down...

 

Ok. I pick things up relatively quickly. But here's the deal, my rocker shifter mounts directly on the shaft coming out. That external linkage is gone and / so I had never seen it! You can see why the whole thing didn't make any sense without that linkage that reverses the direction of the shift action like in my dear friend Puc's video.

 

I'm crazy! Not stupid!

 

My IQ's just over 145.

My attention span is just under 3 seconds...

 

Have you ever seen the animated movie, "Up!"? I'm the dog that's constantly distracted by "Squirrel".

 

And I do appreciate the simplification for my sake because I'm learning to be a Yamaha Venture mechanic for the first time. It's fun, maddening, but it looks like I'm just about to reap some Rewards!

 

My brother says that I'm like this, "I have ADHlook at that pretty birD!"

 

...in the Eternal scheme of things, this isn't even the blink of an eye.

Edited April 6, 2018 by s.tyler58

[s.tyler58]

With all this having been said, my original question was whether THIS linkage could be rotated 90 degrees down so that that push rod rises to the rear connection rather than dropping. Again, I have not been able to see where it is actually mounted or what parts may be around it that would be in the way of such a change. I saw it move, noted plenty of clearance below the current position and imagined that it would still be higher than the exhaust so it would not be in danger of being destroyed during a high center situation.

 

...in the Eternal scheme of things, this isn't even the blink of an eye.

[cowpuc]

With all this having been said, my original question was whether THIS linkage could be rotated 90 degrees down so that that push rod rises to the rear connection rather than dropping. Again, I have not been able to see where it is actually mounted or what parts may be around it that would be in the way of such a change. I saw it move, noted plenty of clearance below the current position and imagined that it would still be higher than the exhaust so it would not be in danger of being destroyed during a high center situation. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180406/a979b63c67829afb816256b4440e6dd1.jpg

 

...in the Eternal scheme of things, this isn't even the blink of an eye.

 

BINGO!!!! Now we are cooking with possum fat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry Ty,,, I totally did not get that but NOW I do!!!

 

Currently the furniture for the living room in my son's new home is being stored in our garage and, unfortunately - Tweeks the parts bike is stashed behind the stuff.. As soon as I can get at her, I will crawl next to her stator and see what I can see and make another video for you. I am not sure how much room there is behind the stator cover for rotating that lever in there into downward position.. Looking at the pic,,, it almost looks like the lever will need to be flipped over as well as rotated in order to end up with the angle of the arm to be able to create movement for shifting too = without modding the lever... Never really thought about it but I do know one thing,,, we are talking custom work here and when doing custom modding - ANYTHING is possible!!!!

[s.tyler58]

BINGO!!!! Now we are cooking with possum fat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry Ty,,, I totally did not get that but NOW I do!!!

 

Currently the furniture for the living room in my son's new home is being stored in our garage and, unfortunately - Tweeks the parts bike is stashed behind the stuff.. As soon as I can get at her, I will crawl next to her stator and see what I can see and make another video for you. I am not sure how much room there is behind the stator cover for rotating that lever in there into downward position.. Looking at the pic,,, it almost looks like the lever will need to be flipped over as well as rotated in order to end up with the angle of the arm to be able to create movement for shifting too = without modding the lever... Never really thought about it but I do know one thing,,, we are talking custom work here and when doing custom modding - ANYTHING is possible!!!! [emoji106]

You shouldn't need to pull the stator cover because this thing is in the open-air behind the stator . I could see most of it when I was replacing the slave. I just couldn't get under to really look at what's around it and once I finally got that cover sealed in the Helicoil put in and everything I didn't want to pull it off again to investigate further. I wondered about having to flip that part for the correct angle as well. ( once I saw the schematic that you provided) It's nothing that I'm in a big hurry about. But you know how when you get an idea that would be cool to do and maybe solve problems for others it just kind of sits there in your brain and nags at you when you're falling asleep, chewing a tough piece of meat, sitting on the toilet reading VR. Org posts. It's weird but I can ride for an hour and probably 3 in 10 times I'm trying to shift the wrong direction. Old habits die hard!

 

...in the Eternal scheme of things, this isn't even the blink of an eye.

Edited April 6, 2018 by s.tyler58

[cruiserlover]

when i sold my first 83 nearly 20 years ago i had fabricated forward controls rather crudely but they worked.The shift pattern changed to upside down.Now I know why.I had always wondered.Moreso now because i was going to make more fc for the current 83.

[Tattoolimbo]

of course it is just my opinion but I like the one up four down sequence much better than the standard. Some of the early 70s Harleys had the 1 up 3 down and I LOVED it! You can really bang through the gears when all you have to do is stomp on the lever. My foot doesn't like the pushing up with my toes thing, it is just uncomfortable.

[s.tyler58]

You can really bang through the gears when all you have to do is stomp on the lever.

 

Bahahaha! Did he just say "really bang through the gears" in reference to Hardley?

 

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[Tattoolimbo]

Bahahaha! Did he just say "really bang through the gears" in reference to Hardley?

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Yep that was me, don't get the fun of it but glad you enjoyed it. My foot doesn't like bending up to upshift. I have to lift my whole leg to shift up so going through the gears is much easier to push down while accelerating. I've ridden mostly harleys since the 70s, a few triumphs and a few yamahas. Just got the Venture this spring and still getting used to it. The mid controls arent at all for me. It hurts my legs and cramps my back so I'm going to buy or build some forward controls.

[camos]

Yep that was me, don't get the fun of it but glad you enjoyed it. My foot doesn't like bending up to upshift. I have to lift my whole leg to shift up so going through the gears is much easier to push down while accelerating. I've ridden mostly harleys since the 70s, a few triumphs and a few yamahas. Just got the Venture this spring and still getting used to it. The mid controls arent at all for me. It hurts my legs and cramps my back so I'm going to buy or build some forward controls.

I understand the physical changes when going from feet forward to feet under. When I first got my Venture I was very inclined figure out a foot forward position. It was a bit of a low priority at the time so just over a year later I thought about doing something with the controls. By that time though I was so used to the position that I was very comfortable riding all day with my legs tucked. Having highway pegs is still a good idea when doing long rides.

 

When I'm sitting on the Venture with my feet on the pegs, my toes are pointed slightly down so I adjusted the shift lever so it would slightly touch the top of my foot. Shifting with that setup requires only an effortless slight rocking backwards of my foot. In the winter I readjust the shift lever to fit my felt-pac rubbers. Works just fine that way too.