Yamaha fires back on why they didn't use the vmax v4 engine

[Oldodge]

I have read a lot about the new Venture. Some good, some bad. I will throw this out there as my .02 cents. So far, from what I see, I like it. I like the style, forgive me, but I like the twin cylinder engine too. I like twin cylinder engines, boxers, v-twins, vertical twins, you name it, I like it. But I own a V-four, why? Price, Yamaha couldn't sell the 2nd Gen in my area for anywhere near full MSRP and they were greatly discounted when I bought my 2013 new. I looked at new 2011 and 2012 Venture's as left overs at the same time. My first choice was a Victory Vision, but that damn price on a 2nd Gen, with a five year, unlimited mileage, warranty was too good to ignore, and it was a Yamaha, and I have always liked my Yammies. One test drive on a 2nd Gen and I was hooked, smooth, powerful, comfortable and affordable. It is a big heavy motorcycle, I wanted a big heavy motorcycle. If weight were a driving issue I wouldn't buy any full sized touring bike. I am not disappointed by the new Venture at all. I am actually excited about it, but I won't buy one, not if I have to pay anywhere near MSRP anyway. There are some idiosyncrasies about my second gen that drive me nuts, there have been some on every bike I have ever owned. No one machine gives me everything I want in a perfect package. I came to that conclusion years ago. When the 1st gen was new it didn't seem to sell well around here either, but I wanted one, just couldn't afford it, even at greatly reduced prices. Why haven't Ventures sold well here? I think it is because when you start asking that kind of money for a motorcycle, the casual rider thinks "premium brands" like Harley, Indian, BMW, etc are now compatible price ways, so I may as well impress my buddies with one of them. The Gold Wing is a bit of an anomaly due to its widespread reputation as the "best touring bike" on the market. Many have asked me, why not a Wing if you want a tourer? Simple, not my style and too expensive. knowing what I know now, 30K miles later, would I buy another second gen? Probably not now, because I would be considering buying the third gen if a test ride proved it to be what I think it is, and the price were deeply discounted. Not a knock on the second gen at all, great bike, but time marches on, change is inevitable, and I have "been there, done that". I hope Star/Yamaha sell the new Venture like ice on a hot day, but I think in reality they will get about the same market share as the older Venture's, no fault of the bike, mainly due to brand loyalty and the premium price for a perceived standard brand. Long winded .02 cents, but I like getting my money's worth.:cool:

[BlueSky]

Yeah, many of us are "older" and we think hard before we spend that kind of money on a bike or anything else. I'm retired and even though I can afford a new truck or car, I keep my 15 yr old truck and my 12 yr old car. Same with the bike. I just can't rationalize spending that much money on a new bike. I'm not that emotional about it. I would like to ride a BMW R1200RT and a BMW 1600GTL. I might get emotional about them. I was impressed by the 2006 Wing I test rode a few years ago. The BMW R bike flat twin and the 90 degree v-twin such as in the V-strom are the only twins I could see myself buying because they are made to rev and make hp. The straight six is the best dynamically balanced of all engine designs.

[Du-Rron]

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/how-europes-changing-emissions-laws-will-change-motorcycling

 

MotorcycleEmissions.pdf

 

The Gen2 Venture has horrible emissions due to non-fuel injected and was sold as a Tier 3 motorcycle just in North America for its last few years of production. Prior to 2005 I bet they were sold everywhere.

 

The Gen3 Venture without a water-cooled engine has no hope of making Euro4 standards... so looks like it will be a North American bike ...only... right from the get go. (Please somebody... get a picture of the emission label next time you are test-driving a new Venture)

 

I could probably get over a lot of things to talk myself into buying a new Venture. However, no Water-Cooling on the new Venture ends all conversation for me and makes it a no-go deal.

[BlueSky]

Makes you wonder what future water cooling for all bikes to meet emissions controls will do to the Harleys. The Gen2 Venture probably would have sold much better if it had fuel injection and a few more updates, maybe even a newer stereo. But, Yamaha refused to spend any design money on it and let it die. The Goldwing got FI in 2001! 2013 and the Venture still has carbs! Emission controls was what got rid of air cooled autos. A newly designed touring motorcycle with an air cooled engine was extremely short sighted IMHO. I still have a hard time believing it.

[CaseyJ955]

Yeah, many of us are "older" and we think hard before we spend that kind of money on a bike or anything else. I'm retired and even though I can afford a new truck or car, I keep my 15 yr old truck and my 12 yr old car. Same with the bike. I just can't rationalize spending that much money on a new bike. I'm not that emotional about it. I would like to ride a BMW R1200RT and a BMW 1600GTL. I might get emotional about them. I was impressed by the 2006 Wing I test rode a few years ago. The BMW R bike flat twin and the 90 degree v-twin such as in the V-strom are the only twins I could see myself buying because they are made to rev and make hp. The straight six is the best dynamically balanced of all engine designs.

 

I get that. I just had quite a sit down with a calculator about spending the bucks. Im just getting to the place where earning potential is slipping and a medical retirement may be within another 5-10 years if not sooner. Since the V3 turned out to be a crushing disappointment to those of us that were looking for something different I was on the fence about a Trophy. At this point I have decided to pass on buying any new (or used) bike and instead replace my 21yr old Lexus, not because it needs it but because its a rear wheel drive and it sits all winter. It will be sold and replaced with a 10 yr old TDI Jetta while I can still legitimately and honestly consider it a business expense. After all I only just got my 1st gen Venture and it could conceivably last many more years.

 

I also agree on the BMW boxer. I say air cooled twin as a blanket statement but the boxer is an excellent mill and exception to the issues plaguing the narrow angle air cooled twins. BMW knows how to do engines, thats why they have spammed the inline 6 for so many years. I have loved them in the 3 series cars and I was blown away to hear they narrowed one down enough to put into a K bike. If I ever buy a later bike it would almost have to be an inline 6, Boxer or Triple since the V4 is apparently off the table. By the time I'm ready for a new steed I'll bet the K1600 will be $6000 for a clean used one.

 

German bikes (and cars) are excellent but come with the increased cost of ownership and occasionally finicky behavior which is why I've gradually moved towards Japanese cars and bikes. Now it looks like I may be slowly moving back and budgeting accordingly. I have never stopped being fascinated by the K1600. BMW clearly has their finger on the pulse of the power touring market and riders like me. But just like the V3, its a whole lot of scratch to plunk down for a bike.

[cowpuc]

Yea,, as hard as I try not to be,,, I'm still pretty miffed too... That whole Sturgis thing was fun and all but I walked away from it with even more questions than I went with,,, wish I coulda tempt check em and all that... One of the things that I cant get out of my head has t do with a couple of the last real deal touring bikes out there,, The Wing, = the engine heat associated with the boxers/flat engies.. The Guzzi Air Heads stuck those jugs right out in front of your legs = talk about hot,,, but the early flat Wing motors (cant say much on the 1800's = never rode/owned one) got me even worse on feet and ankles - someday I will ride an 1800 and see if its the same - this design also held limitations for being able to stretch out for me... That said,, one of the things I REALLY wanted to test on this new one with my temp gauge was Stator Heat..

Something I have always loved about my 1st Gens and thought that Yam was gonna smack it out of the park with a new breed 1700cc Vmax Motored fixed fairing Venture was the idea of being able to have the engine entirely concealed within the confines of shrouding and air foil.. That said, one of the intrensic hot spot's that always got me as a rider of the 1st Gen was the Stator area on the left side of the scoot.. That area is directly forward of the riders footpeg/shift lever and,, in warmer tempts - would get hot enough that resting of the foot on the crashbar would almost be manditory if thinking about more than using the scoot for buzzing around town.. I also use that upper stator area A LOT for perching my foot on when doing longer then 12 hour days in the saddle and, in so doing,, have noticed many times in desert riding that stator cover its way to hot to rest even a covered foot on for any extended period... This new one, now having not one but 2 Alternator/Stator assemblies (one on each side) mounted just forward of the riders feet/legs really has me curious concerning heat management with this added heat source. Having experienced a fair amount of discomfort associate with the 1100, 1200 and 1500 Wings with heat production in that same basic area has me about it all...

More questions than answers I reckon...

[snyper316]

EXACTLY = at this point you can use ALL your focus on double checking what the other person is doing with the car while they are texting or talking on the phone.. Practice, practice practice,,, may just save your life,,,,, practice practice practice....

Get to LOVE practicing!!

 

I BLOW TINKERS HORN EVERYTIME I SEE SOMEONE ON A PHONE. And motion for them to hang up the phone....

[snyper316]

Yea,, as hard as I try not to be,,, I'm still pretty miffed too... That whole Sturgis thing was fun and all but I walked away from it with even more questions than I went with,,, wish I coulda tempt check em and all that... One of the things that I cant get out of my head has t do with a couple of the last real deal touring bikes out there,, The Wing, = the engine heat associated with the boxers/flat engies.. The Guzzi Air Heads stuck those jugs right out in front of your legs = talk about hot,,, but the early flat Wing motors (cant say much on the 1800's = never rode/owned one) got me even worse on feet and ankles - someday I will ride an 1800 and see if its the same - this design also held limitations for being able to stretch out for me... That said,, one of the things I REALLY wanted to test on this new one with my temp gauge was Stator Heat..

Something I have always loved about my 1st Gens and thought that Yam was gonna smack it out of the park with a new breed 1700cc Vmax Motored fixed fairing Venture was the idea of being able to have the engine entirely concealed within the confines of shrouding and air foil.. That said, one of the intrensic hot spot's that always got me as a rider of the 1st Gen was the Stator area on the left side of the scoot.. That area is directly forward of the riders footpeg/shift lever and,, in warmer tempts - would get hot enough that resting of the foot on the crashbar would almost be manditory if thinking about more than using the scoot for buzzing around town.. I also use that upper stator area A LOT for perching my foot on when doing longer then 12 hour days in the saddle and, in so doing,, have noticed many times in desert riding that stator cover its way to hot to rest even a covered foot on for any extended period... This new one, now having not one but 2 Alternator/Stator assemblies (one on each side) mounted just forward of the riders feet/legs really has me curious concerning heat management with this added heat source. Having experienced a fair amount of discomfort associate with the 1100, 1200 and 1500 Wings with heat production in that same basic area has me about it all...

More questions than answers I reckon...

 

 

I will ask a friend I think they have the 1800 trike. I know they ride all over but do stop and I think Russ doubles up his socks...

[DblTrbl]

I'm curious how many have rode this bike yet? I did, twice a gray one and a red one. Couldn't tell the difference.

 

I've had a Road Star, Stratoliner, RSTD and a RSV, and put probably 250K miles on them. (like most of us)

Yeah, these were 15-20 minute demo rides but we did get up to speed (75, 6th) and we had some good twists on the ride.

I really did enjoy the ride, I enjoyed the power it had, I enjoyed the control. I'm 5'8" and it fit fine without lowering.

Had too many gadgets to fool with in that short time, just wanted to enjoy the ride. The ride by wire would take some getting use to, not minutes.

 

I would say this had the power and handling of my Strat but the comfort of the Venture.

Ambient temp was perhaps 85 degrees and we did not sit in traffic, so I can't say how the heat would be when you get stuck in the heat. But I did not get noticeable heat of the motor.

One guy complained but then found out he had the seat heater on. Yep.

 

Will I buy one, not me, I got my two up GW trike, and this is too much bike and cost for my solo ride. (Actually, I'm buying another RSTD for that.)

But, if I dropped back 10 years, pre retirement,, probably would.

 

As for the rider in the new video, that is a friend, Vince Greva.

He is a primary in STAR Touring, a very likeable and honest guy. But, of course STAR folks are hoping this bike is a hit. As most of us should too. (I'm both)

Oh, and he is a retired California motor cop who teaches and develops motorcycle courses for training CHP's motor cops. So, a very qualified rider.

 

So, please catch a demo event and ride the bike,,, let us know what you think then too, especially then. I don't think I heard many discouraging words in Redwing.

I'll try to attach the demo list but if you got the video, you probably got the list.

I'm going to try to get to Cherokee, NC and ride it again.

 

Mike G in SC

 

Mike, didn't know that you knew Vinnie. He was our chapter pres for Inland Empire Chapt 109. I have had several thousand miles on the road riding with him. Outstanding fellow (for a cop..LOL).

[Brew]

Just heard that the new Ventures will be delay until December for some tooling issues, maybe they'll throw a V4 in there after all!!! Could only hope I suppose.

[CaseyJ955]

Just heard that the new Ventures will be delay until December for some tooling issues, maybe they'll throw a V4 in there after all!!! Could only hope I suppose.

 

I read something about retooling for the V4, which fit just fine as many of the forward thinking engineers knew it would come to this, but they were having trouble with plumbing for the turbo which will now sit behind the rear cyl in a ceramic downward vented doghouse instead of between them as originally designed. We should be able to get our 186hp/232ft lb 3rd gen Ventures well before Xmas.

[cowpuc]

I read something about retooling for the V4, which fit just fine as many of the forward thinking engineers knew it would come to this, but they were having trouble with plumbing for the turbo which will now sit behind the rear cyl in a ceramic downward vented doghouse instead of between them as originally designed. We should be able to get our 186hp/232ft lb 3rd gen Ventures well before Xmas.

 

OUTSTANDING!! Only this time Mom Yam is gonna have to bring it to my house in Michigan to prove she aint pulling no more jokes or playing no more game with all this.. Gotta remember Mom Yam,, the ol Pucster gots a new tuner on his pump now and cant handle practical jokes like he used to = that last one even made my tuner skip a beat or two..

So,, all that said,, this time,, instead of Tip, Tweeks and I heading for the East Coast for the unveiling and then later to the Sturgis Rally to see the V-Max motored Venture as outlined in post #9 found in this thread: http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?102280-Let-the-discussion-begin

because you really did listen to us Yamaha Venture riders like you said you did,,,,,,, you will need to bring it to my home in Michigan to prove you were only kidding by introducing the new air cooled V-Twin belt/pulley driven Star Stratoliner Tourer (NICE Strat by the way) as a Venture...

Tell ya what,, just to show no hard feelings about the whole misunderstanding,, I will leave the outside lights on for you and Tip will have fresh cookies baked for ya to munch on while we are outside demoing the scoot.. If its to our liking (probably gonna wanna stick er on the dyno and make sure those specs that Casey produced are rear wheel specs = thats very important = IMHO,, "turning the touring world upside down" means all the other touring bikes out there (like that new Beemer) will only be viewable in the mirrors and THAT only momentarily = kind of like these 1st Gen Ventures have done to all those V-Twins all those years..

[RandyR]

Puc, it sounds like you're not going to leave much wiggle-room for Mama-Yama this time around? I guess its a matter of once fooled.....

[cowpuc]

Puc, it sounds like you're not going to leave much wiggle-room for Mama-Yama this time around? I guess its a matter of once fooled.....

 

 

or Mom Yam,, put in another way,,,

 

[snyper316]

So the new bike is called illuder all they did was shorten windshield and take trunk off the venture.....

 

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