2nd gear issues with the 83, 84 and some 85 Ventures... Questions:

[pvw10121]

2nd gear issues with the 83, 84 and some 85 Ventures...

 

Q1: Are there multiple 2nd gear issues with the early model Venture's?... or, is it one defect that affects so many?

 

Q2: I read posts where riders are riding their Ventures with a bad 2nd gear. Do any of you know if it is as simple as shifting through and bypassing 2nd gear in order to ride a bike with the 2nd gear issue?

 

Q3: can anyone explain what you feel/hear/notice with the 2nd gear issue? Is it as simple as you don't have 2nd gear and you shift around it? Or, is it crazy noisy and clunky as you shift through it?

 

Q4: if the price is right (read cheap... very very cheap!) would it be a bad idea to purchase a Venture that has a 2nd gear issue --with the thought of riding it for a little while?... and then either fixing the issue or using the bike as a parts bike? (Or should one stay far away from this type purchase?)

 

Q5: for those of you that have R/R'd the 2nd gear issue... would you attempt it again? Was it too much work? (Does anyone remember (estimate) the amount of time it took them?).

 

I'm seeing some reasonably nice looking bikes with 2nd gear issues. Just trying to determine if I should consider them options... or if I should stay away from them (in any of your opinions).

 

Thanks!

Pwells

[Flyinfool]

I guess it all depends on who you talk to.

 

You Have @cowpuc who had 4 or 5, '83 ventures with the 2nd gear issue that he ran each one out to around 250K miles just by skipping 2nd gear.

 

Others are a bit OCD and will dive in to fix it. It is extremely expensive to pay someone to fix it. it is only worth it if you do it your self. It does require pulling the engine and splitting the case to replace some parts in transmission.

 

When 2nd gears goes bad it simply will start to pop out of 2nd gear when under load, it starts by only popping out under a very heavy load and the amount of load to pop it out gradually gets less until it just will not stay in 2nd gear at all. This does not affect any other gears and as Puc has demonstrated it has no bearing on the life of the bike.

[cowpuc]

2nd gear issues with the 83, 84 and some 85 Ventures...

 

Q1: Are there multiple 2nd gear issues with the early model Venture's?... or, is it one defect that affects so many?

 

Q2: I read posts where riders are riding their Ventures with a bad 2nd gear. Do any of you know if it is as simple as shifting through and bypassing 2nd gear in order to ride a bike with the 2nd gear issue?

 

Q3: can anyone explain what you feel/hear/notice with the 2nd gear issue? Is it as simple as you don't have 2nd gear and you shift around it? Or, is it crazy noisy and clunky as you shift through it?

 

Q4: if the price is right (read cheap... very very cheap!) would it be a bad idea to purchase a Venture that has a 2nd gear issue --with the thought of riding it for a little while?... and then either fixing the issue or using the bike as a parts bike? (Or should one stay far away from this type purchase?)

 

Q5: for those of you that have R/R'd the 2nd gear issue... would you attempt it again? Was it too much work? (Does anyone remember (estimate) the amount of time it took them?).

 

I'm seeing some reasonably nice looking bikes with 2nd gear issues. Just trying to determine if I should consider them options... or if I should stay away from them (in any of your opinions).

 

Thanks!

Pwells

 

Hi PW and to VR!!!

 

Now to answering your questions from, as my buddy FlyinFool would put it,, one person's perspective:

 

A1: There is one defect that has caused the second gear issue with all pre mid 1985 and prior Ventures. It is/was a soft thrust washer and thrust washer plate. As these parts wear they allow the 2nd Gear engagement dogs to,,, wait a second,, I just posted the pics up of what exactly is going on in another thread. I am going to repost those pics here for your enjoyment to complete my answer for you. You will find them below!

A2: Yes, it is that simple. It is not quite what I would call shifting thru (just trying to make it clear for any one else reading this thread - I am sure you dont need this further explaination). I call it "short shifting". What I have personally done sucessfully with all my Ventures starting as far back as 1987 is shifting from 1st to second and then shifting again from 2nd to 3rd without engaging the clutch when I hit second. Just note - there is no "trick" shifting method going on, no going directly to 3rd from 1st = trannies are not built to do this. Ya still gotta go thru the action of shifting into second with your toe, releasing the shifter at second and then hitting it again to go into 3rd. It's not hard and these bikes pull hard enough that drag racing from a dead stop and putting a major whoopin on air cooled big twin scoots almost twice the Cubic Inch is still very easy once ya get the technique down pat.

A3: I definitely can tell you what you will hear and feel as the 2nd goes south. All be well and normal as the soft thrust washer loses tolerance until one day, you will go into second gear and you will feel and here a slight "clunk clunk" as the dogs slip across the faces of their mating surface. It's all down hill from there as the "clunk clunk" will become more the norm than the occasion.. A short time later, in my experience = within 2k miles, and the sound will go from "clunk clunk" to a pretty good GRIND sound as you rev in 2nd and make no forward motion. On two of my scoots I tried, unsuccessfully, to save my 2nd gear for only occasions where I would need it once it started to go.. This does not work as it is NOT the gear face or the gear dogs themselves that are creating the real issue (although - the dogs do take the punishment) - because its hardness (or lack thereof) of the washer and plate that is the issue = there is nothing you can do to accumulate or save 2nd gear for later useage. If you shift thru 2nd gear like I talk about in A2 you will notice no more noise then a normal tranny.. Matter of fact, I have put many thousands of miles of smiles on these bikes with no second gear, in countless applications from drag racing them to 2 up mountain touring to riding in groups of bikes that were hundreds of bikes in attendance and, unless I had told someone = no one would even know that my bike had no 2nd gear.

A4: Because I am one cheap, underhanded and low life lop eared biker varmint who really has very little interest in putting large amounts of $$ into 2 wheels and a motor BUT I still LOVE touring long distances with family/friends in tow = I have actually made a touring career out of doing exactly what you are suggesting here. Unlike in my business practice when I owned my bike shop where I "bought low, added value, sold high" = when it came to these 2nd gearless Ventures I sought out "Buy low = very low", value added by getting them running again if they had been sitting for a long time but NEVER fixed the real problem (which was the very reason why I got em low in the first place) and made my profits on them by riding them out for the next 200k plus without fixing em. As far as staying far away from one with the 2nd gear issue,, and again = consider the source on this answer, no way = I actually went hunting them every time I finished wearing one out!!

A5: While I cant speak specifically to this answer cause I have personally never repaired a Venture 2nd gear, I do have to say that I was very very blessed by some dear friends of mine (@Carbon_One and his wonderful wife, Joyce) who offered us our latest 83 1st Gen = WITH REPAIRED 2ND GEAR at a very very special deal (THANK YOU AGAIN LARRY!!!). This one, being our 6th one, is the ONLY one I have ever had that had a second gear and WOWZY is it FUN!! Nailing second on a speed shift and lofting the front end with NO FEAR is,, well,, is extremely special.. It took me a LONG time to get beyond the short shift (still do it occasionally - old habits die hard). So now,, the question you gotta be asking is,, do you wish you would have sought out the repair on the others,,, no - no I dont.. Short shifting is just not that big of deal when talking about a touring bike and the fun they represent..

 

Finally,, in answering that final line as to whether or not you should jump in and grab one.... Something to consider in the difference between what I (and many many others) have been thru,, we were dealing with bikes that were only a few years old in a lot of cases. All those other parts and pieces were still fairly fresh. We are now talking about 34 year old scoots regardless of how many miles are on em. Then there is the bike market itself - WOWZY is it flatlined!! I just read an article about how bad things are with HD and the cut backs they are issuing. I also just read that Polaris just signed the papers to release the left over NOS Victory inventory that their dealers are setting on for what ever the market will pay = could be seeing new touring bikes for under 5 grand (sounds nuts but it is possible). All that DIRECTLY effects the value of used bikes. I just passed up a 2nd Gen here locally for 2 grand = a 20 year newer V-4 than what we are talking about. So,, all that said,, lets say someone gives you a nice looking, no second gear 1st Gen that has sat for 20 years. You are, at a minimum = gonna have to redo carbs, new water pump, stator, air filter, progressive springs, fork seals, tires, brake pads and calipers, clutch slave, hoses, fuse block and all fluids to make er dependable. You will end up with + 1200 bucks into her with you doing the work AND, your gonna be short shifting thru 2nd every mile,, mile after mile PLUS = every wire connector, electrical device, seal, gasket, bearing and on and on and on in that scoot are 34 years old.. I think I would take the cash and put it toward a newer scoot if this is about just wanting something to ride.. On the same token though,, these original Mk1 1st Gens are very special - there are a few of us around this joint (myself being one) that honestly think and wish that Mom Yam would have just reintroduced the bikes we are talking about as the new Venture (speaking for myself = I am dead serious about that). Knowing what I know and having spent many many hundreds of hours on them in countless crazy situations I gotta say = IMHO, they really truly are the best kept secret in Touring bike history.. If you are like minded with that - by all means = GRAB ONE and get to spinning wrenches!!

Thats my story and I'm stickin to it!!

Puc

[gaj1917]

2nd gear issues with the 83, 84 and some 85 Ventures...

 

Q5: for those of you that have R/R'd the 2nd gear issue... would you attempt it again? Was it too much work? (Does anyone remember (estimate) the amount of time it took them?).

 

Pwells

 

I undertook 2nd gear repair on my '84 a couple of winters ago. (see link below for details.) It's a ton of work, with many challenges, but very educational and rewarding in the end. I didn't keep track of the hours I logged, but there were a LOT. I think the biggest job is just getting the engine out and back in again. The rest of the work is pretty straightforward. Aside from fixing 2nd gear, with the engine out it's a great opportunity to give everything a once over and repair as necessary. I installed a new clutch slave cylinder and 4-brush starter, for example.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?120493-Second-gear-repair-redux&highlight=redux

[ChurchBuilder]

Here’s my experience with pulling engines and 2nd gear issues:

 

Q1: I believe 2nd gear problems were blamed on a split thrust washer in the middle gear area. Can’t remember the part name or number but that part was cheap

 

Q2: My 84 Venture never had an issue with 2nd gear but I bought a Vmax with no 2nd gear. I rode it for 2.5 years that way and got used to it. Pain in the butt so I finally did the repair myself.

 

Q3: On the Vmax it would pop out under acceleration. Also was hard to get into 2nd. Finally it became difficult to get past 2nd into 3rd so I decided to fix it.

 

Q4: I did not do a 2nd gear change on my Venture but I did have to change the middle gear do I did pull the engine and split the cases. It cost me about $550 for parts, gaskets, etc. that covered seals, gaskets and new middle gear part (splined thing I can’t remember the name).

For my Vmax 2nd gear it was about $350 ( I had a spare 2nd gear from a Venture that fit right in so that was free). There are 2nd gears on eBay, etc for a couple hundred bucks.

I changed the split thrust washer on my Venture when I was in there and never had issues the entire time I had it. Sold it with 76,000 miles this year.

 

Q5: I did my engine work over a winter. One in 2004 and one in 2016. It took all winter but I took my time and wasn’t in a hurry.

There is a great video series of how to build a Vmax Motor from the ground up that I watched several times. These engines are very similar so it would be a great help for you.

 

 

I did the Vmax because I knew I could change the gears and I wanted the bike for what I paid. I think you might be able to find a newer Venture without the 2nd gear issue for less than what you’ll have in an older one.

 

Good luck! I hope I answered your questions

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Venturous Randy]

The perfect combination for gear ratios is to use a 2nd gen gear set and a V Max final drive. 1st is about 10% lower, 2nd is 5% lower, 3rd and 4th the same and 5th is about 5% higher geared. This gives you better lower gear acceleration and makes running at higher highway speeds much more comfortable. It is not a big deal on putting a V Max final drive in a 1st gen, but in a 83/85, you will need a MKII driveshaft. An advantage of that is it has the spline lubrication that is part of the gear grease. I think the V Max drive on a 1st gen uses a different plastic dust cover, but I'm not sure which one it is. I just remember that when I received my V Max drive, it had a new dust cover with it.

In using the 2nd gen gear setup, you will need the entire gear assembly with the forks and gear tumbler. Another advantage with this is the gear tumbler does not have the pins that are prone to come loose. It is a one piece unit.

These gear assemblies come up occasionally on ebay, usually from Pinwall. but I have not seen Pinwall breaking down 2nd gen engines like I used to, but I also have not been paying attention. I have a complete 2nd gen gear assembly if anyone is interested.

Randy

[mraf]

Just to throw in my because Puc gave you the whole gold mine in his answers. I bought a used 83 many years ago for us to tour the west. It did not have a 2nd gear that would stay in gear under acceleration either. But after reading other stories about this bike not really needing it or it not hurting the bike in the long run we took off on our trip west. Like it was said by many others it was no problem on our trip. I did fix it before I sold it. It was a fairly easy fix if you are mechanically inclined. Just take you time doing it and follow Yamahas manual.