Yamaha fires back on why they didn't use the vmax v4 engine

[cowpuc]

I said it before and I will say it again. Fabricating excuses for poor product choices won't cut it. So as I have said on another thread. If Yamaha wants to take customer base from Harley they still have a long ways to go. They need a much larger dealer network. They need to give service priority to transit riders with problems on the road. They need to have parts and service available nation wide and beyond. There are also many intangibles with Harley ownership. It is more than just 'want to be'. So I question the wisdom of throwing away your customer base to chase one you don't have the resources to win. So why not save all that heart ache and build something your current customer base wants and has been looking forward to for years.

 

Mike

 

I am totally right there with ya Mike,,, makes no sense at all,,, just makes no sense,, unless,,, maybe it has something to do with actual Market size.. If "O" = the size of the market that HD own's 50% of and "O" ^{represents the size of the market that Honda, with its Goldwing has 50% control over and straight up potential for profitability is what Mom Yam was/is looking for then I can see why they may have seen more $$ potential chasing the HD market.. Fact is,, out in the real touring world,, things have really changed..}

^{Long story but Tip n I spent an over nighter with an Over The Road truck driver (owner/op) while out CTFW in Wyoming during the Sturgis Rally. This trucker was on his way to his home in Missouri with a Motor Home he had purchased in Montana - he noticed Tweeks grazing at a fuel station and walked over, got yakking with Tip and I and ended up inviting us to camp in his Motor Home for the rainy night - of course,, who could turn down such a thoughtful offer.. Anyway,, in discussing with him what we are/were all about - his comment of "I spend a LOT of time on the roads of America and gotta say - its a real shame but you folks are a dieing breed".. IMHO,, he nailed it!! Fact is,, the whole motorcycle "touring" idea has changed.. Not that we dont see a TON of HD Ultra Limited or Road Glides out there (HD's version of a "touring" bike IMHO) and a fair amount of Gold Wings and the like BUT - in almost 99% of the sightings - they are found in local traveling circumstances = even what the old timers may call "bar hopping" scenarios..}

^{If what I am saying holds any truth at all,, then possibly the need for an extensive dealership network to service real touring customers who are on the road and needing service is actually also passing.. Perhaps,, just maybe,, companies like Polaris with their 1 dealership MAYBE in ever State/Province to service their high dollar Indian "touring" bikes and Yamaha's lacking in that arena is actually a planned item by those companies.. Maybe they realize that, as you say,, there is far more involved with what makes up a sellable/wantable "touring bike" then there used to be..}

[CaseyJ955]

Aside from a few nice sport tourers I cant think of one dedicated Japanese touring bike other than a goldwing, that has more than one cyl per wheel. Someone besides the Europeans need to build a competitor to the goldwing. It looks like Yamaha is not going to be it. Will it happen, dunno but you guys might be right, it could be a dying breed of bike, and maybe of rider.

 

After all, try manufacturing, marketing and selling childrens toys that require putting down the damn phone and going outside. You would starve. IMHO this wont change, we have to simply adjust our expectations, adapt, move forward and enjoy. In the world of dating it means not getting hitched or becoming legally vulnerable to anyone, in the world of toys it means WiFi enabled or bust, in the world of bikes it means riding old bikes like early Ventures, or a Goldwing if you have no legs, I accept this. Times change. I get that Yamaha is probably not catering to me, and the 2nd gen Vmax is likely the last V4 they will bring to production..I may ride my Venture right into the grave but I'll have a ****ing great time doing it

[MikeWa]

I am totally right there with ya Mike,,, makes no sense at all,,, just makes no sense,, unless,,, maybe it has something to do with actual Market size.. If "O" = the size of the market that HD own's 50% of and "O" ^{represents the size of the market that Honda, with its Goldwing has 50% control over and straight up potential for profitability is what Mom Yam was/is looking for then I can see why they may have seen more $$ potential chasing the HD market.. Fact is,, out in the real touring world,, things have really changed..}

^{Long story but Tip n I spent an over nighter with an Over The Road truck driver (owner/op) while out CTFW in Wyoming during the Sturgis Rally. This trucker was on his way to his home in Missouri with a Motor Home he had purchased in Montana - he noticed Tweeks grazing at a fuel station and walked over, got yakking with Tip and I and ended up inviting us to camp in his Motor Home for the rainy night - of course,, who could turn down such a thoughtful offer.. Anyway,, in discussing with him what we are/were all about - his comment of "I spend a LOT of time on the roads of America and gotta say - its a real shame but you folks are a dieing breed".. IMHO,, he nailed it!! Fact is,, the whole motorcycle "touring" idea has changed.. Not that we dont see a TON of HD Ultra Limited or Road Glides out there (HD's version of a "touring" bike IMHO) and a fair amount of Gold Wings and the like BUT - in almost 99% of the sightings - they are found in local traveling circumstances = even what the old timers may call "bar hopping" scenarios..}

^{If what I am saying holds any truth at all,, then possibly the need for an extensive dealership network to service real touring customers who are on the road and needing service is actually also passing.. Perhaps,, just maybe,, companies like Polaris with their 1 dealership MAYBE in ever State/Province to service their high dollar Indian "touring" bikes and Yamaha's lacking in that arena is actually a planned item by those companies.. Maybe they realize that, as you say,, there is far more involved with what makes up a sellable/wantable "touring bike" then there used to be..}

 

 

Well Puc

No doubt what you are saying holds a lot of truth. The touring bike market is shrinking as is the whole of the motorcycle market. So why build a touring bike at all? They must have done enough research to decide there is still money to be made. My point is why chase the part of what is left that you cannot have. Especially when you are throwing out your loyal customer base to chase it. Yamaha has built a pretty nice V-Twin touring bike. But why? In my opinion someone at Yamaha has become so enamored with the success of Harley Davidson he or she talked Yamaha into chasing that segment of the market place. I see almost zero chance of them being successful in that endeavor.

 

Part of what makes Harleys so popular is their huge aftermarket accessory following. They got this by being true to their identity and their model line up. And of course their customer base. Yamaha on the other hand is throwing all that out and starting over. If that sounds like a good plan during tough times than I am wrong. But I still think if Yamaha wants to chase Harley's market place they are going to have to restructure their price point and restructure their infrastructure. I don't think they have the ability to do it. I also think Yamaha would have been better served to listen to the customers they have and built a new Venture that met or exceeded the expectations of past and current Venture riders. Especially those with experience like yours.

 

Mike

[VentureFar]

I had a hunch that you of all people would be intriqued with what was going on in that vid.. Personally I am always amazed as how healthy the little 1200cc 74 inch v-4 truly is in its honest torque delivery (saying that after many years of sitting on the back of one with NO second gear and watching it lovingly drag 2 of us and GOBS of gear up mountains while flying by other machines staring at us wondering what the heck that was that just chugged by em)- one of these days ,, maybe sooner than later if someone actually buys one of the new ones, we will get to see the other half of the real world comparison between the two Yamaha Ventures - new against old, machino' to machino'..

Ya know what,, while out CTFW this past summer and being able to just occasionally read here on the forum I thought I remember reading that one of our members, VentureFar , may be coming into a chance to have one of these new ones around to play with??? If I read what I think I read and wasnt having some form of Prairie hallucinations while out CTFW,,, this could get very very interesting...

 

My friend PUC, other parts might be in serious need of overhaul but your memory is still firing on all Gen 1 four cylinders. I am told the Gen 3 will be within reach the end of this month.

I cant wait.

VentureFar...

[videoarizona]

You know, guys and gals...I've been doing a lot of thinking on this new Venture thing. Despite the lack of brain cells, I did stumble upon a conclusion last night.

 

I think Yamaha did listen to us....here's my thinking:

 

The 1st gen...everything was done right. Had the handling, all the doodads and was a nice comfortable tourer that would blow away any competition. They really thought the bike over when they designed her and built her.

 

The 2nd gen came about because they realized they really needed a scoot that looked like the HD's that were selling like hotcakes. So they grabbed the best motor they had and built around that. They did leave out many doodads that the 1st gen had, but they were going for the HD crowd. Understandable that. But...it didn't work. It sure was comfortable though!

 

Back to the drawing boards they went.

 

They then looked at all the complaints for the 2nd gen, then looked at all the praises for the 1st gen. All of our desires/wants and wishes. Then, they looked at what was selling in the marketplace, from Indian, Victory and HD. And went to work to incorporate all the above.

 

The result is what they built today. The Star Venture. A touring bike that has the heart of the V-Twin (and not just any V-Twin, but a Yamaha designed pushrod baby). It has the low end grunt better than the competition. It has the sound of the V-Twin. It has the appeal of the V-Twin with the durability only Yamaha is known for. Has the handling of the 1st gen, the fixed fairing of the 1st gen, all the doodads like the 1st Gen with the comfort of the 2nd gen.

 

Done...

 

My conclusion is...they named it right. It is a Venture. It has the best of both generations before it. With the marketability of the latest sales trends. That makes perfect sense to my feeble synapses. They nailed it.

 

So in my book...a welcome for the 3rd Gen! The Star Venture.

[luvmy40]

VA, I get what you are saying. I actually agree, intellectually. The problem(for Yamaha) is one of emotion.

 

You see, even if everything you said is true, and I'm not arguing it isn't, the one thing missing is the "Made in the U.S.A." sticker. That is big for the Harley, Indian, Victory folks. That is EMOTION and it, above all else drives the market in the American Cruiser category.

 

On the other side, you have a dedicated customer base for Yamaha in the Venture crowd. But the Venture is a liquid cooled V4. End of discussion. There's that emotion again. It's a palpable force in economics. No getting around it.

 

I guess Yamaha figured the true touring market was too small to support the investment in a Gen. 3 V4 and tried to salvage some of the Venture fans and grab some of the American Cruiser crowd with the same bike. I don't think it was the right approach, but it ain't my money so...

 

$0.02, YMMV

[XV1100SE]

Yamaha said they talked with riders about what they wanted...

1,000 Harley/Indian/Victory - " want a vtwin (because that's all they know) that is cooler than what I have. Belt drive (don't like chain and don't know about shaft drive), with lots of storage, gadgets and gizmos"

 

2 Gold Wing riders/3 Venture riders - "multi-cylinder liquid cooled motor like the V-Max, shaft drive, built for long distance riding with lots of storage, essentials like CB, intercom....."

 

Get the idea? They canvased riders at events where v-twins were the majority, talked to Harley riders because that was their target, and the answers were not the same way anyone with a Venture (1st or 2nd Gen) would have answered.

 

Ask the right question to the wrong people you get the wrong answer. Had they gone to car shows and asked someone that had never ridden a bike before to tell them what they should put into the new "Venture" and you would get totally different answers.

 

Yamaha wasn't after the Touring crowd because there are far fewer of "us" than there are of the Harley/Indian/"other" brands that they wanted to pull market share from. To compete directly with the other v-twin manufacturers you provide a v-twin (apples to apples) but with more bells and whistles. Try to sell an orange to someone that wants an apple and you will get few people that say yes.

 

Had Yamaha wanted to produce a kick-ass touring bike....they would have ignored the v-twin crowd and talked to current/past Venture and Gold Wing riders. Those are the people you get ideas from for what a touring bike requires, what THAT market wants.

 

Yes we are a technical and social forum for 4 cylinder Ventures, but also for touring and general comraderie. We share a passion for motorcycles and as has been said so many times before....we don't care what you ride.

[camos]

My conclusion is...they named it right. It is a Venture. It has the best of both generations before it. With the marketability of the latest sales trends. That makes perfect sense to my feeble synapses. They nailed it.

 

So in my book...a welcome for the 3rd Gen! The Star Venture

The biggest reason for any generation of Venture to remain on the showroom floor too long is its top heaviness. The Gen 1 lost out to the Goldwing because of its naturally lower centre of gravity and the Gen 2 did nothing to address that issue being even more of a pig in the parking lot. New riders were probably turned off before they ever got onto the highway where the Venture could shine and the extra weight was inconsequential.

 

Yamaha lost its vision of an excellent touring bike by pandering to the cruiser weekender crowd and with their pathetic attempt to tap into the Harley cultural mystique of "Made in America". Nothing of consequence is made in America anymore since everything at best is mostly assembled in America from parts made in Asia.

 

Sadly, if the definition of Venture is doo-dads and a fixed fairing then your conclusion may be correct except for the "best of both generations" comment. Losing the shaft drive and V4 is a huge fail and is the reason this GMO touring bike will never be considered a true Gen 3 Venture by anyone other than the easily manipulated.

 

That said, I'd say your justification for building the new Yamaharley is probably spot on and is good reason for its existence. Even with only a V-twin in it, I love the new bike and would own one if I wasn't getting close to being ancient.

[BigLenny]

I agree with most of what everybody is saying here. It all sounds reasonable and true. Technical this, technical that, mix of this, mix of that, emotion this, emotion that......it all sounds like valid reasons for why Yamaha did or didn't build the correct bike. But, I'm not completely buying into the idea that Yammy won't bring some the HD and Indian buyers over. I don't think they'll come in huge bunches, but there could be enough to offset the bleed of current Venture riders that they might lose. The whole wild card in this thing is the Victory riders. If you've taken the time to look at the Vog.net, you will see a bunch of folks that are highly pissed off at Polaris, and the thread they have created concerning the new Venture is filled with people laying praise on Yamaha for what they've created, and a large number of them are committing to test ride it, and even making statements that they would leave Victory to buy the Yamaha if they like what they see. Remember, a large segment of Victory riders are anti HD. And, they like more progressive looking bikes that have the soul of a V-Twin. If there is an influx of Victory riders who start heading over to the Venture, that could absolutely make it worth while for Yamaha.

 

Just my humble opinion.

 

Big Lenny

[CaseyJ955]

The arguement of emotion vs function vs market is highly valid, I enjoyed VideoA's take greatly. Very well thought out. I also know the emotional aspect is maybe #1 . I think the emotional aspect that put me on the Venture and Vmax also kept mee off the Goldwing, which is a picture perfect tour bike in every regard, except its missing some zazz, some soul (and legroom). I can respect Yamahas position on needing a newly designed model to appeal to as many as possible just to cover R&D cost and sell enough to turn a nice profit. As much as I have enjod racking them over this I do get their rational. Time will tell if they cant make them fast enough or if they sit on showroom floors taking up considerable real estate.

 

The best way to make sense of this is to figure they did use considerabl resources to conclude that we distance riders are indeed a dying breed.

[Kretz]

As has been said by others HD, Victory & Indian buyers/ riders are mostly loyal to their brand, Patriotism & the "made in the USA" sticker counts for a LOT, & there's the "kudos" of I ride a Harley, they did a really good marketing job, even non-riders are aware of the brand & there are some who would never even consider a Japanese bike for many, many reasons.

I don't have a horse in this race as I will never be able to afford or justify a Series III Venture (nor do I need one).

I'd like to but I just don't do that type of travelling due to health issues. I love my RSTD but even that is way more than I need & it will be going probably next year. I'll revert to my 900 Vulcan which is more than big enough for 95% of the riding I can do.

There was lots of talk about journeys before the new "Venture" was launched so why didn't they just call it that. The Journey.

Most of the objections I see are nothing to do with the bike being "bad" but simply that it has the wrong name for many.

[cowpuc]

You know, guys and gals...I've been doing a lot of thinking on this new Venture thing. Despite the lack of brain cells, I did stumble upon a conclusion last night.

 

I think Yamaha did listen to us....here's my thinking:

 

The 1st gen...everything was done right. Had the handling, all the doodads and was a nice comfortable tourer that would blow away any competition. They really thought the bike over when they designed her and built her.

 

The 2nd gen came about because they realized they really needed a scoot that looked like the HD's that were selling like hotcakes. So they grabbed the best motor they had and built around that. They did leave out many doodads that the 1st gen had, but they were going for the HD crowd. Understandable that. But...it didn't work. It sure was comfortable though!

 

Back to the drawing boards they went.

 

They then looked at all the complaints for the 2nd gen, then looked at all the praises for the 1st gen. All of our desires/wants and wishes. Then, they looked at what was selling in the marketplace, from Indian, Victory and HD. And went to work to incorporate all the above.

 

The result is what they built today. The Star Venture. A touring bike that has the heart of the V-Twin (and not just any V-Twin, but a Yamaha designed pushrod baby). It has the low end grunt better than the competition. It has the sound of the V-Twin. It has the appeal of the V-Twin with the durability only Yamaha is known for. Has the handling of the 1st gen, the fixed fairing of the 1st gen, all the doodads like the 1st Gen with the comfort of the 2nd gen.

 

Done...

 

My conclusion is...they named it right. It is a Venture. It has the best of both generations before it. With the marketability of the latest sales trends. That makes perfect sense to my feeble synapses. They nailed it.

 

So in my book...a welcome for the 3rd Gen! The Star Venture.

 

 

I dont know Vaz,, you sure Mom Yam was listening to any of her faithful Venture riders??? I went back over to our lists of what we were looking for in the new Venny and found that 99.9% of the responders in those threads had an agreement with the one I quote below in that they wanted at least a V-4, watercooled, shaft drive scoot. :stirthepot::biker:

 

 

 

V4, liquid cooled, shaft, key bag removal, led lighting, decent horns, tach, round gauges, CD changer w/mp3 capability optional, Bluetooth optional, aux sources like USB with power, fixed fairing, storage pockets, air shocks WITH compressor, ABS, good seats you already do.

 

A lot of good 1st generation ideas were dropped in 2nd gen. Like the passenger controls for audio. So nice to let my lady make the changes while I concentrate on road! Or the snap on bags, etc..

[cowpuc]

My friend PUC, other parts might be in serious need of overhaul but your memory is still firing on all Gen 1 four cylinders. I am told the Gen 3 will be within reach the end of this month.

I cant wait.

VentureFar...

 

OUTSTANDING!!!! You have GOT to stay in touch with us about this as it unfolds brother!! You know your ol buddy, brother by a different mother, Puc,,, he CAN NOT WAIT either:fingers-crossed-emo!! PLEASE keep us apprised of the situation Neil!!:thumbsup:

[cowpuc]

I agree with most of what everybody is saying here. It all sounds reasonable and true. Technical this, technical that, mix of this, mix of that, emotion this, emotion that......it all sounds like valid reasons for why Yamaha did or didn't build the correct bike. But, I'm not completely buying into the idea that Yammy won't bring some the HD and Indian buyers over. I don't think they'll come in huge bunches, but there could be enough to offset the bleed of current Venture riders that they might lose. The whole wild card in this thing is the Victory riders. If you've taken the time to look at the Vog.net, you will see a bunch of folks that are highly pissed off at Polaris, and the thread they have created concerning the new Venture is filled with people laying praise on Yamaha for what they've created, and a large number of them are committing to test ride it, and even making statements that they would leave Victory to buy the Yamaha if they like what they see. Remember, a large segment of Victory riders are anti HD. And, they like more progressive looking bikes that have the soul of a V-Twin. If there is an influx of Victory riders who start heading over to the Venture, that could absolutely make it worth while for Yamaha.

 

Just my humble opinion.

 

Big Lenny

 

Its so strange you bring up the whole Victory thing Lenny... After hearing the sound of a V-Twin and saying "ohh poop" when they 1st started them at the unveiling and they pulled them forward to where they could FINALLY be seen IRL,, my second response to

my wife, Tip, was,,,, "someone from the now defunct Victory line (like Arlen Ness) got a job at Yamaha = IT"S A VICTORY".. This inspired me to follow on "The Vog" like you are saying.. I noticed right away that there were more than one comment on that site referring to exactly what I had said to Tip = so I knew I wasnt going nuts ... Fast forward to Sturgis,, bumped into more than one Vic rider there who CLEARLY believed they found a new home in the new Venture - one I have on vid that I will be postinhg up as I continue my report thereof.. It's almost like Mom Yam knew that Polaris was gonna turn her back on her faithful Vic riders and Mom Yam was intending to scoop em up.. Lots of disgruntled Vic owners and Vic dealership owners out there who really did not appreciate how Polaris chose to handle that mess..

That said,,,, the only problem (if there is such a thing,, consider the source of who is writing this comment you are reading) the above if there is any truth to it is that I think Mom Yam may have missed something very important here = the reason WHY Polaris closed their Victory line = THEY DID NOT SELL:confused24:... They (Polaris) tried for almost 20 years to dip into the HD market with the Victory motorcycle of theirs and it didnt work and they (Polaris) was/is a "Made In America" company (I have been and ran with HD Riders for years and "Made In America" is one of the unshakeable marketing tools in their corner for securing their 50% + of the V-Twin "touring" market).

[cowpuc]

As has been said by others HD, Victory & Indian buyers/ riders are mostly loyal to their brand, Patriotism & the "made in the USA" sticker counts for a LOT, & there's the "kudos" of I ride a Harley, they did a really good marketing job, even non-riders are aware of the brand & there are some who would never even consider a Japanese bike for many, many reasons.

I don't have a horse in this race as I will never be able to afford or justify a Series III Venture (nor do I need one).

I'd like to but I just don't do that type of travelling due to health issues. I love my RSTD but even that is way more than I need & it will be going probably next year. I'll revert to my 900 Vulcan which is more than big enough for 95% of the riding I can do.

There was lots of talk about journeys before the new "Venture" was launched so why didn't they just call it that. The Journey.

Most of the objections I see are nothing to do with the bike being "bad" but simply that it has the wrong name for many.

 

Yep,, that last line Kretzer,,,,, that last line explains A LOT IMHO = right there with ya!! Personally,, I really like the new scoot,,, I LOVE the 113 motor (personally perfer it in a chopper platform like the Raider - maybe with an 18 over Springer though ) and flat out consider it a worthy piece.. I think the whole idea of having "parking assist" is a HUGE + for many.. I even like the futuristic look of the machine (I LOVED the "George Jetson" appeal of the Polaris Vision too ) ..

Back to your point,,, bottom line,, when telling us that they were gonna turn the touring world upside down, then billing the machine out as a "Venture" = flat out told a few of us that high performance - Gold Wing/BMW stomping - fire breathing water cooled shaft driven tourer with the heart of the new V-Max was on its way and that our version of the touring world better stand up and pay attention,,,,,,, just a simple matter of misinterpertation or communications break down or something..

Fact is,,this new one really is a GORGEOUS machine that is gonna fit in nicely around here for many many future CTFW riders..

[cowpuc]

The biggest reason for any generation of Venture to remain on the showroom floor too long is its top heaviness. The Gen 1 lost out to the Goldwing because of its naturally lower centre of gravity and the Gen 2 did nothing to address that issue being even more of a pig in the parking lot. New riders were probably turned off before they ever got onto the highway where the Venture could shine and the extra weight was inconsequential.

 

Yamaha lost its vision of an excellent touring bike by pandering to the cruiser weekender crowd and with their pathetic attempt to tap into the Harley cultural mystique of "Made in America". Nothing of consequence is made in America anymore since everything at best is mostly assembled in America from parts made in Asia.

 

Sadly, if the definition of Venture is doo-dads and a fixed fairing then your conclusion may be correct except for the "best of both generations" comment. Losing the shaft drive and V4 is a huge fail and is the reason this GMO touring bike will never be considered a true Gen 3 Venture by anyone other than the easily manipulated.

 

That said, I'd say your justification for building the new Yamaharley is probably spot on and is good reason for its existence. Even with only a V-twin in it, I love the new bike and would own one if I wasn't getting close to being ancient.

 

 

I never did quite get the whole "top heavy" thing with the earlier Ventures... Fact is,,, one of the things I noticed right away when demoing the new one was its weight coming off the kick stand - it was heavy,, more so than my fully loaded 1st Gen IMHO... I like factual evidence A LOT,, I think a really cool test to see would be an actual pull weight measurement going from kickstand on level ground to centerline.. Wouldnt be hard to do...

Anyway,, here is a small demo of slow riding that may or may not demonstrate the actual top heaviness of a 1st Gen Venture, two up and fully loaded (maybe overloaded by somes standards) for touring.. It may also demonstrate the original Ventures prowness for usage in parking lots and so on.. All depending on your perspective of what top heaviness is and what effect it has on slow speed handling I guess...

[luvmy40]

I'm with cowpuc on the top heavy schtick. I don't see it. My Gen 1 handles better at low speed than any HD I've ever ridden. Heck, it's easier to handle than my Maxim and she's 220lbs lighter than the Venture.

[bongobobny]

I'm with cowpuc on the top heavy schtick. I don't see it. My Gen 1 handles better at low speed than any HD I've ever ridden. Heck, it's easier to handle than my Maxim and she's 220lbs lighter than the Venture.

I agree! It's the 2nd gen that has no low speed manners...

[ragtop69gs]

I agree! It's the 2nd gen that has no low speed manners...

I disagree, the more time I spend on my 2nd gen the easier low speed, tight maneuvering becomes. When I first bought the bike I needed a 1 acre field to turn it around, not anymore! I've almost got full lock turns licked.

 

Like that show-off Puc said... RPM's, rear brake and the friction zone give the 2nd gen low speed manners. The key is practice, practice, practice, till you get it, then practice some more. [emoji12]

 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[camos]

There was lots of talk about journeys before the new "Venture" was launched so why didn't they just call it that. The Journey.

Most of the objections I see are nothing to do with the bike being "bad" but simply that it has the wrong name for many.

I was certain that Yamaha would name their new bike a Journey. Not sure if I'll ever get over the dishonesty of smearing the name of our Ventures by applying it to a V-Twin Yamaharley.

[cowpuc]

I disagree, the more time I spend on my 2nd gen the easier low speed, tight maneuvering becomes. When I first bought the bike I needed a 1 acre field to turn it around, not anymore! I've almost got full lock turns licked.

 

Like that show-off Puc said... RPM's, rear brake and the friction zone give the 2nd gen low speed manners. The key is practice, practice, practice, till you get it, then practice some more. [emoji12]

 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

EXACTLY = practice, practice practice,,,,, and not in active intersections either,, find a vacant parking lot and practice, practice, practice.. Practice alone on your scoot till it becomes habit,,, then practice practice practice with your best friend on the back,,,,, practice practice practice,,, then load the scoot up like the 3 of you are gonna be gone touring for months and practice practice practice... At this point its time to put the practice to work,,, now ya can putt in parking lots and slow ride around fuel pumps and even places like Main Street Sturgis without even thinking about it,,, just think,, at this point you can use ALL your focus on double checking what the other person is doing with the car while they are texting or talking on the phone.. Practice, practice practice,,, may just save your life,,,,, practice practice practice....

Get to LOVE practicing!!

[camos]

I'm with cowpuc on the top heavy schtick. I don't see it. My Gen 1 handles better at low speed than any HD I've ever ridden. Heck, it's easier to handle than my Maxim and she's 220lbs lighter than the Venture.

I have never ridden a Harley, just my 1100 Virago which is pretty light. My Gen 1 handles easier when going slow than the Virago as well. This has nothing to do with being top heavy. The reason is the difference in the rake of the forks which is closer to sport bike or standard than the Virago is.

 

Lifting a Gen 1 off the centre stand is related to the top heaviness. When coming to a stop, if the road is the least bit canted and if you are not well balanced enough to get your foot down a little farther it can be a real ***** to hold the bike up. This does get a little easier to manage as you get more experience. There are a few more similar conditions which are notably related to being top heavy. Unlike on my Gen 1, if I come to a sloppy stop on my Virago it is easy to hold up with no likelihood of it going down.

 

Don't lose track when doing comparisons. If it isn't apples to apples then the argument is immaterial.

[camos]

EXACTLY = practice, practice practice,,,,, and not in active intersections either,, find a vacant parking lot and practice, practice, practice..

Agreed, but that's too late to affect the initial decision on the showroom floor or even after a typical demo ride, assuming you are able to get one.

 

I stand by my original statement. Not that I know anything specific about it but it did not appear the Gen 1's spent an overly long time on the showroom floor compared to the Gen 2's. I can't think of any other reason for the Goldwing to trounce the Venture in sales.

[camos]

I disagree, the more time I spend on my 2nd gen the easier low speed, tight maneuvering becomes. When I first bought the bike I needed a 1 acre field to turn it around, not anymore! I've almost got full lock turns licked.

 

Like that show-off Puc said... RPM's, rear brake and the friction zone give the 2nd gen low speed manners. The key is practice, practice, practice, till you get it, then practice some more. [emoji12]

 

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You are just learning to cope with the idiosyncrasies of the bike. Why do you think so many Gen 2 owners go to a smaller front tire, add leveling links to the rear or slide the front forks up in the triple clamp? The answer, of course, is to improve low speed handling.

[ragtop69gs]

You are just learning to cope with the idiosyncrasies of the bike. Why do you think so many Gen 2 owners go to a smaller front tire, add leveling links to the rear or slide the front forks up in the triple clamp? The answer, of course, is to improve low speed handling.

You are right, I have slid the forks up and gone to a 130 front tire, both helped individually and together really do make a difference. I also changed to straight rate front springs with 15WT. fork oil. Still, I think what makes the biggest difference is the ability to lose the fear of the perceived top heaviness.

I must say, I made these changes more for better handling on twisty mountain roads than for parking lot tours.

 

I spent the day yesterday at a HD dealer bike/hotrod show and for every rider that knew how to slow ride, there was 10 that Duckwalked their bikes in the crowded parking lots. That's rider ability, nothing to do with rake or weight.

 

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