Hold your breath I'm going in.....

[ragtop69gs]

Putting a 4" repair section into a 6" line is asking for problems, the lip created will probably catch debris and plug it up. When they sleeve a pipe they use a backhoeto push the sleeve in, any other way will end up causing more damage. Water jetting is expensive but does a nice job of cleaning out the pipes, then they can be relined, there are several companies that can do that.

[Flyinfool]

Putting a 4" repair section into a 6" line is asking for problems, the lip created will probably catch debris and plug it up. When they sleeve a pipe they use a backhoeto push the sleeve in, any other way will end up causing more damage. Water jetting is expensive but does a nice job of cleaning out the pipes, then they can be relined, there are several companies that can do that.

 

I was concerned about the size change. The vertical pipe in the house is already a 4". It is the clay line under the floor that is 6 inch. I am adding about 10 feet to the existing 4" line to reach the end of the existing 6" line. So I am not reducing size anywhere, the flow will be from the 4" into the 6 inch, just like it has been for the last 100 years. (House was built in 1800s) The only difference is that the transition from 4 to 6 will now be in a horizontal run instead of at the inlet of the elbow that made the transition from vertical to horizontal. I am not putting in a repair section that will be a 6" to 4" back to 6" section. Think it will still be an issue? I can still do 6 inch for all underground and make the transition just above the floor like it was before, just a lot more work. Most houses have 4" all the way to the street. 4" will have a higher velocity to help keep it clean and move stuff along.

 

I called a couple of local relining companies and they were all well over $10K closer to $20K. That just aint in the budget.

 

I have managed to get a clean cut of the end of the 6" clay (only took 3 tries) and the 4" cast iron (got it on the first try), I was worried about that part.

[ragtop69gs]

I was concerned about the size change. The vertical pipe in the house is already a 4". It is the clay line under the floor that is 6 inch. I am adding about 10 feet to the existing 4" line to reach the end of the existing 6" line. So I am not reducing size anywhere, the flow will be from the 4" into the 6 inch, just like it has been for the last 100 years. (House was built in 1800s) The only difference is that the transition from 4 to 6 will now be in a horizontal run instead of at the inlet of the elbow that made the transition from vertical to horizontal. I am not putting in a repair section that will be a 6" to 4" back to 6" section. Think it will still be an issue? I can still do 6 inch for all underground and make the transition just above the floor like it was before, just a lot more work. Most houses have 4" all the way to the street. 4" will have a higher velocity to help keep it clean and move stuff along.

 

I called a couple of local relining companies and they were all well over $10K closer to $20K. That just aint in the budget.

 

I have managed to get a clean cut of the end of the 6" clay (only took 3 tries) and the 4" cast iron (got it on the first try), I was worried about that part.

 

 

Look closely at the clay pipe where you cut it, if the pipe wall is thinned from erosion keep going till you find good pipe....

 

I'd stick with the original layout keeping it 6" below grade and make the transition to 4" on the verticle. You may want to put a cleanout Tee somewhere in the horizontal repair run.

 

How far away is the Tee to the main line to the sewer? Often that is where their is a major failure that sucks all the dirt down & into the sewer. Tap the concrete in that area listening for a change in pitch while tapping, if it sounds hollow you have another repair ahead of you.

[cowpuc]

Much better now that we have a picture to look at,,,, see that pipe looking thing coming down the wall toward the end of that hunk of pipe that cha dug up? Just cut into that puppy at the ceiling and run 4 inch overhead and down the wall where the clay pipe that runs under the concrete exits the foundation at. Then cut a whole in the floor there down to the clay pipe, cut the clay pipe and force a piece of 4" pvc into it a couple feet or so - at least far enough so you know you are outside the perimiter of the foundation in case you have to work outside on it in the future. Put an elbow on the pvc that enters the clay pipe and put a cleanout above it to attach the 4" coming down from the ceiling to so you can get a snake into the horizontal outside. Mud up the space between the clay and plastic with E6000 or silicone and leave the area open for a couple weeks so you can monitor it.. The last thing I would do unless absolutely necessary would be rebury that thing under the concrete..

BUT,, if it did have to stay under the concrete I wouldn't trust the the rest of the clay pipe even for a milli second = Murph has a history with me and one that is highly predictable = about 2 months after completion of patching up the area that you have exposed, I would be downstairs sharpening the turbo veins on the White Washer and my hyper sensitive ears would hear water running under the floor or my sniffer would smell that familiar odor of septic exhaust letting me know that Murph hadnt forgot about me and my under the concrete floor drain project ... Plain and simple,, I would at least open er up enough and remove enough clay pipe that I could KNOW all blockage was removed and that I could slide enough 4" Pvc inside the clay pipe that I knew I was a couple feet outside of the footing perimiter in case I had to work out there in the future (basically making a "stub" inside of the clay pipe so I could crack the clay open outdoors and BINGO = ready to finish the 4 inch run and hook up to the sewer!!). I would then run all new 4" down the wall if needed so I ended up with a clean out/elbow like the picture shows..

I have remodeled several houses thru the years and helped build a couple new too and gotta tell ya,, when it comes to plumbing - I have learned that its easier (because of my relationship with Murph) and much more durable to just replumb start to finish and even then its a crapshoot as I have had instances where I rip out a drain in my house and later that day my neighbor will be asking to borrow my pipe wrenches cause somehow me loosening a drain pipe at my house ends up causing a leak all the way over at his house

[Flyinfool]

That is an interesting idea there @cowpuc.

I did some looking and decided that it is not a practical solution in my case. In order to keep a proper slope all the way across the basement, that last vertical would start just under 5 feet off the floor. To keep from having to duck under it, I would have to follow the wall all the way around the basement. But then I am not sure how to connect the 4 other drains that join in farther downstream. I guess I have to keep it under the floor. I will not cement over this new stuff until summer. Just to be able to keep an eye on ole Murph. I just need to get another 20-30 years out of this, by then I will be to old to still live here.

[Yammer Dan]

Only 3 things a Plumber needs ta know:

 

1. Hot is on the Left.

 

2. Cold is on the Right.

 

3. Crap won't run uphill!!

 

 

I was starting to understand Puc!! Thought he had something there!! Now that's SCARY!!!!

Edited March 2, 2018 by Yammer Dan

[cowpuc]

That is an interesting idea there cowpuc.

I did some looking and decided that it is not a practical solution in my case. In order to keep a proper slope all the way across the basement, that last vertical would start just under 5 feet off the floor. To keep from having to duck under it, I would have to follow the wall all the way around the basement. But then I am not sure how to connect the 4 other drains that join in farther downstream. I guess I have to keep it under the floor. I will not cement over this new stuff until summer. Just to be able to keep an eye on ole Murph. I just need to get another 20-30 years out of this, by then I will be to old to still live here.

 

So you have other drain/sewer pipes coming down a wall(s) that enter the concrete floor of your basement and that branch into that sewer line that runs under the concrete = meaning,, that is not just a single line going under your basement floor but is a line that has multiple connections to it all buried under the concrete before it exits the houses perimeter to head to sewer heaven?

 

If this is not so and we are talking about a single line running under the basement and you dont have the room for a minimal 1/4" per foot drop over head,, think about this one.. Open up the end where you have already started and remove enough pipe that you can slide some 4" pvc inside of the 6" tile and end up with at least a couple feet of pvc sticking out past the outside edge of the house while still inside the original pipe.. I have worked on old houses that had lead filled joints (also had exposed non insulated wiring for lights and stuff with insulators like you would find on electric fences = talking OLD houses) connected to clay tile and then connected to a rubber connector that hooked up to modern day pvc that had a continual increase in pipe I.D. size while heading downstream and as long as it was (minimal 4" throughout though as that has always been "code" in areas I have worked) downward in size as you work downstream (think little waterfalls happening inside those pipes) = never had an issue this way BUT = go from bigger ID to smaller ID while going downstream = NOT GOOD = rotor rooter employee's dream come true .. That said, If you open the floor up where the pipe exists the wall to go out of the house and head to the sewer, split the clay pipe there at that spot, push the pvc thru the clay pipe from the spot where it is already opened up (you may very well not even have to use 1 long section of pvc, there is a good chance that a pvc "union" will slide inside the clay pipe while connecting two sections of pvc - if so, cut the pvc in 4 foot sections and glue up the unions in the hole and keep forcing the pipe thru the clay tile). In the process of doing this you will force the hunks of debris that are trapped inside the clay pipe under the concrete into the opening in the floor at the exiting end so you can remove it - if you do this dont forget to double check inside the pvc for remaining chunks of concrete now stuck in there before you finish sliding it thru the clay pipe leading outdoors.. If the pvc OD is small enough compared to the tile ID so you are able to use sections and unions - I would glue up a union on the end of the pvc that is going to land outside of the houses perimiter just to help in preventing backflow between the pipes and then do another one right where it enters the clay pipe inside the house as this will help permantently fill the gap.

 

Gotta be a way here brother beyond spending them big bucks for someone to come in and do exactly what I am talking about

 

I wish you we didnt have this 50 mile wide pond between us,, I would at least grab my little $80 SDS Chinese demo hammer and show ya how to knock holes in the floor = ratatatatatatatatatatatatatatatatatatatatatatattata:missingtooth:

 

Only 3 things a Plumber needs ta know:

 

1. Hot is on the Left.

 

2. Cold is on the Right.

 

3. Crap won't run uphill!!

 

 

I was starting to understand Puc!! Thought he had something there!! Now that's SCARY!!!!

 

TRY THAT ONE ON FOR SIZE BRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Edited March 3, 2018 by cowpuc

[Marcarl]

I kind of like Puc's idea, but something to keep in mind if you go this route. When pushing smaller pipe into larger one, you could create enough debris that it might plug up somewhere further down the pipe where trees have sunk their roots. Maybe best to rent a sewer camera to see how that all might work out.

[Flyinfool]

Well I have it all connected, at least for now. I have used a combination of many ideas that you all have given me. Thanks a bunch.This will need more work down the line but at least it is usable for now. Where that 4" PVC enters the clay it is pushed all the way down to the first other connection so that when I dig that one up the 4 inch PVC will be there.

 

I have to get all of the other connections done because after these connections the main line makes a 90° bend still under the basement floor. Even the places that do relining said they can not go around a corner and would have to break out floor and dig holes at each drain connection and at that 90°bend. But I am hoping that I can at least tackle the rest of this on my terms and when I have time and funds planned for it.

 

Here is an idea of just how thin the concrete is over the pipe and this is after 10' of drop. At least the 4" pvc will allow an additional 1.5" of concrete floor.

 

 

 

Here is what it looks like now I have added some supports under the pipe that are not in this pic. I will leave the hole open for a while to let the dirt dry out before I add the gravel and cement over it.

 

BUTT Yippie, we can use the toilets again and after 2 days in that stinky hole it really felt good to take a shower.

[Marcarl]

Smelling better already, glad you go it done, I was getting afraid of going on the site, especially to this thread. Butt snot so bad now.

[Yammer Dan]

Looks like that should keep ya from being so full.....for a while!!!

[Sylvester]

All I can say is "job well done, fool". Glad I didn't have to do something like this.

 

[cowpuc]

100% totally AWESOME job IMHO Fool:clap2:!!!! Looks like a perfectly executed Professional $25k job if there ever was one brother:thumbsup2:!!

 

Just thinking out loud here but,, in accordance with The Code (not necessarily building code = talking about THE code) such a very well done, money saving job as that deserves a fulfillment of pg, 701, sec. 31 which simply state: it shall not be considered inappropriate behavior or spousal abuse if a member covered under the bylaws of these codes does explain to his "better half" that the monies spent on said newly purchased classic muscle car, boat, airplane, MOTORCYCLE or any other item subject to being classified as a "toy" by said "better half" under other fiduciary circumstances does in fact purchase one or more of those same items with finances derived from savings relocated to the rendering of services as a "Do It Yourselver" in place of calling a Professional Tradesman to complete such task!!

[Flyinfool]

There is still a significant "aroma" in the basement that I expect to last quite a while till the ground dries up.

 

100% totally AWESOME job IMHO Fool:clap2:!!!! Looks like a perfectly executed Professional $25k job if there ever was one brother:thumbsup2:!!

 

Just thinking out loud here but,, in accordance with The Code (not necessarily building code = talking about THE code) such a very well done, money saving job as that deserves a fulfillment of pg, 701, sec. 31 which simply state: it shall not be considered inappropriate behavior or spousal abuse if a member covered under the bylaws of these codes does explain to his "better half" that the monies spent on said newly purchased classic muscle car, boat, airplane, MOTORCYCLE or any other item subject to being classified as a "toy" by said "better half" under other fiduciary circumstances does in fact purchase one or more of those same items with finances derived from savings relocated to the rendering of services as a "Do It Yourselver" in place of calling a Professional Tradesman to complete such task!!

 

I'm just a bit in front of you there Puckster, Erika has now at least heard of an FJR1300. I have been thinking of trading the Venture and a wad of cash for a FJR. Or maybe even some new bling and/or performance options for the WWW

[bongobobny]

Sprinkle some Lye on the ground to help disburse it faster...

[Flyinfool]

The ground in the hole is getting wetter instead of dryer. This means that there is another leak farther down stream. The ground that is getting wetter is right where I stopped digging. This means that I am going back in again and breaking more floor. While cleaning it out last time I could feel something hard about 8 feet down the pipe, that is right where the laundry is connected. There is no sign of slow flowing from the laundry connection so I am hoping that all is good after that point I was hoping that it was just a poor connection where they may have drilled a hole and shoved in a pipe and sealed around it. That laundry connection is already PVC going into the floor so it was done at a much later time than the rest of the plumbing. All of the other plumbing in the house was all poorly done so I have no reason to expect this to be done right either. This will get me almost to the 90° elbow that is under the floor. If I get to that elbow then it will be appropriate to look at getting the whole thing done all the way to the street.

 

I am running out of clothes pins for my nose................

[BlueSky]

Oh NO! I'm sorry to hear that. Good luck with the repair!

[cecdoo]

Yea that sux, I was hoping you had a nice clean fix. Hopefully the next section goes alittle easier and takes care of the problem. Mite want to take a steel rod and try busting up the clog while flushing pipe out with a hose. Stop if the water in the room gets up to your knees:crying:

 

Craig

[Flyinfool]

Yea that sux, I was hoping you had a nice clean fix. Hopefully the next section goes alittle easier and takes care of the problem. Mite want to take a steel rod and try busting up the clog while flushing pipe out with a hose. Stop if the water in the room gets up to your knees:crying:

 

Craig

 

I sent the garden hose down there with an old fashion brass nozzle. At about the 8' mark it was making a sound like tapping on something hard that I can not get it past, that and the fact that there is still water leaking into the ground tells me that there is another cave in at that point. All I can do is to repair them one at a time as I find them. Water is able to get past that point, but nothing I push down there will get past that point. That point is 1 to 2 feet upstream of where I think the laundry is connected. I will not know for sure until I break some more floor. I hope to be able to rent a drain camera to send on down there to see if there are more problem areas.

[cowpuc]

Bummer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mraf]

The ground in the hole is getting wetter instead of dryer. This means that there is another leak farther down stream. The ground that is getting wetter is right where I stopped digging. This means that I am going back in again and breaking more floor. While cleaning it out last time I could feel something hard about 8 feet down the pipe, that is right where the laundry is connected. There is no sign of slow flowing from the laundry connection so I am hoping that all is good after that point I was hoping that it was just a poor connection where they may have drilled a hole and shoved in a pipe and sealed around it. That laundry connection is already PVC going into the floor so it was done at a much later time than the rest of the plumbing. All of the other plumbing in the house was all poorly done so I have no reason to expect this to be done right either. This will get me almost to the 90° elbow that is under the floor. If I get to that elbow then it will be appropriate to look at getting the whole thing done all the way to the street.

 

I am running out of clothes pins for my nose................

 

A stinkie job if there ever was one. Try some Vicks-Vapo rub under your nose. It helps with the smell.

[cowpuc]

Jeff, are you on a city sewer system? If you are, while I have NO experience with such - I did work with a guy one time who was working on his home sewer that was hooked up to one and somehow he ignited some methane gas associated with the sewer and blew the system up (no idea if this is true but I was told he popped sewer pipe covers down the road when she blew ). I also know that I had to hire a contractor in to do some work on a pump station at one of our locations back when I was Managing a warehouse and I noticed those guys working on that system wore air supply whenever entering "the hole"..

Reading all this stuff about the smells associated with your project and thinking there is probably no "water trap" providing an air gap/gas blocking spot in the system that far downstream = wondered if you had given any thought/taken any precautions to keep from getting gassed or getting hurt down there from such??

[Flyinfool]

I do have all the basement windows open, the back door open and the hallway windows open. I also have a 20" fan for forced ventilation. So I hope that I am OK. Since I have the pipe open and I have had it for the night, I have a blower in the pipe to force air into the city sewer to keep gas from coming into the house. Sewer gas can be both toxic and explosive so I am keeping that in mind.

 

i did dive into it again tonight. I fond the other hole in the pipe and have dug most of the old pipe and "dirt" out. I was right, If that plumber was still alive I would be wish him all kinds of ill will. It was worse than I thought. there is a "turn" in the main line of about 30° but no elbows were used, they just twisted the pipe and slathered it with mortar, the end of the pipe was not even into the socket of the mating pipe. And where the laundry drain connected to the main line, it was PVC, BUT there was no wye, they used a hammer to break a hole into the main line, stuck the PVC pipe in and slathered some mortar around it, the PVC protruded about 2 inches into the main line. and this was very near where that stupid angled joint was, Guess where everything was getting hung up?

 

Right now I am resting a bit and then heading for bed.

 

I really hate crappy workmanship. I may not be a pro, but when I am done it will be pretty close to code.

 

I did splurge and rent a drain camera, I am glad I did, ALL of the rest of the pipe all the way to the street sewer looks like brand new. So I can now have peace of mind that there are no ticking time bombs in the rest of the line. Not even a single root penetration.

 

The only dangerous to my success thing left to do is cutting the clay pipe to attach the new PVC. The last cut I did it took me 3 tries to get a clean cut. I do not have room to do that again without breaking out more floor and doing a lot more digging to get to the next section of pipe. So tomorrow is make that scary cut and then it is just a matter cutting and gluing PVC pipe.

 

The camera also made it obvious that pushing a new pipe thru the old is not an option, the run is no where near straight enough to shove a nice straight run of PVC through it.

[baylensman]

I know this is late in the game, but, I had to do a similar job a while back with an under slab water pipe. Turn on all the water in the house and use a stehascope on the floor you can actually hear the water running through the pipe. mark the location the pipe (you'll find the exact location of your 90). Rent a K-12 or other concrete saw and run paralell groves over the pipe and two deeper ones on either side. The crete will bust right out in smaller chunks .

[Flyinfool]

There is no problem knowing exactly where the pipe is. Plumbing was not added to the house until long after it was built (1800s), You can see where they dug the trench to put it in the first time somewhere around the 1920s. I tried cutting to get nice straight lines, but it still broke out along the edges from 100 years ago.

 

The good news is that I now have all of the new pipe in. I just tested it and there are no leaks. I took a long hot shower (I needed that) and still no leaks.

I have a fan and a dehumidifier running down there to dry out the holes for a few weeks before I fill with gravel. I will let the gravel sit for a few more weeks before I cement it up.

 

But for now I will rest and eat......................