Yamaha fires back on why they didn't use the vmax v4 engine

[cowpuc]

A short performance review, new vrs old...

New 113 inch Vtwin = 1st gear rev limit = 30ish MPH, 2nd gear rev limit = 45ish MPH, 3rd rev limit = 60ish MPH - test done 2 up with empty bags.

Old 74 inch V-4 = 1st gear red line = 50ish, 2nd gear redline = 70ish, 3rd gear red line = 90 ish.. Test done 2 up with fully loaded for travel.

Hope these two comparo' vids help in providing some kind of info...

 

 

[cowpuc]

Yamaha would not have to be tackling this if they had not made the idiotic decision to call the Yamaharley a Venture. It's not and never will be a Venture but it is a pretty nice bike on its own merit. Venture riders would have been disappointed that Yamaha came out with a new touring bike and did not produce a 3rd Gen but we would likely get over it........eventually.

 

EXACTLY- NO TRUER WORDS HAVE EVER BEEN SPOKEN!! That, along with, IMHO, stating they were going to turn the touring world upside down with it - an act of tugging on the heart strings of all the actual remaining touring riders out there (not just Venture riders but also Goldwing and Beemer riders were anxiously waiting to see this expectedly superior performer to come to be).. Its happened before = short story..

Back in 72 I was heavy into Semi Pro MX. Racing heavily modded Yamaha's and doing fairly well with them.. The guy who owned the Honda Shop I was working at (Honda had NOTHING to compete on the track with at the time) came to me and filled me in on the new CR250M Elsinore being released to the dealers in January of 73.. Made a few calls,, did some fanagling and ended up with the 1st one in Michigan early Feb of 73.. IT ROCKED = HONDA CHANGED MX HISTORY WITH THAT BIKE = SHOULDA SEEN THE HUGELY ADVANCED PORTING = SHOULDA SEEN THE FLYWHEELESS POINTS IGNITION SET UP = Honda really truely did turn the dirt world upside down.. I wore out the 73 in one year of racing it and bought another in 74!!

Then, 2 years later, the same boss in the Honda Shop came to me,, KNOWING I was also using my Elsie's for woods racing (Enduro and Hare Scrambling) and announced Honda was doing it again - that they were using the same Technology in 3 new woods bikes - the MT250, 175 and 125 Elsinores.. What the heck I figured,, why not,, Honda Elsinore had PROVEN itself - I ordered a brand new 175 Elsinore.. Same scenario - 1st in Michigan BUT - this time - 1st in Michigan to find out I had been HAD!! I wont go into detail but will tell ya - there was NOTHING "Elsinore" about these new bikes.. Old school Piston Port induction (YUCK), NO reed valve (YUCK), cheap Elsinore look alike suspention.. Sold the fake Elsinore 3 weeks after it showed it face - absolutely NOT an Elsinore.. Along about that time is when I went back to Yamaha and then on two Kawasaki when they came out with the KIPS Valve on the Exhaust (something very similar to the EXUP on my R1)..

[CaseyJ955]

When I press play it just brings me to a vid list, maybe just mine but I cant play it.

 

The info is good, thank you.

 

I have to say I really like the dash.

[cowpuc]

When I press play it just brings me to a vid list, maybe just mine but I cant play it.

 

The info is good, thank you.

 

I have to say I really like the dash.

 

Both of them Case or just one? They both play fine on my end but maybe thats cause I posted the vids on You Tube,, I will retry here:

1ST the new one: I double checked its settings,, it is set for "public" use.. I will try posting it a couple ways here:

Please let me know if either or neither of these work...

 

 

[CaseyJ955]

Thanks for trying to repost, I'm guessing something is wrong with my phone, I tried in a different browser and it started and copped an error. Ill sure watch it when I get home on the 31st, but guessing there is nothing wrong with how you posted it. We'll see if anyone else has trouble. Still looking forward to seeing it.

[Du-Rron]

Alright... one last time and then I really will shut up about this.

 

I'm really 100% behind Yamaha. I wanted them to do well with their new bike. I was hoping that it would blow everything else off the planet and surely it would have the V4. After all, the V4 has been Yamaha's "Signature" engine on-and-off, for better than 30 years now. It is about the "Signature" engine that the motorcycle manufacturer decides to use in their flagship touring bike that I now feel shortchanged by Yamaha. I felt sure that Yamaha had the market cornered on the big lump V4 current Vmax engine and I was disappointed that they decided not to use any form of it in their new tour bike.

 

Relating to a "Signature" engine, if I said a flat-six, you would know I was talking about Honda. Harley is known for their V-Twins. BMW has their inline (how many cylinders does that thing have nowadays 10..12..?), Triumph has the Triple, and Yamaha has been known for the V4.

 

However, now the Yamaha "Signature" Hallmark drivetrain is an Air-Cooled, Half Mechanical Half Hydraulic valve, belt drive, push rod v-twin. I'm having a hard time trying to make myself like this new beast.

 

There is probably not a lot of money to be made in exotic engines like the V4. Honda has the "traditional" V4 in the VFR1200 which is slated to be short lived. Honda's ST is gone and the CTX1300 probably won't be coming back. There is talk of no more Yamaha Vmax. This is a shame. I am sorry to see the V4 go and I was hoping its proper execution in a large caliber tour bike would let it remain in production as Yamaha's "Signature" Hallmark engine.

[cowpuc]

Alright... one last time and then I really will shut up about this.

 

I'm really 100% behind Yamaha. I wanted them to do well with their new bike. I was hoping that it would blow everything else off the planet and surely it would have the V4. After all, the V4 has been Yamaha's "Signature" engine on-and-off, for better than 30 years now. It is about the "Signature" engine that the motorcycle manufacturer decides to use in their flagship touring bike that I now feel shortchanged by Yamaha. I felt sure that Yamaha had the market cornered on the big lump V4 current Vmax engine and I was disappointed that they decided not to use any form of it in their new tour bike.

 

Relating to a "Signature" engine, if I said a flat-six, you would know I was talking about Honda. Harley is known for their V-Twins. BMW has their inline (how many cylinders does that thing have nowadays 10..12..?), Triumph has the Triple, and Yamaha has been known for the V4.

 

However, now the Yamaha "Signature" Hallmark drivetrain is an Air-Cooled, Half Mechanical Half Hydraulic valve, belt drive, push rod v-twin. I'm having a hard time trying to make myself like this new beast.

 

There is probably not a lot of money to be made in exotic engines like the V4. Honda has the "traditional" V4 in the VFR1200 which is slated to be short lived. Honda's ST is gone and the CTX1300 probably won't be coming back. There is talk of no more Yamaha Vmax. This is a shame. I am sorry to see the V4 go and I was hoping its proper execution in a large caliber tour bike would let it remain in production as Yamaha's "Signature" Hallmark engine.

 

HEAR HEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!:clap2:

 

OHHH NOOO,, SAY IT AINT SOOOOO... PLEASE Duey,,, PLEASE dont shut up about it... You and I and a few others are alone in this,, we NEED to be able to share in your well written, easy to follow thoughts and passion about motorcycling (especially the Yam V-4). Personally,, I am not letting it die. These Yamaha V-4's have stood by me thick and thin, have carried my carcass thru some of the nastiest motorcycling adventures possible with a beloved family member in tow and have waved bye bye to 90% of the bike that they have shared the road with in the process - I for one aint shuttin up and spittin on my V-4's history and I really wish you wouldnt either.. We may be a dieing breed brother but we dont have to accept it without a fight

 

I said it at the unveiling when I knew us Yam V-4 lovers had been sold out,, and I said it again when we test rode em = ohhhh poop... I am gonna keep saying it cause I just cant get my arms around what coulda/shoulda been:Bunny2:

[cowpuc]

Thanks for trying to repost, I'm guessing something is wrong with my phone, I tried in a different browser and it started and copped an error. Ill sure watch it when I get home on the 31st, but guessing there is nothing wrong with how you posted it. We'll see if anyone else has trouble. Still looking forward to seeing it.

 

Drive safe out there Casey,, lookin forward to your thoughts on the comparison..

Something just occurred to me..

I love bikes,, all bikes,, for that cause I LOVE surfing the net and following the "news" thereby of bikes coming and going.. Back when HD brought out the new Walkee 8 I was intriqued with the amount of internet traffic surrounding that motor.. I recall one site I had been on that within a couple short days, had over 50 PAGES of responses in ONE thread concerning the motor = good and bad responses = YES, but still = 55 pages?????

Compare that to the interest one see's on a site like ours about all this.. I know,, lots of the old time followers of the machine and the life style have moved on to other interest but the fact is - it doesnt take a mental heavy weight to see the obvious that the interest (and,, even more so to a corporation like Star Motorcycles, the MONEY) lies with HD air cooled V-Twin motorcycles at this time and one cant blame outsiders like Mom Yam or even Polaris for that matter, for trying to get a little of that pie..

Sorry for the ramblins,,, got side tracked...

[CaseyJ955]

Drive safe out there Casey,, lookin forward to your thoughts on the comparison..

Something just occurred to me..

I love bikes,, all bikes,, for that cause I LOVE surfing the net and following the "news" thereby of bikes coming and going.. Back when HD brought out the new Walkee 8 I was intriqued with the amount of internet traffic surrounding that motor.. I recall one site I had been on that within a couple short days, had over 50 PAGES of responses in ONE thread concerning the motor = good and bad responses = YES, but still = 55 pages?????

Compare that to the interest one see's on a site like ours about all this.. I know,, lots of the old time followers of the machine and the life style have moved on to other interest but the fact is - it doesnt take a mental heavy weight to see the obvious that the interest (and,, even more so to a corporation like Star Motorcycles, the MONEY) lies with HD air cooled V-Twin motorcycles at this time and one cant blame outsiders like Mom Yam or even Polaris for that matter, for trying to get a little of that pie..

Sorry for the ramblins,,, got side tracked...

 

All good brutha. Not only do I not blame mfrs for chasing a slice of tbe pie, I like to see it. I have to say that I would have a lot more love for this bike if it were packaged and presented as a twin cruiser from the onset. Im not really dissapointed by this twin criuser, im good with that. I'm more put off by the absence of a 3rd gen Venture after being enticed with a 3rd gen Venture. Im looking forward to riding it with an open mind even though my riding style is not suited to a twin. I still like a car with a clutch and 2 doors so I'm a poor representations of who a motor company should be pandering too, I realize that. At any rate I'm really sorry I missed you while you were here and hope we catch up next time.

[cowpuc]

All good brutha. Not only do I not blame mfrs for chasing a slice of tbe pie, I like to see it. I have to say that I would have a lot more love for this bike if it were packaged and presented as a twin cruiser from the onset. Im not really dissapointed by this twin criuser, im good with that. I'm more put off by the absence of a 3rd gen Venture after being enticed with a 3rd gen Venture. Im looking forward to riding it with an open mind even though my riding style is not suited to a twin. I still like a car with a clutch and 2 doors so I'm a poor representations of who a motor company should be pandering too, I realize that. At any rate I'm really sorry I missed you while you were here and hope we catch up next time.

 

I hope you KNOW you and I are on EXACTLY the same page here!! Its not the bike = the new Yam is AWESOME IMHO and I totally agree - I LOVE to see more competition in the community - quite frankly - its really really good for HD to have to stretch more to keep hold of their market ...

It just should never have been marketed like it was,, it should have been marketed as a whole new breed, a real deal Roadliner Touring machine that was gonna shake up the HD world.. Fact is,, I think Mom Yam thought by placing the Venture name on it and spinning it as the bike that was gonna "turn the touring world upside down" - they probably thought they could bring in a couple oldies from that fairly small world and they didnt expect the back lash..

[bongobobny]

***SIGH***

 

Maybe we are all dinosaurs hanging out waiting to become extinct while the motorcycling clientele evolves into a techno world of loud V twins who would rather play video games on their bikes than actually enjoy the open road...

[snyper316]

Now you bring up video games... The generation buying bikes now got misrepresented on the baggers all them show or feel as if the bagger is a slow ads non fun bike. They get on the twins and there fun. Then you got the crotch rockets and those are super fast and so on. Just look at my favorite game of all time all the way back. Grand theft auto. I can't believe how many compliments I get on my bike and number one thing I hear is those suckers are fast and fun to ride and some will say they had a few..

 

Sent from my LG-K371 using Tapatalk

[cowpuc]

Now you bring up video games... The generation buying bikes now got misrepresented on the baggers all them show or feel as if the bagger is a slow ads non fun bike. They get on the twins and there fun. Then you got the crotch rockets and those are super fast and so on. Just look at my favorite game of all time all the way back. Grand theft auto. I can't believe how many compliments I get on my bike and number one thing I hear is those suckers are fast and fun to ride and some will say they had a few..

 

Sent from my LG-K371 using Tapatalk

 

Many many years ago (sure hope my kids dont read that), when my kids were just lil varmints - way to young for bikin, Tip n I dropped em all into our 73 Sightseer motorhome and headed out to explore Disney World/Florida and Disney Land/California.. We got goofing off at Epcot Center where the kids got involved in the then upcoming Virtual Reality machines.. While watching one of my girls "hang glide" over seas and land I remember telling my wife that all things were about to change..

Fact is,, there is a whole new world of touring, flying, racing, driving out there now - a world where you can crash hard on a bike or in a car and NO ONE gets hurt.. A world where,, with a little practice - a person can get get everything that most of us geezers had to work very hard to obtain (material items) for the price of a modern day video game...

[snyper316]

Many many years ago (sure hope my kids dont read that), when my kids were just lil varmints - way to young for bikin, Tip n I dropped em all into our 73 Sightseer motorhome and headed out to explore Disney World/Florida and Disney Land/California.. We got goofing off at Epcot Center where the kids got involved in the then upcoming Virtual Reality machines.. While watching one of my girls "hang glide" over seas and land I remember telling my wife that all things were about to change..

Fact is,, there is a whole new world of touring, flying, racing, driving out there now - a world where you can crash hard on a bike or in a car and NO ONE gets hurt.. A world where,, with a little practice - a person can get get everything that most of us geezers had to work very hard to obtain (material items) for the price of a modern day video game...

Yeap I'm a billionaire in grand theft auto 5..

Got it from races till they put caps on money you got outta winning... I still get on once in a while to spend money speaking of got a rare bike in warehouse.... Need to check my offers on it... [emoji23][emoji23] trying to get 120,000 or better

 

Sent from my LG-K371 using Tapatalk

[cowpuc]

and in this short vid Tip, Tweeksis and I do a torque pull to compare her little 74 inch V-4 heart against the new 113 inch Star Ventures massive torque.. The pull starts at 2 grand/35 MPH in top gear (5th) while fully loaded with her gear and riding two up. The fun begins at about 22 seconds in and she crosses the line of +70 at about 34 seconds... I did not get to do this on the new one at Sturgis as it was not the time or place (we were being carefully watched) but, given time I will probably get to do so, with recording for accuracy, if/when the new ones show up in our area for testing.. If anyone has a chance to do this test with one of them before I do I would be really interested in the results = be really interesting to see what REAL torque can do compared to the anemic torque of our little V-4's..

[snyper316]

and in this short vid Tip, Tweeksis and I do a torque pull to compare her little 74 inch V-4 heart against the new 113 inch Star Ventures massive torque.. The pull starts at 2 grand/35 MPH in top gear (5th) while fully loaded with her gear and riding two up. The fun begins at about 22 seconds in and she crosses the line of +70 at about 34 seconds... I did not get to do this on the new one at Sturgis as it was not the time or place (we were being carefully watched) but, given time I will probably get to do so, with recording for accuracy, if/when the new ones show up in our area for testing.. If anyone has a chance to do this test with one of them before I do I would be really interested in the results = be really interesting to see what REAL torque can do compared to the anemic torque of our little V-4's..

You do realize that this isn't fair I think it be more fair comparing second gen... Just a thought.[emoji23] [emoji23]

 

Sent from my LG-K371 using Tapatalk

[cowpuc]

You do realize that this isn't fair I think it be more fair comparing second gen... Just a thought.[emoji23] [emoji23]

 

Sent from my LG-K371 using Tapatalk

 

Fair schmare - Mom Yam should have thought that before she went and named that thing a Venture if she didnt want it compared to a Venture... Should of named it a Stratolounger or something IMHO... Besides,, the 2nd Gen isnt a fixed fairing touring bike like the new one - trying to stay apples for apples as much as possible...

[videoarizona]

22 seconds to get up to 5K rpm where she is starting to really pull. I subtracted the video time.

 

That was interesting. Thanks for the video...

[cowpuc]

22 seconds to get up to 5K rpm where she is starting to really pull. I subtracted the video time.

 

That was interesting. Thanks for the video...

 

I had a hunch that you of all people would be intriqued with what was going on in that vid.. Personally I am always amazed as how healthy the little 1200cc 74 inch v-4 truly is in its honest torque delivery (saying that after many years of sitting on the back of one with NO second gear and watching it lovingly drag 2 of us and GOBS of gear up mountains while flying by other machines staring at us wondering what the heck that was that just chugged by em)- one of these days ,, maybe sooner than later if someone actually buys one of the new ones, we will get to see the other half of the real world comparison between the two Yamaha Ventures - new against old, machino' to machino'..

Ya know what,, while out CTFW this past summer and being able to just occasionally read here on the forum I thought I remember reading that one of our members, @VentureFar , may be coming into a chance to have one of these new ones around to play with??? If I read what I think I read and wasnt having some form of Prairie hallucinations while out CTFW,,, this could get very very interesting...

[snyper316]

Ok so I am on facebook, and unless many of you have different identitys there i have read thru alot of comments, people reminiscing about how they got hooked. Alot even talking about how the HD has needed most the maintenance.... but thats neither here nor there, alot of people do not like the new bike, because they feel it is trying to be something it is not.... they should have stayed true to there roots. My Next Bike will be a Vmax...

[CaseyJ955]

Ok so I am on facebook, and unless many of you have different identitys there i have read thru alot of comments, people reminiscing about how they got hooked. Alot even talking about how the HD has needed most the maintenance.... but thats neither here nor there, alot of people do not like the new bike, because they feel it is trying to be something it is not.... they should have stayed true to there roots. My Next Bike will be a Vmax...

 

This is Maxine, shes a 99 VMX1200. This machine reminds me of how completely awesome the Yamaha V4 really is. You will never get more grin for the buck. Her engine is stock other than a Kerker 4-2-1, COPs, Morleys Muscle intake/jet kit and carefully tuned. FUN FUN FUN. Once you hit 6k the world gets blurry and you need to. Im into it for about $4500 including my home paint job, custom seat and rack/backrest. Shes a monster and if your thinking it, go for it. The Gen2 is even more nuts but your looking at $10k used, I have a friend in Fargo with a very sweet gen2 for sale now. Either way its a serious kick in the pants for a modest investment.

 

It was this bike that brought me to the Venture, all about that amazing engine. Oh, the sound, sheeesh, its musical! Wifey likes to ride on this more than the Venture, she said its the sound.

[snyper316]

This is Maxine, shes a 99 VMX1200. This machine reminds me of how completely awesome the Yamaha V4 really is. You will never get more grin for the buck. Her engine is stock other than a Kerker 4-2-1, COPs, Morleys Muscle intake/jet kit and carefully tuned. FUN FUN FUN. Once you hit 6k the world gets blurry and you need to. Im into it for about $4500 including my home paint job, custom seat and rack/backrest. Shes a monster and if your thinking it, go for it. The Gen2 is even more nuts but your looking at $10k used, I have a friend in Fargo with a very sweet gen2 for sale now. Either way its a serious kick in the pants for a modest investment.

 

It was this bike that brought me to the Venture, all about that amazing engine. Oh, the sound, sheeesh, its musical! Wifey likes to ride on this more than the Venture, she said its the sound.

I had one next time at stoplight I love the tuned grumble of that vmax don't know if it was stock exhaust but wow... I fell in love with that sound. Kinda bassy grumble that you feel as well as hear.

 

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[CaseyJ955]

I had one next time at stoplight I love the tuned grumble of that vmax don't know if it was stock exhaust but wow... I fell in love with that sound. Kinda bassy grumble that you feel as well as hear.

 

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Yup, the bigger the can the deeper the note. There are two variants of baffle for this system and I have the smaller one. Its pretty loud but I dont want it to be obnoxious. It shreaks like a mofo between 6k and 10k and is a tad louder than I would choose, but its so musical. There are systems out there that are ear splitting, and many of those actually hurt performance.

 

You can buy faster bikes now but the Vmax is iconic, recognized by anyone that has been into bikes for awhile. Ive wanted one since 85 and it took me this long. Lots of tude' but not HD sort of tude', its far more sinister than that. Good times my friend!

[cowpuc]

,, I miss Crud,,,,, he's no Maggie by any stretch but he definitely could easily put a on this ol varmints face.. LONG LIVE THE MIGHTY V-MAX!!!!!

 

 

 

 

[MikeWa]

I said it before and I will say it again. Fabricating excuses for poor product choices won't cut it. So as I have said on another thread. If Yamaha wants to take customer base from Harley they still have a long ways to go. They need a much larger dealer network. They need to give service priority to transit riders with problems on the road. They need to have parts and service available nation wide and beyond. There are also many intangibles with Harley ownership. It is more than just 'want to be'. So I question the wisdom of throwing away your customer base to chase one you don't have the resources to win. So why not save all that heart ache and build something your current customer base wants and has been looking forward to for years.

 

Mike