POLL #2! Newly released V-4 Yamaha Venture! Would you pre-order/purchase this year?

[cowpuc]

As for the piston, your argument was the laws of physics did not allow a piston and rod the size of the big V-twin to change direction moving back and forth. the engine configuration or cooling method has zero bearing on the forces of moving the piston and then stopping it to reverse direction. I was simply giving examples of other applications where even bigger and heavier pistons can move even faster and still have no problem changing directions. While the forces are insignificant the starting and stopping of the piston is not something that happens suddenly. the speed of the piston starting at TDC will continuously accelerate for 90° of crank rotation, at that point the speed of the piston is maxed out and it will then begin to gradually decelerate back to 0 over the next 90° of crank rotation. You are trying to bring in other variables that I did not discuss. EVERYTHING in engineering is a compilation of compromises to achieve an end result.

 

 

 

 

 

Some of this is where perception and physics diverge.

 

Her is a quote from the ebay link you gave

 

 

Adding rotating mass to the engine will not change the peak horse power at all. It will significantly change the time it takes to accelerate to max RPM. The time delay is what is perceived as a reduction of horse power when it in fact is just making the horse power come in more slowly and thus be more manageable by someone that has not yet learned to bring the power on slowly.

The same is true at the other end, the extra inertia of the spinning weight will help you launch out of the gate.

In the case of the big V-twin, the extra mass spinning with the crankshaft will help to smooth out the power pulses for a smoother power delivery to the rear wheel.

 

Well,, I aint no engineer and actually,, just barely a back yard mechanic but have been actively involved in riding high horse, high torque scoots for many years and have noticed (at least what it "feels" like to me) that any time you add anything to the drive train that take umphhh to make it move you loose HP/Torque.. I have always theorized that when it comes to work being applied (just moving a bike forward under its own power = work) there is nothing free = every work cost in horsepower or torque.. You use the motor to spin a balance shaft you are using a certain percentage of available horse power, you use horsepower or torque to move added weight on a flywheel = it cost,, nothings free, the power you used that would have been available for another application = like maybe making the taillight on a v-4 disappear just a little slower is no longer there as it was used for another application.. Another theory of my pea brain is one I call Horsepower to weight raitio = that being that the exactly the same horsepower or torque available for matching bikes only add 100 pound of weight on one of those bikes = the heavier bike will be slower because its available horsepower is being spent to pull the xtra weight = nothings free.. BUT,, I got no book learnin to prove my theories, only the feel of the seat of the pants..

 

 

 

And concerning the mass of the piston changing direction.. There are, and have been for years, companies that produce forged pistons to be used instead of stock - cheaper cast pistons to mitigate the tendency of grenading as the mass changes direction = exactly what I am speaking of.. They do the same thing with rods and cranks.. All kinds of metalurgy studies have been done and, I personally have experienced a HUGE tendency for these parts to be stronger.. Another thing that is commonly done in performance market is the balancing of parts.. Also blue printing of motors to get the tolerances as close to perfect as possible = time consuming but = as I mentioned in comparing water cooled to air = tighter tolerances and being able to hold them are necessary when chasing performance..

Edited September 21, 2017 by cowpuc

[WildBill1]

My biggest worry is that a 2nd gen might just be able to pass this new V-twin, or worse yet a genuine Harley might even give it a run for its money. That would be down rite embarrassing. I am betting that a 1st gen has nothing to worry about from the new V-twin kid on the block.

 

Per Yamaha, I understand hunting season starts in December 2017 in my neck of the woods......

[camos]

It is actually simpler than that - dont have to picket for V-4's,, just a name change to something like "Stratotourer" would have solved everything from my perspective.. That alone would have solved the whole debate,, well,, except for the "turning the touring world upside down" debate maybe but that debate would have been totally subjective until we see whether or not rider preference for air cooled v-twins actually produced the sales to show that indeed = Mom Yam was successful in doing so..

 

WHAT A BLAST :witch_brew::witch_brew::witch_brew::witch_brew::witch_brew: Dear Lord,, please forgive me for my ways.. Puc

Nailed it once again Puc, twice in one paragraph.

[venturesome]

It wasn't the engineering department that designed the v-twin Venture.

 

It was the finance department and the marketing department!

 

Give them a year and I'll bet they start looking at hanging some saddlebags and a plush seat on the V-Max. (and maybe a cassette deck)

[Drews]

Yes cassette deck

[sydem]

Dear Mr. Cowpuc and Mr. Flyinfool, thank you for the discussion in this thread and the two sides of the argument, I find it VERY interesting and informative. This thread goes to show that a difference of opinion can be discussed without getting ugly.

[WildBill1]

:amen:Good discussion finished off a beer and a bag of popcorn reading this thread.

[Drews]

Are the hotdogs for 2018 going to be easer to handle faster to eat to hot to handle

[Flyinfool]

Well,, I aint no engineer and actually,, just barely a back yard mechanic but have been actively involved in riding high horse, high torque scoots for many years and have noticed (at least what it "feels" like to me) that any time you add anything to the drive train that take umphhh to make it move you loose HP/Torque.. I have always theorized that when it comes to work being applied (just moving a bike forward under its own power = work) there is nothing free = every work cost in horsepower or torque.. You use the motor to spin a balance shaft you are using a certain percentage of available horse power, you use horsepower or torque to move added weight on a flywheel = it cost,, nothings free, the power you used that would have been available for another application = like maybe making the taillight on a v-4 disappear just a little slower is no longer there as it was used for another application.. Another theory of my pea brain is one I call Horsepower to weight raitio = that being that the exactly the same horsepower or torque available for matching bikes only add 100 pound of weight on one of those bikes = the heavier bike will be slower because its available horsepower is being spent to pull the xtra weight = nothings free.. BUT,, I got no book learnin to prove my theories, only the feel of the seat of the pants..

 

Puc Don't sell your self short, you know more about engines than the vast majority of people.

You are almost there again, there is no free lunch (unless it is a meat&greet for hotdogs:)) if you add anything there is a cost, It is just that the seat of your pants is not giving you the whole story. You do loose a tiny fraction of a HP due to the friction of the weight moving thru air and oil, it would be tough to measure it let alone feel it. WHat you do get is that the flywheel weight will shift the torque curve a fair amount, does not change the peak torque but it moves the RPM where it happens and that is what you are feeling in the seat of your pants. (unless you just at to many tacos, then you might be feelig other stuff in the seat of your pants) You are also correct that adding 100 lbs will reduce the top speed because you are doing more work, but that goes right back to that stupid formula where HP is moving a specific weight a specific distance in a specific time, you just increased the weight so the speed must come down which will increase the time, but the actual HP never changed.

 

And concerning the mass of the piston changing direction.. There are, and have been for years, companies that produce forged pistons to be used instead of stock - cheaper cast pistons to mitigate the tendency of grenading as the mass changes direction = exactly what I am speaking of.. They do the same thing with rods and cranks.. All kinds of metalurgy studies have been done and, I personally have experienced a HUGE tendency for these parts to be stronger.. Another thing that is commonly done in performance market is the balancing of parts.. Also blue printing of motors to get the tolerances as close to perfect as possible = time consuming but = as I mentioned in comparing water cooled to air = tighter tolerances and being able to hold them are necessary when chasing performance..

 

There was a time a few years back where it was all the rage to make pistons out of steel, because with steel the walls could be a lot thinner and you could actually end up with a stronger and lighter piston. But the cost of making forged steel pistons was crazy expensive and if you ever had a case where the skirt managed to touch a cast iron wall, an aluminum piston will scuff but a steel piston takes out the cylinder wall. So that never got popular. I wonder if with newer technology if this could be revisited.

 

With newer technology rotating parts come from mass production balanced a LOT better than back in the day, same hold true for blueprinting, modern manufacturing can hold the tolerances on production parts that you used to get from blueprinting an engine.

 

 

I think you and I really need to spend some time around a campfire with a mountain of dogs and fixins for s'mores.......

[cowpuc]

Dear Mr. Cowpuc and Mr. Flyinfool, thank you for the discussion in this thread and the two sides of the argument, I find it VERY interesting and informative. This thread goes to show that a difference of opinion can be discussed without getting ugly.

 

INDEED and right back at cha Syd!! Your welcome and thanks for following along!! Good point about the getting ugly part as there was only one ugly one in that whole conversation and it sure wasnt me,, I'm the good lookin one who always wins the huggin contest when there is a VR Rally that women show up to:256: = !!

 

Puc Don't sell your self short, you know more about engines than the vast majority of people.

You are almost there again, there is no free lunch (unless it is a meat&greet for hotdogs:)) if you add anything there is a cost, It is just that the seat of your pants is not giving you the whole story. You do loose a tiny fraction of a HP due to the friction of the weight moving thru air and oil, it would be tough to measure it let alone feel it. WHat you do get is that the flywheel weight will shift the torque curve a fair amount, does not change the peak torque but it moves the RPM where it happens and that is what you are feeling in the seat of your pants. (unless you just at to many tacos, then you might be feelig other stuff in the seat of your pants) You are also correct that adding 100 lbs will reduce the top speed because you are doing more work, but that goes right back to that stupid formula where HP is moving a specific weight a specific distance in a specific time, you just increased the weight so the speed must come down which will increase the time, but the actual HP never changed.

 

 

 

There was a time a few years back where it was all the rage to make pistons out of steel, because with steel the walls could be a lot thinner and you could actually end up with a stronger and lighter piston. But the cost of making forged steel pistons was crazy expensive and if you ever had a case where the skirt managed to touch a cast iron wall, an aluminum piston will scuff but a steel piston takes out the cylinder wall. So that never got popular. I wonder if with newer technology if this could be revisited.

 

With newer technology rotating parts come from mass production balanced a LOT better than back in the day, same hold true for blueprinting, modern manufacturing can hold the tolerances on production parts that you used to get from blueprinting an engine.

 

 

I think you and I really need to spend some time around a campfire with a mountain of dogs and fixins for s'mores.......

 

CAMP FIRES, HOT DOGS, S'MORES,, oh no,,,,, Camp Fires, Hot Dogs, S'Mores,, oh my,,,,,,,,, we're off to see that White Washer, the Wonderful Wisconsin Wiz,, we hear his blood is cold like ice no matter what season it is..

 

Nothing,, shy of nothin would make me more than doing exactly that Fool!! We gotta get the likes of BigLenny involved too though cause he and I still have an unsettled debate over this new Venture that, because of unforeseen obstacles we had to cease.. A genuine foot warmin, hot dog toasting, s'more eating extravaganza would solve a lot of questions I am sure.. Matter of fact,, and again - this is just another one of my flawed character theories = I think if there were more hot dog cook outs with folks feet propped up debating the issues of the day that there would be less and more in the world.. Hot Dogs for everyone - that's what I always say!!!

 

**** Watch @stanG right at .11!! I never laughed so hard in my life!! LOL = what a riot!!

Edited September 23, 2017 by cowpuc