'89 Venture Royale 1300 Rehab Project - Advice needed

[wilerdr]

Hi folks. New member here. I just picked up an '89 Venture Royale, 29K miles, overall good shape but hasn't run regularly in over a year. It's my first touring bike. I've owned an inline 4 (Kawa), two Triumph in-line twins (including my current other bike) but this is my first V configuration bike. I have what I would self-assess as intermediate/advanced mechanical ability. The bike has a couple of problems that need to be addressed immediately before getting my state inspection so I can title and register it.

 

First: It's missing and it appears to be the right rear cylinder (don't know yet how the cylinders or numbered). It will only idle somewhat smoothly when it's warmed up, about middle of temp gauge. On the ride home, it was clearly missing, but when I hammered the throttle, the missing cylinder would start firing and it would pull like a train...an obvious difference in engine performance. Now, in the garage with the air box out, it bogs immediately at more than half throttle. I'm thinking that I have some seriously gummed up carbs, maybe a fuel system issue, but not entirely sure. Do I try to clean and clear out the fuel system with Seafoam or some other product without pulling, disassembling, and cleaning the carbs, or should I just go straight to getting those carbs off and giving them a thorough cleaning? Anyone experience something similar and what was the fix? I've printed off an excellent 1st Gen Carb Service tutorial and am confident that I can pull those carbs and give them a thorough going through...I'd just rather avoid it if I can get away with it.

 

Second: Front braking action is decent, but not great. Certainly not as good as I'd expect. Rear braking action is virtually non-existent. Good meat on pads all around and rotors are in good shape. I've ordered sintered brake pads all-around for it, which I'll install after I'm sure I have the braking action issues resolved. My hunch is that while the bike was sitting, some air has infiltrated and my lack of brake action can be resolved with a thorough bleeding and replacing the brake fluid. So what's the best method for brake bleeding on these bikes and what else should I check to ensure I have properly functioning, reliable brakes?

 

I've also ordered new fuel, air, and oil filters and intend to replace all the fluids to include coolant and to inspect and lube everything identified in the manual.

 

What else should I be doing to the bike to get it back into tip-top shape?

 

Thanks and happy to be aboard!

Edited February 17, 2018 by wilerdr

[Freebird]

Well I'll start with this. Forget about how it bogs down in your shop with the airbox off. These bikes simply won't run right with the airboxes off. You can take one that is running perfectly, remove that airbox, and it is going to do the same thing that yours is doing.

 

It could very well have some gummed up carbs after sitting for so long. Especially if it had old/untreated gas in it. Two things I would try first though. Change the spark plugs and then run a can or two of seafoam through it. A full can to a full tank of gas.

[BlueSky]

With the air filter off, look into the carbs while you blip the throttle to see if the diaphragms are doing their job. There is a procedure commonly referred to as a "shotgun" procedure where carb cleaner is sprayed into the jets with the carbs on the bike that might be worth a try. Do a search on this site. Cowpuc has a procedure where he fills the carb fuel bowl with carb cleaner using the drain and a turkey baster or similar to fill and drain and repeat. I suggest you check the spark plug caps for resistance and inspect the plug wires. They unscrew from the caps and tend to corrode at the joint. If the wires are corroded clip off a little bit of wire before screwing the caps back on the wires. New caps can be purchased at ngk.com. Wouldn't hurt to check the other end of the wires at the coils.

 

You may not know that the left front caliper is linked to the rear caliper. When you apply the front brake, you are only using the right front rotor unless it has been modified and delinked. You may need to clean/rebuild the calipers and or master cylinders.

[snyper316]

http://vmax.lvlhead.com/tips/shotgun.htm here is the link to shotgun method, but I would run sea foam thru first, also you might want to make sure that cap is firing correctly by getting a cheap spark gap tester unless you have one.

[Geobob]

Congratulations, I hope you got the deal you wanted. These guys can help you fix anything, they are the best. I just spent a few hours working on mine today and several time said to myself "I hate working of V4s." Everything is so tightly built together that just getting plugs and hose off the head is a ridiculous. Invest in some heavy long nose pliers and maybe just plan on replacing spring clamps with screw hose clamps. Use you phone or something to take lots of photos since a month later you may want to look to see where something went like a hose or how a wire ran. Take note when removing things it will help when you get around to reinstalling. The more you take off the easier it will be to do what you need to do. I may take more time but it might be a lot less frustrating. It will also give you a chance to clean some places that have not seen the light of day for many years.

 

I would split the brakes if you can. The system is not good. I was informed that the two front calipers on not the same so if you do away with the stock system looking into picking up a old pair of FXZ 1000 calipers. They bolt right up and should not be that expensive. Progressive front fork spring were a huge improvement over the air assisted stock set up. I have no air on my front forks now. Its a bit of a job but I would pull the rear suspension and inspect clean and fit grease fittings. They get dry and stiff and what little travel they have is lost. I had to replace a differential since it did not get greased often enough (by me for the first 10 years) so I would check that when you pull the rear tire.

 

Anything else you have a problem with is likely covered somewhere here. This group makes owning this bike realistic and manageable. Most of these bike that have been sitting around for years have some many issues that having a shop service the bike would cost way more than the bike would ever be worth. So doing the work yourself is basically mandatory. If you are willing to spend more money you can buy one that needs not work which is what I would recommend. Some of these guy bikes are in great condition and will give you years enjoyable touring. Yes thing will go wrong but nothing that cannot be fixed. Its those bikes that have been neglected for years that are best used for parts. By the time you are done putting a basket case back together you could have bought someones well maintained bike for 3-5k$

 

I have had mine for 25 years if my math is correct so in my opinion they are great bikes. Unfortunately they will have systems fail just due to age so you will be putting in some maintenance and repair time.

 

Just my 2 cents worth, now if I could only figure out where that dam part goes I could get this thing back together.

 

[bongobobny]

OK, let's start with the miss. Are your plugs new?? These V4s "eat" plugs, it is not uncommon to replace them every 10,000 miles. Next thing, are your plug wires new?? Chances are they are the original 30-year-old wires! There is also an issue whereas corrosion develops in the coil secondary output cap and kills the spark. When you unscrew the wires from the coils to inspect, be sure to trim about 1/4" from the end of the plug wire to ensure a good new contact into the coil wire center!!

 

The next issue to consider is the TCI or Transistor Controlled Ignition box, or also referred to as the ignitor box. They are not located in an ideal position and can develop water inside of the plastic box. It is mounted under the coil pack on the bottom of the bracket. Many of us have relocated the TCI on top of the airbox where it is protected a little better from moisture, and in case of failure is a whole heck of a lot easier to get to!

 

So, what can you do? Well, besides buying new plugs and wire sets (the caps can get screwed up internally too) you should invest in a spark gap tester available at most auto supply stores at a cost of around $15. You should be able to pull a spark at a gap of at least 0.100" on each cylinder! If not, then the issue could be either a bad coil or a defective TCI. By merely switching the primaries to two of the coils, you can determine if the issue is the coil or not. If the same cylinder is bad, it is the coil. If the weak/missing spark changes to a different cylinder, the TCI is to blame.

 

So, if electrically everything is OK, then the issue is carburetors! They are a very complex carb with several "circuits" to them! Do a little search here and you may find a good description of how they work! There are passageways that can get clogged up, diaphragms that can develop pinholes, and sliders that can get gummed up! As mentioned, they do NOT like to run without the proper intake restrictions so running without the airbox or filter will indeed make them run like crap!! But, as mentioned, with the airbox off, it is a good thing to watch the sliders do their "dance" when revving them up! If one of the sliders is sluggish, it can be either a torn diaphragm, a sticky slider, or possibly a plugged jet, but the "dance" is mostly from air being sucked through the carb so a clogged jet is probably not the case.

 

Try the aforementioned "shotgun" approach as it can fix a clogged passageway. Also, use one can of "Seafoam" to a full tank of gas and drive it like ya stole it!! Seafoam is our friend and can indeed fix a multitude of sins!! After that, 1/2 can to a tankful every 4 or 5 tankfuls is good preventative maintenance!

 

A vacuum leak can also foul things up! One of the most common places to go bad is those rubber "caps" over the ports that you hook up your carburetor syncing tool! They can crack and cause a leak which can mess up just one cylinder! Speaking of which, it is a good idea to sync your carbs on a yearly basis, but unless one of them is really way out in left field, it should not cause one cylinder to not fire.

 

Now, as far as brakes go, as mentioned you need to be aware that one side of the front and the rear brakes are linked! You can have an issue with the rear master cylinder or the proportioning valve which splits the brake fluid going to the rear and front calipers (there is a spring valve inside it which delays the brake fluid going to the front just slightly so the rear engages a few milliseconds before the front), or there can be air someplace in the lines, and bleeding the system can be challenging! For the front brakes, there is also a bleeder near the steering neck because the line routing puts it higher than both the rear master and the front calipers!

 

If you don't have one, there is a downloadable factory service manual for free, found in the read-only technical section. Welcome aboard, we are glad to have you and look forward to helping you as needed getting your bike into A1 shape!! You will find it to be one of the best touring bikes ever made!!! In its day it was light years ahead of the others!

[BlueSky]

I think Puc uses a big syringe bought from an agriculural supply store to fill and drain the fuel bowls, not a turkey baster.

[snyper316]

I think Puc uses a big syringe bought from an agriculural supply store to fill and drain the fuel bowls, not a turkey baster.

 

FYI Turkey baster will work tho as long as it isn't a supper cheap one. I used one to unstick a float.

[wilerdr]

Had some time to work on her today. Pulled both rear plugs and the right rear, which was missing, was definitely fouled and wet. I do have new plugs on the way, but since they aren't here yet, I unscrewed the end of that right rear plug wire, inspected it, ensured I had good connection, then cleaned that plug real well. I then switched the plugs and put the known good plug in the right rear, grounded against chassis and turned her over to inspect spark. Good spark present so I re-assembled and fired her up. Ran smoothly on all four cyclinders. Put a can of Seafoam in the tank, which is less than a quarter full so good Seafoam concentration mixed in with the fresh gas. Was even able to spin her up to about 6k rpm with the air box still out once she warmed up. I'll call that a step in the right direction. Should have a little more time to fiddle with her tomorrow.

 

The plastic 'shields' on top of the cylinder heads: What's the general consensus on running with or without those? I assume they are some type of weather/moisture shield?

 

How well do these bikes tolerate a good engine cleaner soaking and careful hose off?

 

I have some accumulated grime on the bottom of the engine that definitely needs to be cleaned off. Seems to indicate a small oil / fluid leak down there, but I'll never be able to isolate it with all the grime. With the age and mileage on the bike, I'd guess that the grime has been accumulating forever and no drips on the garage floor so I doubt it's a serious leak. And it smokes pretty good when the bike gets heated up.

 

Thanks for all the great info. Can't wait to start start getting her out on the road for the shakedowns, but still got some work to do.

[videoarizona]

Good to hear your progress.

 

The best thing for the rear brake besides new fluid is to take the rear caliper out and clean it thoroughly. Before you put new pads in, make sure the front calipers are clean and working as well. When finished working on the rear system, know you have to bleed them in proper sequence. The first is the bleeder at the steering head. Look in between the handlebars there is a bleeder there. The highest part of the rear brakes. Bleed here first, then the left front then the rear.

 

Now when this done, you are back to where the stock brakes should feel like.

 

I put an R1/R6 caliper in the rear of my 89 and the brakes woke right up!. I still have my brakes linked and really like how well they now work.

 

Enjoy working on the 89 and keep us posted! Oh...take pictures!

[bongobobny]

Those "plastic" (I think they are actually bakelite) shields were designed as heat shields to help cut down on roast nuts. Yes, they also tend to keep the rain off of the plugs. Myself, I kept them, we're not talking any huge amount of weight...

[wilerdr]

Turns out my fan isn't kicking on. Temp gauge working perfectly. Going to pull fan and bench check it off a 12V to ensure the fan itself is good, and I see the thermostat housing on the right side of the radiator bottom. Question is, where is the temp transducer that's telling the fan to turn on and off?

 

Any good sources for a thermostat, fan, and temp transducer if I need to replace any / all of them?

 

Thinking that I should replace the thermostat regardless since I'll be pulling the radiator and changing coolant anyway and I have no way of knowing if that thermostat has ever been changed. Thoughts?

[snyper316]

 

The plastic 'shields' on top of the cylinder heads: What's the general consensus on running with or without those? I assume they are some type of weather/moisture shield?

 

How well do these bikes tolerate a good engine cleaner soaking and careful hose off?

.

 

Thanks for all the great info. Can't wait to start start getting her out on the road for the shakedowns, but still got some work to do.

 

I leave the cleaning to the proffesionals every Time I do it something messes up....

 

 

[BlueSky]

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?107166-Thermostat-Cross-Link&highlight=thermostat+part+number

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?72258-Cooler-Thermostat-170%B0&highlight=thermostat+part+number

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?30874-1st-Gen-Thermostat&highlight=thermostat+part+number

[cimmer]

If you haven't located them yet, there are Yamaha service manuals located here. http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?3384-First-Gen-Service-Manuals

They are in a PDF format but are very helpful in troubleshooting and repair items on the bike.

I have left the air defectors in place on my bike as they help direct the heat away from the seat and air filter opening. They can be a PIA to remove and reinstall but once you do it a couple of times you will get the hang of it.

For the brakes, a good flush of the old brake fluid might do the trick for you. The manual will show you where the bleeders are located at and the order to do them. Also dont forget to flush the hydraulic clutch fluid also as it can collect moisture also and affect the clutch.

The temp sending unit is located under the fairing on the right side of the bike. I would suggest using the manual to troubleshoot it before pulling the fan off of the bike. Might save you a lot of time and frustration.

 

Keep asking away and we will do the best to answer your question and give you advise.

 

Rick F.

[videoarizona]

Turns out my fan isn't kicking on. Temp gauge working perfectly. Going to pull fan and bench check it off a 12V to ensure the fan itself is good, and I see the thermostat housing on the right side of the radiator bottom. Question is, where is the temp transducer that's telling the fan to turn on and off?

 

Any good sources for a thermostat, fan, and temp transducer if I need to replace any / all of them?

 

Thinking that I should replace the thermostat regardless since I'll be pulling the radiator and changing coolant anyway and I have no way of knowing if that thermostat has ever been changed. Thoughts?

 

 

 

Did you find the sensors for the fan and temp gauge?

[wilerdr]

Haven't had a chance to get any more work done. Picking up a thermostat tomorrow on the ride home from work, and should be able to get after her tomorrow evening. Got a mess of parts in the mail today with some more coming. Good times.

[RDawson]

Turns out my fan isn't kicking on. Temp gauge working perfectly. Going to pull fan and bench check it off a 12V to ensure the fan itself is good, and I see the thermostat housing on the right side of the radiator bottom. Question is, where is the temp transducer that's telling the fan to turn on and off?

 

Any good sources for a thermostat, fan, and temp transducer if I need to replace any / all of them?

 

Thinking that I should replace the thermostat regardless since I'll be pulling the radiator and changing coolant anyway and I have no way of knowing if that thermostat has ever been changed. Thoughts?

 

A lot of these bikes run way up the temp gauge before the fan kicks in. I would check for voltage and cross out the plug at the temp switch to test the fan before pulling it out. Might save some headache.

[wilerdr]

Found the temp sensor, no problem. Disconnect the cannon plug and cleaned the leads on the sensor and the plug. Metered the sensor for continuity and had none, not sure if it should have when not sending signal. I'd guess not. Also tried to hot jump the fan from a battery through the harness, no action. Not sure if that indicates the fan might be kaput, or no. Ran the bike up to the red on the temp gauge, fan did not kick on. Let it cool for about 15 minutes and did it again with no joy again. Seems likely to me I have a problem with either sensor or fan, but not sure how to proceed except to pull radiator and fan and bench check fan with a battery. Found several threads that speak to some troubleshooting procedures but haven't yet been able to dig into them. Did end up pushing some coolant out of the overflow hose on the overflow tank, but just checked the overflow tank and it drained back into the radiator now that it's cool like it's supposed to, so I guess that's a good sign.

 

What REALLY pisses me off is that when I was checking the overflow tank, which did indeed fill when the bike got really hot, I inadvertently turned the bars and broke the rotating studs off the air control housing. What an idiot. Guess I'm going to have to McGyver something for that or source another one. Really unhappy about that. But since I have the Air Control box out, I'll check out that board since I have the E4 thing going on. I did find that thread today and it's quite excellent.

 

Can't seem to get this thing to idle properly, either. It runs pretty smoothly on choke at higher RPMs, but when I take it off choke and try to adjust idle, it will eventually stall. Is this perhaps a function of having the air box out? Do these bikes historically have idle problems or setting idle problems when the air box is out?

 

At this stage of the fight, the bike is kicking my ass.

[snyper316]

Found the temp sensor, no problem. Disconnect the cannon plug and cleaned the leads on the sensor and the plug. Metered the sensor for continuity and had none, not sure if it should have when not sending signal. I'd guess not. Also tried to hot jump the fan from a battery through the harness, no action. Not sure if that indicates the fan might be kaput, or no. Ran the bike up to the red on the temp gauge, fan did not kick on. Let it cool for about 15 minutes and did it again with no joy again. Seems likely to me I have a problem with either sensor or fan, but not sure how to proceed except to pull radiator and fan and bench check fan with a battery. Found several threads that speak to some troubleshooting procedures but haven't yet been able to dig into them. Did end up pushing some coolant out of the overflow hose on the overflow tank, but just checked the overflow tank and it drained back into the radiator now that it's cool like it's supposed to, so I guess that's a good sign.

 

What REALLY pisses me off is that when I was checking the overflow tank, which did indeed fill when the bike got really hot, I inadvertently turned the bars and broke the rotating studs off the air control housing. What an idiot. Guess I'm going to have to McGyver something for that or source another one. Really unhappy about that. But since I have the Air Control box out, I'll check out that board since I have the E4 thing going on. I did find that thread today and it's quite excellent.

 

Can't seem to get this thing to idle properly, either. It runs pretty smoothly on choke at higher RPMs, but when I take it off choke and try to adjust idle, it will eventually stall. Is this perhaps a function of having the air box out? Do these bikes historically have idle problems or setting idle problems when the air box is out?

 

At this stage of the fight, the bike is kicking my ass.

 

Well I tell you what i know, you fiddle with airbox out your not gonna get proper running. You need to throw a carb sync on with airbox on well I would assume it needs to be on. That is how I have synced my carbs plus adjusted my idle mixture. These things run like pooh without airbox on..

[cimmer]

The service manual show how to troubleshoot the cooling system on page 7-49 of the XVZ13DS 86-93 Service Manual. If you dont have a service manual you can download a PDF of it from the First Gen Tech Library under guides.

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?3384-First-Gen-Service-Manuals

 

This is what I use for most of my troubleshooting and repair information when I am working on my 89 VR.

 

Hope this helps you out.

 

Rick F.

[videoarizona]

 

What REALLY pisses me off is that when I was checking the overflow tank, which did indeed fill when the bike got really hot, I inadvertently turned the bars and broke the rotating studs off the air control housing. What an idiot. Guess I'm going to have to McGyver something for that or source another one. Really unhappy about that. But since I have the Air Control box out, I'll check out that board since I have the E4 thing going on. I did find that thread today and it's quite excellent.

 

Can't seem to get this thing to idle properly, either. It runs pretty smoothly on choke at higher RPMs, but when I take it off choke and try to adjust idle, it will eventually stall. Is this perhaps a function of having the air box out? Do these bikes historically have idle problems or setting idle problems when the air box is out?

 

At this stage of the fight, the bike is kicking my ass.

 

 

1: take a picture and post about the rotating studs in the air housing. I can't picture this in my feeble brain today...

 

2: Yes and no. It will idle with air box out but will run like it has a cam in it. The problem is either in the idle circuit, the fuel line/filter/pump area(doubt this) or vacuum. I'm going to guess the idle circuit is still plugged up. It should run fine without choke once slightly warm. Plus the idle circuit does control more rpm range than just the idle (if memory serves). So the teeny passages and jet must be clean. And it's the teeny air/fuel passages that will keep it from idling well. This is where taking the carb stack out makes the job easier. Getting carb cleaner into everything, checking the orings and seats, etc.. But sometimes they can clean up without going that far.

 

Back to the basics. I had similar problem with my 89 after I first got her.

I took off the plug wires, clipped the ends and re-inserted. Put new plugs in. Sprayed carb cleaner into the carb throats while using throttle to keep her running. Took out the diaphrams and checked for holes and cleaned the slides. Did the reverse flush cowpuc recommended with cleaner up into the overflow tube. That goes right into the bowl. Then put her back together with Seafoam in tank and ran her like heck on the back roads. When she came alive, I was nearly thrown off the seat. It took some patience as cleaning carbs without taking them out can be a long process...and I didn't want to take them out yet...bike was still new to me. OH..make sure the diaphrams are not pinched and seated properly when you put the covers back on!!

 

Since then, I changed out the plug wires and caps with a new set found on EBay. Changed plugs again. Added a K&N air filter.....and so forth.

 

Bottom line. If you get frustrated...walk away. Then come back and do one thing at a time. You will get her running well and the results will be worth it! They really are easy bikes to maintain. For me...only the carbs are a bit of a trial. But now I keep the fuel clean with Seafoam and run her hard once in a while. Preventive maintenance is so much fun on this scoot! Twist the throttle and go!

 

Awaiting pic of the Class control ....

Edited February 22, 2018 by videoarizona
add explanation and guess...

[BlueSky]

If you haven't seen them, you might want to see these videos. There are 12 of them and all are on the internet.

 

[wilerdr]

Here are pics of the Air Control Housing that I broke the rotating studs off. What I'm thinking is instead of trying to find a new (used) housing, that I can rig up a sheet aluminum 'wrap' around it, to which I can secure new metal studs. Tolerances aren't tight, so I don't think that would be an issue. But that one is well down the list at this point. I would have tried to do some type of plastic fusing the studs back in place, but they disappeared when I broke them off and haven't seen them since.

 

Will get some decent pics of the bike in it's current state of disassembly this week.

 

Before I started breaking down the cooling system, I made sure I checked fuses. Sure enough, the 10A fan fuse was blown. Didn't run it up, since I was going to drain coolant and change thermostat anyway. Got the plugs changed, plug wires clipped, coolant drained, and radiator and fan off. Bench checked fan and it's good, which was a relief.

 

Manual says to check voltage on the blue lead if the fan checks good, which I did but didn't get any voltage. The manual isn't terribly precise regarding that procedure and I'm wondering if voltage should be present at the blue lead only if the bike is up to temp. Not sure.

 

In any case, I know I have a good fan and now have a good fuse. So once I change coolant and button it back up, run it up to temp, the fan should activate unless the temp sending unit is bad...I think. Provided it doesn't blow a fuse when it runs up to temp, which might indicate I have a problem with wiring.

 

Now for the next "new guy" question: How do I get to the back thermostat housing bolt? Drop the right pipe? Seems to be the only way to get to it and the manual is no help.

[cimmer]

Looking at the wiring diagram, I would not expect voltage on the blue wire when the engine is cold. I would only expect it when the engine is into the red on the temp gauge. With the ignition in the on position, you should have voltage on one side of the thermo switch and nothing on the other end. You could short the two connectors for the thermo switch together and then turn on the ignition and the fan should start up and run. That would let you know if it doesnt run with the engine is in the red then the thermo switch most likely is bad.

 

With the thermostat housing, I was able to get mine off with the exhaust pipes on, but had the radiator hose off of it along with the radiator. This opens up the area and lets you get a different angel on it. You might need some swivel joint sockets to help out with it.

 

If you havent yet, I would look at replacing your starter with a 4 brush starter. This will help with the starting issues that this bikes have when they are hot. You can find them used on ebay from time to time and you can do a search in the forums here to help you finding what you are looking for. You almost need to have the thermostat housing out to replace it as it makes it a breeze to do then.

 

Hope this helps.

Rick F.