Steering issue 2007 Midnight Venture

[Dakota Venture]

Hello everyone,

 

New guy here, just bought a new (new to me) 07 Midnight Venture with just over 30K miles. So I bought the Bike locally and from what I believe to be the the second owner, really nice guy. OK, here's the issue... the bike feels squirrely at most any speed, not continuously but every so often it has that subtle tar snake pull in a left or right direction (very slight and almost imperceptible) by this I mean that the bike will exhibit a slight squirm, (so hard to explain) it almost feels like I am riding a slight ridge and that the bike wants to track off of that high spot. It's not a scary twitch but it is a subtle variance in steering geometry feel that is confusing for an experienced rider that knows it shouldn't be there. And to clarify it does this with somewhat obvious inputs (to some degree) from the roadway but from imperfections that should not influence the handling of an 800+ lb bike. Not to say I am an experienced rider for a bike of this size and configuration but I have ridden bikes since I was a young boy, and as an adult with bikes up to 900cc engines. And I can say without any uncertainty that this "very slight" squirm/shimmy" is not typical. It even seems to overcome the centrifugal force of the wheels at highway speeds... again not scary but an irrational feeling that the input to the handle bars is not right...

 

To me at speed a bike has a tendency to want to track straight and true due to centrifugal force and you almost need to force inputs to change direction or even make make slight course corrects... not so with my new ride, I find myself fighting (by fighting i mean continual, not hard or heavy inputs) to keep this bike in a small lane that I like to call my happy spot on the road... for lack of a better term, it wanders but not in a predictable manner, the wander is haphazard like riding a razor edge with subtle dancing left or right, almost like its fighting my slight and light touch corrections. And yeah obviously there are some roads where this wandering is "kinda" normal like tar snakes, ridges from crappy asphalt upgrades, raised center in a lane and wheel depressions from truck traffic but my bike does this all the time., even on smooth patches of concrete on the I94 and that just seems wrong...

 

I did some research and even found a thread here on this site that seemed to be a good possible cause with what I thought was a similar handling issue, prior to that I had originally thought that it was just the tires... in fact that is what the guy I bought it from had eluded to, in that it had a slight handling issue that he couldn't pin down, and here's the rub... after careful re-evaluation of two small dings in the top of the front fender I had a startling revelation... and guys I feel stupid for not connecting the dots sooner, anyhow the two dings in the top of the fender located directly between the front forks wasn't from an improperly located leather tool bag crunched, or dropped tool (as I had originally thought) those two small dents are from the driving light "cross bar".... The two dings line up perfectly with the two metal tabs located just under the plastic chrome piece that covers the front of the light bar, at first I was like "what", there's no way the front fork should be able to travel that distance and strike the fender, right? OK, so I feel foolish for not making that epic leap before I handed over the $4500.00 for this bike. So, long story even longer...

 

These two very slight dimples were the only damage on this bike, and I went over it with a fine tooth comb... and literally guys this thing has zero road rash on any part of it, even the highway bars/engine guards (nothing) one scrape on the curb side floor board that I actually put on it four blocks from the guys house I bought it from. So aside from a few scratches and swirls in the beautiful (and apparently original) raven paint scheme this bad boy has had an easy life, I mean, all the chrome, aluminum, the plastic, and rubber looks pristine... OK so it's not a show bike but for a bike of this age and what I would think of as "type" of service duty it should typically be subjected to, its pretty darn nice.

 

So my question to those of you who know these bikes better than the back of your hand.... what are my first steps (order of precedence) to resolve this issue and fix my new baby without breaking the bank with expensive and meaningless diagnostics from a local service shop, and possibly spending a fortune replacing parts that need not be replaced (process of elimination) a tactic that service shops seem to love to do... and actually get this bad boy to handle like the dream I know your bikes handle, which may or may not be perfect... but certainly smooth and most importantly predictable.

 

Well gentlemen please feel free to ask any questions and call me out on anything I over looked or might have eluded to that is BS, you won't hurt my feelings, I'm the newbie when it comes to touring bikes (some may say that motorcycles are motorcycles) but most of us nearing AARP age know that generalizations are only good as, "a means to an end" (gets you pointed in a general direction) but certainly lacks any conviction or solid connection to the truth. I made that mistake with my new RV, and I learned from eating crow with my RV communities that just because a person has been doing something since they were twenty does not mean you have the right track, or right answers in many cases... apples and oranges in some cases

 

Looking forward to your help in getting me back on the road next spring (Riding season in ND is almost done) with a Bike that handles as well or better than it looks. Pretty tall order cause these bikes are beautiful... I remember drooling over the first gens back in the eighties thinking how cool they looked compared to other bikes at the time (that engine and drive... way ahead of their time) but now I love the mixture of that cruiser touring look. I finally have a great bike that I love the look of just need help with the handling, will post pictures soon!

 

Srry so wordy I'll work on that for the next post...

 

Best regards all,

 

Dakota Venture

[Marcarl]

Off hand I would investigate 2 things. One is a front fork rebuild with progressive springs, and two is to check the steering head for proper torque.

[BratmanXj]

Off hand I would investigate 2 things. One is a front fork rebuild with progressive springs, and two is to check the steering head for proper torque.

 

As well as swing arm bearings... I purchased my '99 with 46k miles and had to grease and re-torque both front (steering head) and rear (swing arm) before it felt stable.

 

Edit: You don't mention what tires are on the bike nor the age of the rubber. I know many here do not like the OEM Bridgestones and tend to have similar complaints of vague feeling to the bike.

[sldunker]

Many things can cause a vague handling feeling on these bikes. I have the same year Venture as you that I purchased brand new in 08. I also felt the same about the handling on it as you do. I have repacked steering head brgs and adjusted them, redid swing arm brgs., Have installed Sonic front springs and this all helped make the bike much more solid. I just recently install a new rear shock from Hagon and I feel this was also a big improvement in handleing. I also replaced the front shock oil. New tires always make a big difference. I have over 110,000 miles on this bike and it handles very well. Especially for a bike this large. No one thing seemed to make the biggest difference in the handling but a lot of little things together made a huge difference. Be patient and work on it a little at a time and I am sure you will get the bike to handle the way you like it. Good Luck

[cowpuc]

Back when I was still playing around with motorcycles I snatched up a left over Vertemati mx bike for cheap at auction.. Cool scoot,, gear driven top end, pancake pistoned machine that pulled like a YZF on steriods. Thing was a European work of art if there ever was such a thing.

Guy walks into the front room of my shop, takes one peek at that 3 year old brand new $14000 (MSRP) Italian Stallion on sale for 7 grand, buys it and heads for the MX track.. Couple days later he comes back and tells me the VOR is awesome to look at but totally unrideable.. He's got the machine in back of his truck,, we unload it so I can take it for spin..

I noticed what he was talking about when I came into the first loose sand berm at high speed, the bike had a mind of its own and didnt mind telling the rider it and he were on two different tracks.. Steer stem issues instantly came to my mind so I motored the thing back to the shop, raised its front end and hooked up my fish scale to its handle bars to see what kind resistance to turn it had.. Looked fine except for a slightly noticable jerky movement in the scale when put to task.. Ripped the bearings out of the neck, cleaned up the bearings for a close look and BINGO = the bearings had developed a bad spot from setting in one place for an extended length of time.

I would do all the simple things like raise the scoot, spin the tires looking for signs of belt slippage and checking tire air pressures and tread patterns for wear before rippin her down though... Smack the calipers to back em off a little so ya got no brake drag then check wheel bearings for slop is also easy enough.. Waggeling on the swing arm too to check for looseness is a good plan.. In the end though,, if I am reading what I think I am reading here, it sure sounds like a steer bearing with a bad spot in it..

On another note, since you mentioned the strange fender dings I would also do a simple frame check.. Lay down on the road and have someone ride the scoot directly toward you (do this in a big parking lot so some kid texting his girlfriend while he's driving his Dad's SUV doesn't come along and run over you while your laying in the middle of the road). Look down the axis of the tires where they meet the pavement while the bike is coming directly at you.. Make sure they line up and are not off set.. It's amazing how easily a frame can tweek at a steer neck if a heavy tour bike gets tagged in the front end, especially hard enough to bottom the forks and bend a fender if the bars were at lock when the bottoming happened .. A tweeked frame can cause some strange steer "feelings" to a rider who is in tune to noticing such things = especially when we are talking about an experienced rider such as yourself..

Sheesh,, I hope some of what I just wrote makes some kind of sense to someone besides me

[cowpuc]

Srry so wordy I'll work on that for the next post...

 

Best regards all,

 

Dakota Venture

 

P.S. = no reason to apologize for being wordy Dakota.. There's a couple of lop eared varmints wandering around here at the club house who can verify that :Im not listening tois actually a complimentary attribute.. Besides, IMHO, your little 3 minute thesis is nothing compared to the likes of the champion :Im not listening toer's known herein as @Marcarl and @saddlebum .. I will say this though,, with a little bit of practice (ya gotta practice practice practice if ya wanna be good at anything ya wanna be good at) - perhaps you could join the two of them at a rally somewhere and give your skills a shot.. If ya work at it hard enough maybe we could end up with The 3 Mouthkateers instead of just The Dynamic Duo Flappers that we have had to listen to for many years around here..

[Marcarl]

Thanks for the compliment Puc, I didn't know I rated as well as Saddlebum,,,, It's a nice feeling to be in class alone with just 3, and I'll not say who the third one would be, but he is the leader, and Bum and myself are still learners in that dept,,,, and Bum being younger than I is, is learnin much faster.

[vzuden]

Dakota,

Another thing to look at would be the front tire size. Some of us have switched to the 130 size tire in order to improve low speed handling. I have not done so because in reading posts from others there is a concern of it affecting higher speed handling in a detrimental way. I improved my low speed handling by raising the rear at the shock by changing out the leveling links. Others have accomplished the same by lowering the front at the forks but this would be more for those who cannot afford the slightly higher seat position. It could be your previous owner has changed links/lowered forks plus changed the tire size. I would tend to lean towards the forks being lowered as that may have contributed to your dented front fender.

 

As already mentioned, look into the steering head bearing adjustment. There is a description in the tech area of how to test. Then a shortcut to adjust plus the more involved cleaning and repacking the bearings with adjustment to follow. Personally, I repack the head bearings and the swing arm bearings every 20,000 miles.

[bongobobny]

Yup, lotsa possibilities!! Front tire condition would be the first thing to look at followed by proper torque on the steering head bearings. Bad wheel bearings could be a possibility as well as a warped rotor! One thing that would be a good check, but kinda on the way out there thing, is check for equal air pressure on both forks! If one fork has 7 psi and the other zero psi it could intermittently cause an oscillation! Yes, swing arm bearings and bushings can also cause issues.

 

Wish we had a stock answer for you but we don't...

[baylensman]

When I first got mine (07) I always felt as if I was on top of the bike trying to guide it, not really relaxing into the seat. As mentioned before getting rid of the original tires (even though they had a lot of life in them) and adding the leveling links ( shorter links make the rear taller) and raising the back of the bike a scant 1" made all the difference. I can turn mine inside a space and half in the parking lot with both of us on the bike now, and its surprising how loose the nut behind the bars can be!

 

Now on long trips I no longer feel that i'm waiting or tensing up, for it to squirrel on me. Last trip to theater coast My brother and I went almost 3 hours non-stop on the slab, switching from asphalt to concrete and back even on the grooved payment near Orlando i had no issues. Its also very predictable in the rain now.

[XV1100SE]

Simple reason for the dings on top of the fender. Unless there is an extender on the passing lights to push it forward in the mounted position, when you take the fairing apart you have to remove the passing lights. One oops moment and the passing lights drop and hit the top of the fender. For the previous owner(s) to hit something that would push the fender up into the passing light bar it must have been one heck of a bump/speed ! No way it was from this. Take the simple answer....someone had butter fingers.

 

On the steering head, lift the bike (use a CarbonOne lift adapter and get one if you don't already have it - check classifieds).... turn the front wheel to the LEFT at a 45 degree angle and let go. The wheel should not move. If it does, follow the instructions on tightening the steering head - loosen the top nut on the steering head, and underneath use a flat bladed screw driver and a hammer to tighten (clockwise direction) the interlocked rings until the steering holds at 45 degrees.

 

30,000 miles....forks should still have fluid in them, shouldn't be an issue. Probably second or third set of tires - what is on the bike and how much tread left, what does the wear look like like - even wear?. I'm betting the steering head is not tight enough. I check/tighten mine every 10,000 km.

[videoarizona]

That slight wander/ falling off a lip motion is the front tire. That's my educated guess! Some tires do it more than others, but all at times, will have an issue with tar snakes that grab the tire and wiggle it a bit. It is usually caused by tire pressure or wear issues. Some times by design of tread. The Pirelli's on my 05 RSV, I thought were great when new, but now, after about 8K miles, the front end really grabs the tar snake. It's only for a second but it's there now! I take it that's what you are thinking of? Plus it now wanders in the lane grooves.

 

That wandering around in the lane can be the same thing, except caused by the wear on the road surface. Since most states and cities are letting roads go longer, there are now running grooves or depressions in the lanes where most car tires run. If you happen to be on that road surface, getting up on the edge of the depression will cause most tires to either ride up or down the edge. This will cause a wandering effect.

 

Suggest a bit more riding (yay!) to narrow this down.

 

She should track straight as an arrow with a 150 or a 130 front tire. The original front end geometry says so. Only external forces should force the bike off the straight and narrow. I'm going with the 130 to ease off on the low speed handling. I really didn't like having to push the bars around to turn. And then once the turn was initiated, having to pull back to hold the turn. Almost like if I let go in a turn, she would snap into the turn fast and knock me off. But that's the nature of the fat front tire and front geometry. Designed to go straight. OH...lowering the front end about an inch will help with low speed handling and may be the cause of those dimples on the shock cases. Check to see if the top of the shocks are even with the triple tree. If yes, then the shocks need help. If no, then the front end is lowered and a big pot hole caused the shocks to hit. Less fork travel when lowered.

 

Yea, it could be the steering bearings are a tad loose, or the rear swing arm bushings might be worn or dry...but my bet is going to be the tires, front and rear. Last thought would be check oil level on front shocks.

 

My 89 VR has Shinko 230 Tourmasters and they ride straight with no issues. The tires before hand, Metzeler 880's, ran great until they got some miles on them. Then they too got squirly as well as the rear chunking off chunks.

Edited October 11, 2017 by videoarizona
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[Dakota Venture]

Hey Guys,

 

So awesome to be able to pull from such a deep knowledge pool, all great inputs and some mirrored my own suspicions. I never offered to much of what I thought so as to lead anyone in one direction or another. After the weather got cold I made a rookie mistake and didn't check my tire pressure on the last couple of rides and I thought to myself "while on those rides" that the handling issue seemed better. ahem... then I aired up the front tire from 27 to 38 and the issue I had felt previously came back even worse than I had remembered, it became a little more exaggerated... again hard to describe "squirrely" riding a ridge?

 

So, some of you or possibly all were curious about the tires. Well they are about what I would say are fifty percent, a little less maybe in the center and the wear appears to be quite even. Here are the sizes and make:

 

Front: Avon AV71 Cobras 150/80-16 (71H

Rear: Avon Cobra Venom-X 150/90B15 (80H)

 

I never looked at the tires that close... assumption being they are a matched set... I'm not a big tire guy (knowledge wise) but it seems the rear tire is bia belted and front is a radial and as for the sizes... well I leave that up for discussion.

 

I'll be trying to work some the suggestions you gentlemen have brought forward... I've been around and on bikes most of my life but that is not to say I am by any stretch an experienced rider or mechanic... I know just enough about things to get me in trouble. I look to those of you on this forum to help guide and educate me on my new ride.

 

Especially this particular issue as I had a rather unsettling experience the other day in the Badlands around Killdeer... coming up out of a long deep coulee on a curve to pass an oil truck (yep, there was a slow lane on this hill) on a smooth patch of asphalt I leaned into the curve poured on the power and half way around the truck at about 65-70 MPH I went into a what I call an oscillation much like a wobble only slightly different. I held speed so as not to exaggerate what ever the heck I was experiencing, needless to say my sphincter had a firm grip on the pillow-top seat as we rounded the corner and as I gradually leaned back to a more upright neutral position the oscillation/wobble decreased and stopped. Now I don't know how many of you have ever had the pleasure of having your bike feel like it's trying to squirm out from underneath you or better yet shake you off but I can assure you that this was the closest I've come to losing control of a bike of this size at highway speeds and when I looked at all the options I had as to where I would end up ie... under the truck, into the guard rail or over and thrown clear off a two hundred foot drop... well lets just say that a moment like this provide a great deal of what I call "clarity". Up until that point all I had was a bike that made me feel uneasy... now. Well now I am not sure what I feel, but I definitely need to get it resolved. And for the record I had check my air pressure that morning on both tires and all was good F-38 & 40ish-R

 

So thanks for all your input up to this point and I appreciate any further help and insight you might provide.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Dakota Venture

[cowpuc]

Hey Guys,

 

So awesome to be able to pull from such a deep knowledge pool, all great inputs and some mirrored my own suspicions. I never offered to much of what I thought so as to lead anyone in one direction or another. After the weather got cold I made a rookie mistake and didn't check my tire pressure on the last couple of rides and I thought to myself "while on those rides" that the handling issue seemed better. ahem... then I aired up the front tire from 27 to 38 and the issue I had felt previously came back even worse than I had remembered, it became a little more exaggerated... again hard to describe "squirrely" riding a ridge?

 

So, some of you or possibly all were curious about the tires. Well they are about what I would say are fifty percent, a little less maybe in the center and the wear appears to be quite even. Here are the sizes and make:

 

Front: Avon AV71 Cobras 150/80-16 (71H

Rear: Avon Cobra Venom-X 150/90B15 (80H)

 

I never looked at the tires that close... assumption being they are a matched set... I'm not a big tire guy (knowledge wise) but it seems the rear tire is bia belted and front is a radial and as for the sizes... well I leave that up for discussion.

 

I'll be trying to work some the suggestions you gentlemen have brought forward... I've been around and on bikes most of my life but that is not to say I am by any stretch an experienced rider or mechanic... I know just enough about things to get me in trouble. I look to those of you on this forum to help guide and educate me on my new ride.

 

Especially this particular issue as I had a rather unsettling experience the other day in the Badlands around Killdeer... coming up out of a long deep coulee on a curve to pass an oil truck (yep, there was a slow lane on this hill) on a smooth patch of asphalt I leaned into the curve poured on the power and half way around the truck at about 65-70 MPH I went into a what I call an oscillation much like a wobble only slightly different. I held speed so as not to exaggerate what ever the heck I was experiencing, needless to say my sphincter had a firm grip on the pillow-top seat as we rounded the corner and as I gradually leaned back to a more upright neutral position the oscillation/wobble decreased and stopped. Now I don't know how many of you have ever had the pleasure of having your bike feel like it's trying to squirm out from underneath you or better yet shake you off but I can assure you that this was the closest I've come to losing control of a bike of this size at highway speeds and when I looked at all the options I had as to where I would end up ie... under the truck, into the guard rail or over and thrown clear off a two hundred foot drop... well lets just say that a moment like this provide a great deal of what I call "clarity". Up until that point all I had was a bike that made me feel uneasy... now. Well now I am not sure what I feel, but I definitely need to get it resolved. And for the record I had check my air pressure that morning on both tires and all was good F-38 & 40ish-R

 

So thanks for all your input up to this point and I appreciate any further help and insight you might provide.

 

Ya know what,, I think you may have just answered your own question and the answer lines up perfectly with where videoarizona was suggesting. One of 6 of my rear tires for this season Tweeks - my 1st Gen was a Venom X. When I first got the X I noticed it had variating tread patterns which I thought was kind of cool looking and possibly good for variating road conditions/terrain. As the tire wore though I did notice a lot of very similar "feelings" like you mention and those feelings happened a lot more as the tire wore. DEFINITELY not a confidence inspiring hunk of rubber IMHO.

Also, IMHO, if you truly are in fact mixing a radial with a bias = I would stay away from that just for fear of setting myself up for the same "feelings" in cornering you are experiencing.

I would strongly suggest before doing anything else that you slip a new set of shoes on your steed before going any farther. I put a cheap set of Shinko's on my 1st Gen to replace my Venom's and all of what you are referring to in exactly what you are feeling instantly disappeared.

Personally I will not go back to a tire whose tread does not match all the way around (does what I am talking about here make sense? I can make a short video of what I am referring to if needed? May just do it anyway, been a while since I made a video:stirthepot:). After experiencing exactly what you are talking about (not fun) I can honestly say that type of tread design is not for me. Another something that sounds crazy too probably but I also experienced with the front Venom after worn some what Vaz is talking concerning riding thru tar snakes. The new Shinko handled those snakes a LOT better = definitely a major improvement. Never owned a 2nd Gen so no idea if Shinko makes matching front n rear tires for them - perhaps Vaz or one of the other site guru's can answer that.. I do know that if I were you, I would pick out a set of tires that match in brand and that have continuous tread pattern all the way around. Either have em balanced once mounted or have the installer slip in some tire beads.. I think you will be 100% amazed at the ride improvement!!

Edited October 14, 2017 by cowpuc

[vzuden]

Take look at the date code on your tires. If they are 5 years or older they need to be replaced and that should make your decision easier.

 

i had an Avon Venom once but on the rear so if it were to have any negative impact on handling I probably didn’t feel it. I had a flat on a trip so I was at the mercy of the closest dealer and it was all they had in stock. That tire served me well and I replaced it at 20,000 miles. Other than that one, all others are E3’s. By the way,

Jake Wilson usually has the best price with fast service.

[videoarizona]

>

 

 

Now that wobble is very interesting. The clue is when you changed your position on the bike and the scoot straightened right up. There are numerous videos on you tube about bike oscillation. Older British films showing that happening. But these newer bikes are not as [/color]susceptible as the older ones. By changing your riding position, you changed the suspension geometry enough to stop the wobble. By instinct, you did the right thing.

 

Check the rear bushings on the swing arm. If these are dry or worn, you can have this issue. I would also now confirm both wheels bearings are greased and in good shape as well as the steering head bearings are not loose. I'm going to recommend you do these things anyway, just to establish a service baseline. There are numerous posts here that describe how to do these things, and for the most part you can use both 1st gen and 2nd gen posts as the bikes are basically the same in terms of how they are put together. There are differences, but I've learned things in 1st gen posts that I applied to my 2nd gen too! Since I have one of each, it's a good knowledge base for me to search through both.

 

As far as when you put the air pressure back up to normal on the front and the issue got worse, that is indicative of the tire problem. Avon's are good tires. Most here have had good results with them. But since you are running two different tread patterns, all bets are off. Probably a new set of tires is another good idea for you to consider. Again, set a service baseline for yourself.

 

You really will like these bikes once you get yours sorted out. Hang in there.

 

Oh.....when you are searching and reading, make sure you look at the older posts "recommended" below at the bottom of the post page. Sometimes you can follow a series of posts right to where you want to go. The software this site runs on is pretty darn good!