Anemic??

[Sailor]

I think that guy must have been trying to ride it like a Harley, low and slow. As a consequence it bogged down. If he had revved it properly he would have been impressed.

[Sailor]

Riding along, just cruising, when a Harley went flying past. One of those flat black bobbed, low handle bar jobs with straight pipes. I knew there was a long, steep hill coming up so I made a point of cruising past him in a higher gear while he was slowly grinding his way up in low gear.

[cowpuc]

Yep,, there has forever been the old saying of "there is no replacement for displacement",, just like in this discussion - around my neighborhood (I live in big twin country here) we sit and debate the truth to that statement endlessly, with me - as it has been for years - being the stand alone adversary taking the other side of the argument that simply states = yea,, until you factor in technology.. One of my favorite counter statements has always been = "the bigger they are the harder they fall"..

Fact is,, the air cooled Big Twin "knife/fork" single pin crank push rod engine design of the early 1900's has its limitations just because of its design AND all the clones thereof including ALL and ANY of todays V-Twin motors (water cooled included) also have their failings because of those same design limitations..

YES - attempts have been made - like the offset cylinder dual pin crank and the side by side rods to get away from the trade design patents that The Motor Company has on the 45 degree - knife and fork rod design (you didnt REALLY think everyone did that because it would produce a better motor did you? Fact is, Big Twin buyers would rather have a motor that is destined to fail but "sounds" great than they would move on to effeciency in engine design = sales world wide PROVE this point). Polaris even went to extremes with a copy cat design in their Victory line that moved away from the archiac push rod design and moved the V-Twin into the much more effecient and durable overhead cam design PLUS they jacketed their jugs with oil cooling jackets - AMAZING in itself.. Problem was - the design was butt ugly with the result being a V-Twin engine that looked more like an air compressor motor than the Harley motor they were trying to copy cat and the whole thing flopped like a fish dying on dry land - proving once again that its not about torque, go power, durability or any thing logical = its TOTALLY about looks and sounds when it comes to motorcycles and v-twins.

Here are some facts,, currently sitting in my garage is a tiny motored (by todays standards" = a 60 inch motor is TINY) R1 Yamaha.. Its little inline 5 valve 4 cylinder motor will propel a 220 pound rider to 105 mph in first gear quicker then you can close the throttle to keep you from going over backwards in the process of getting there - frankly,, it is STUPID fast... The 1700cc "Motus" has been mentioned in the thread. My Big Twin buddies keep trying to throw this marvelous machine into my face when discussing the R1 too.. They recently proclaimed the Motus to be the fastest production motorcycle in the world BUT - when asked if any of them had read the fine print on that claim NONE of them would conceed that they had.. Had they read the fine print they would have noticed the words = "FASTEST DOMESTIC MOTORCYCLE" with a top speed of 163 mph. One only has to own the little no name putzy 60inch 1000cc 5 valve Yamaha with its 4 tiny little 2 and 3/4 inch pistons for a very short time to realize that the big motored super bike Motus's flat out top speed can easily be tanked by the R1 - and in 5th gear (leaving the R1 rider a whole nuther gear to play with if he dares.. "no replacement for displacement" and massive torque is king = BUNK.

Recently, while out trying to prove to my buddy with his 117 inch built Harley (that I helped him build) that even from 0 to 50 the little putzy under motored Yamaha would have his big twin massive torque producing Harley for lunch and after proving my point, my friend shakingly said = its still not as fast as I thought it would be:big-grin-emoticon: (I was only 1/2 a block in front of him at the end of my 1st gear).. I tried to explain to him that, unlike todays "modern" v-twins = the lil Yammy had to be handled very carefully when in the lower 4 gears because if you didnt cautiously work your way up thru the rpm range the bike would vicisouly and without noticed - flip over and pound your face into the pavement.. My buddy looked at me suspicially and said he thought it sounded like my clutch was slipping.. I told him that sound was me working my up to speed by feeding the little under torqued tiny motor just enough throttle to eat his lunch while keeping the front end down and thereby keep from becoming ground meat myself. He still didnt believe me and I invited him to switch bikes with me and for him to wick the throttle open on the teeny 1000cc R1 in first gear himself - an invitation to which he declined..

Fact is folks,,,,, there REALLY some solid truth to all this yak about torque and anyone who has been around engines at all KNOWS it.. When it comes to pulling stumps, rail road cars, turning soil over in a field or dragging cars out of ditches then yea,, torque is king!! Problem is,, in all my days of riding scoots - be it clearing 150 jumps on a motocross track, hanging a rear tire out on the ice, tooling down the highway with Tip on the back and a couple hundred pounds of gear on Tweeks back running 85+ all day long in tempts well above 100 degrees "F" - I aint never ever found the need to attach a field disc to the back of any of my scoots or attempt to pull rail car or even drag a car out of a ditch...

Sooo,, whats all this got to do with the little Yamaha v-4 in our Ventures... Well,,, I purposely defaulted to the even smaller engine in my R1 to prove a point.. Fact is,, it would pay each of us to remember that Mom Yam DETUNED these teeny little 74 inch engines when they dropped them in our Touring bikes.. I also owned one of the, if not THE most amazing muscle bikes of all times = the little modern day Harley V-Rod slaying 74 inch V-Max and can totally attest to the fact that - even though these true Ventures have been ripped of their v-boost, cam profiles, valve diameters, timing advance and high compression pistons - they have ALL the torque and plently of Horse Power they need to put to shame any of the STOCK modern day V-Twins being mass produced at this time. I recently had a real nice discussion with one of SnS's (YES = THE SnS) retired engineers while at a big Rally.. He was telling me that the little Yamaha V-4 was actually their benchmark for performance in designing Big Twins - something that in all of his years with the company - they never were able to get there because,, get this,, Big Twin design and modern technology are extremely hard to blend.. Advancements = YES (some of you folks may remember the days of yesteryear when just metalurgy alone lacked so much that Aluminum in cases was so porus that oil would leak right thru the cases and the stuff was so soft you could actually make a mark in the outer cases with YOUR FINGER NAIL - no joke!!) - bringing those air cooled Big Twins of yesterday up to the performance of and relialbility of todays modern day engine standards while maintaining the sound/feel/smell/engine noise/oil leaking/high maintenance needs/ vibrating/heat producing ways of a time long gone by while in the process is just not possible..

Bottom line,, was I SHOCKED to here the sound of a V-Twin eminate from the bikes that were soon to be proclaimed at Americade as the new Venture that Mom Yam had proclaimed was gonna turn the touring world upside down - NO DOUBT - I was SHOCKED! I was picturing a twin turboed (massive torque producing 1st stage - massive hp producing 2nd) v-4 modern day fixed fairing tourer that was so covered that even the hardest of cross winds in states like Wyoming or Utah could NEVER burn my lovely wives legs from motor heat being blown across them AND able to pull a car out of ditch if I needed to).. I stood in amazement as the Star Riders who had supposively given Mom Yam the advice on what to build in the new Venture applauded the new machines massive torque producing air cooled Harley look alike V-twin push rod motor and asked myself,,, who are these people and what,, if anything,, do they know about touring on a motorcycle that I dont know???

After calming down (it took some time) and getting to read the responses both on our site here and on many other web pages,, I have come to realize that, IMHO,, everything really has changed in the touring world and that quite possibly, the cruiser world with all its bar hoppin, short distance riding, trailering em in instead of riding them has grown to include the touring bike designs.

Hmmmm,,, makes me love that nasty ol sticker covered shaft drive low torque 74 inch V-4 all the more..

Edited July 26, 2017 by cowpuc

[videoarizona]

On another note, I seem to have more of a problem with trying to keep my speed down then I do in getting there. I have occasionally found when getting on the highway and I punch it on the ramp to accelerate to highway speed, I have looked down to see that all though I am in third I have far exceeded the speed limit and haven't even left the ramp yet and have to back off the throttle to smoothly merge with traffic. That to to me is far from Anemic.

 

 

I'm with you on this. My biggest problem is on the on-ramp or passing. I really don't realize how much power I have to pass or get up to speed until I look down at the speedo. Whoops! Dam smooth motor!

[Yammer Dan]

Yep,, there has forever been the old saying of "there is no replacement for displacement",, just like in this discussion - around my neighborhood (I live in big twin country here) we sit and debate the truth to that statement endlessly, with me - as it has been for years - being the stand alone adversary taking the other side of the argument that simply states = yea,, until you factor in technology.. One of my favorite counter statements has always been = "the bigger they are the harder they fall"..

Fact is,, the air cooled Big Twin "knife/fork" single pin crank push rod engine design of the early 1900's has its limitations just because of its design AND all the clones thereof including ALL and ANY of todays V-Twin motors (water cooled included) also have their failings because of those same design limitations..

YES - attempts have been made - like the offset cylinder dual pin crank and the side by side rods to get away from the trade design patents that The Motor Company has on the 45 degree - knife and fork rod design (you didnt REALLY think everyone did that because it would produce a better motor did you? Fact is, Big Twin buyers would rather have a motor that is destined to fail but "sounds" great than they would move on to effeciency in engine design = sales world wide PROVE this point). Polaris even went to extremes with a copy cat design in their Victory line that moved away from the archiac push rod design and moved the V-Twin into the much more effecient and durable overhead cam design PLUS they jacketed their jugs with oil cooling jackets - AMAZING in itself.. Problem was - the design was butt ugly with the result being a V-Twin engine that looked more like an air compressor motor than the Harley motor they were trying to copy cat and the whole thing flopped like a fish dying on dry land - proving once again that its not about torque, go power, durability or any thing logical = its TOTALLY about looks and sounds when it comes to motorcycles and v-twins.

Here are some facts,, currently sitting in my garage is a tiny motored (by todays standards" = a 60 inch motor is TINY) R1 Yamaha.. Its little inline 5 valve 4 cylinder motor will propel a 220 pound rider to 105 mph in first gear quicker then you can close the throttle to keep you from going over backwards in the process of getting there - frankly,, it is STUPID fast... The 1700cc "Motus" has been mentioned in the thread. My Big Twin buddies keep trying to throw this marvelous machine into my face when discussing the R1 too.. They recently proclaimed the Motus to be the fastest production motorcycle in the world BUT - when asked if any of them had read the fine print on that claim NONE of them would conceed that they had.. Had they read the fine print they would have noticed the words = "FASTEST DOMESTIC MOTORCYCLE" with a top speed of 163 mph. One only has to own the little no name putzy 60inch 1000cc 5 valve Yamaha with its 4 tiny little 2 and 3/4 inch pistons for a very short time to realize that the big motored super bike Motus's flat out top speed can easily be tanked by the R1 - and in 5th gear (leaving the R1 rider a whole nuther gear to play with if he dares.. "no replacement for displacement" and massive torque is king = BUNK.

Recently, while out trying to prove to my buddy with his 117 inch built Harley (that I helped him build) that even from 0 to 50 the little putzy under motored Yamaha would have his big twin massive torque producing Harley for lunch and after proving my point, my friend shakingly said = its still not as fast as I thought it would be:big-grin-emoticon: (I was only 1/2 a block in front of him at the end of my 1st gear).. I tried to explain to him that, unlike todays "modern" v-twins = the lil Yammy had to be handled very carefully when in the lower 4 gears because if you didnt cautiously work your way up thru the rpm range the bike would vicisouly and without noticed - flip over and pound your face into the pavement.. My buddy looked at me suspicially and said he thought it sounded like my clutch was slipping.. I told him that sound was me working my up to speed by feeding the little under torqued tiny motor just enough throttle to eat his lunch while keeping the front end down and thereby keep from becoming ground meat myself. He still didnt believe me and I invited him to switch bikes with me and for him to wick the throttle open on the teeny 1000cc R1 in first gear himself - an invitation to which he declined..

Fact is folks,,,,, there REALLY some solid truth to all this yak about torque and anyone who has been around engines at all KNOWS it.. When it comes to pulling stumps, rail road cars, turning soil over in a field or dragging cars out of ditches then yea,, torque is king!! Problem is,, in all my days of riding scoots - be it clearing 150 jumps on a motocross track, hanging a rear tire out on the ice, tooling down the highway with Tip on the back and a couple hundred pounds of gear on Tweeks back running 85+ all day long in tempts well above 100 degrees "F" - I aint never ever found the need to attach a field disc to the back of any of my scoots or attempt to pull rail car or even drag a car out of a ditch...

Sooo,, whats all this got to do with the little Yamaha v-4 in our Ventures... Well,,, I purposely defaulted to the even smaller engine in my R1 to prove a point.. Fact is,, it would pay each of us to remember that Mom Yam DETUNED these teeny little 74 inch engines when they dropped them in our Touring bikes.. I also owned one of the, if not THE most amazing muscle bikes of all times = the little modern day Harley V-Rod slaying 74 inch V-Max and can totally attest to the fact that - even though these true Ventures have been ripped of their v-boost, cam profiles, valve diameters, timing advance and high compression pistons - they have ALL the torque and plently of Horse Power they need to put to shame any of the STOCK modern day V-Twins being mass produced at this time. I recently had a real nice discussion with one of SnS's (YES = THE SnS) retired engineers while at a big Rally.. He was telling me that the little Yamaha V-4 was actually their benchmark for performance in designing Big Twins - something that in all of his years with the company - they never were able to get there because,, get this,, Big Twin design and modern technology are extremely hard to blend.. Advancements = YES (some of you folks may remember the days of yesteryear when just metalurgy alone lacked so much that Aluminum in cases was so porus that oil would leak right thru the cases and the stuff was so soft you could actually make a mark in the outer cases with YOUR FINGER NAIL - no joke!!) - bringing those air cooled Big Twins of yesterday up to the performance of and relialbility of todays modern day engine standards while maintaining the sound/feel/smell/engine noise/oil leaking/high maintenance needs/ vibrating/heat producing ways of a time long gone by while in the process is just not possible..

Bottom line,, was I SHOCKED to here the sound of a V-Twin eminate from the bikes that were soon to be proclaimed at Americade as the new Venture that Mom Yam had proclaimed was gonna turn the touring world upside down - NO DOUBT - I was SHOCKED! I was picturing a twin turboed (massive torque producing 1st stage - massive hp producing 2nd) v-4 modern day fixed fairing tourer that was so covered that even the hardest of cross winds in states like Wyoming or Utah could NEVER burn my lovely wives legs from motor heat being blown across them AND able to pull a car out of ditch if I needed to).. I stood in amazement as the Star Riders who had supposively given Mom Yam the advice on what to build in the new Venture applauded the new machines massive torque producing air cooled Harley look alike V-twin push rod motor and asked myself,,, who are these people and what,, if anything,, do they know about touring on a motorcycle that I dont know???

After calming down (it took some time) and getting to read the responses both on our site here and on many other web pages,, I have come to realize that, IMHO,, everything really has changed in the touring world and that quite possibly, the cruiser world with all its bar hoppin, short distance riding, trailering em in instead of riding them has grown to include the touring bike designs.

Hmmmm,,, makes me love that nasty ol sticker covered shaft drive low torque 74 inch V-4 all the more..

 

 

:sign yeah that::sign yeah that::sign yeah that: Now see what ya stired up!!! Some of us know the facts but don't want the Harley Dudes ta figure it out!! Too much fun seeing their faces!!!

[cowpuc]

:sign yeah that::sign yeah that::sign yeah that: Now see what ya stired up!!! Some of us know the facts but don't want the Harley Dudes ta figure it out!! Too much fun seeing their faces!!!

 

:big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon:,, sorry bro,, I'm a little sensitive when it comes to my v-4's :big-grin-emoticon:

 

In all honesty,, they aint gonna figure it out DanL' - seriously,,, that ol saying about "you can drag a horse to water but cha can't make em drink" is another one

 

Ya wanna know what I really think (keep in mind,, I might be wrong about this - hoping I am actually,,, truly hoping that someone actually figured out some new way to eliminate the need for water cooling, a way to actually make that slim in stance V-Twin air cooled big twin motor perform reliably and with temps cool enough that a person can sit in California traffic backups for hours on end and his wife can lay her leg against the top end and never even wince - if thats the case - I WILL be the first one to admit I was wrong and that Mom Yam did in fact = turn the touring world upside down!!!)?

I think the actual touring world (that Honda owns with their Wing) as we old schoolers know it is such a small market that competing in it is pointless.. The BIG market = the one that Harley owns is a completely different market that has very little, if anything, to do with "touring".. I honestly think that Mom Yam basically miss-spoke herself when she said = "we are going to turn the touring world upside down".. She should have said = "we are going to turn the Harley and Harley clone world upside down".

I recently read somewhere that the REAL message that the unveiling sent to the touring world was that "the folks at Honda breathed a sigh of relief and everyone went back to work on the Wings with a smile on their face - no competition here".. THAT statement encompassed everything I have been trying to put into words..

[RDawson]

Had a kid trying to mess with me red light to red light on a rice rocket this week, I ignored home first few lights. We stopped at the last light on the edge of town, I pulled him up through third before blue lights came on behind us. Oops. He used a lot of words describing the VR but anemic wasn't one of them. Trooper was laughing at him so hard for trailing a tourer he just said slow down and got back in his car. Neither one of them could believe It was bone stock.

[s.tyler58]

If someone can't ride any machine and learn to feel where that machines power curve is than he is not a natural rider.

 

It's amazing to me how many faces of riders go blank when I speak of power curve...

 

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[s.tyler58]

Love this description, Cowpuc!

 

"- bringing those air cooled Big Twins of yesterday up to the performance of and relialbility of todays modern day engine standards while maintaining the sound/feel/smell/engine noise/oil leaking/high maintenance needs/ vibrating/heat producing ways of a time long gone by while in the process is just not possible.."

 

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[cowpuc]

If someone can't ride any machine and learn to feel where that machines power curve is than he is not a natural rider.

 

It's amazing to me how many faces of riders go blank when I speak of power curve...

 

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They certainly didnt cut their bikin teeth on the early Elsinore's, YZ's or Suki TM's I tell ya Ty,,,, brrrrrrrRAAPPPP:missingtooth:

[s.tyler58]

That's what those Hardly riders tell me....when I stop to let them catch up.

 

 

 

"If someone can't ride any machine and learn to feel where that machines power curve is than he is not a natural rider." ~Cowpuc

 

It's amazing to me how many faces of riders go blank when I speak of power curve...

 

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[s.tyler58]

I had the first KZ650 Kaw in Lincoln, NE back in 76. My buddy had what I began and still do refer to as The Water Buffalo. Suzuki 750 Triple. Ate his lunch every day!

 

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[cowpuc]

I had the first KZ650 Kaw in Lincoln, NE back in 76. My buddy had what I began and still do refer to as The Water Buffalo. Suzuki 750 Triple. Ate his lunch every day!

 

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Yep,, those "lil 650's" were sleepers if there ever was one - THAT is a FACT!! 4 gear wheelies allll day long.. Had a friend with one who would put a whoopin on my Low Rider at any time - half the cubes and LOOK OUT MAMA - HERE COMES JIMMY ON HIS KZ!!

Now Ty,, if we was yakkin H2 Kawi - or even the little 500 H1 - then we'ld have a debate happening... Good night those ol Widow Makers were ferocious beasts...

Speakin of giant killers,, remember the teany little RD350? Learn the power band on one of those sweet hearts and BYE BYE Triumps, Beezers, Sportys and other scoots 3x its size.... I still dont think they outlawed em cause of emissions,,, the lil fellers stepped on wayyy to many toes maybe

The guy who owned our local Yamaha shop used to spoon on a Chen Sheng knobby on his RD and go play in the woods with it.. In the sand his pipes became like skiies and WOW could he scoot the dunes!!! What a life!!

[s.tyler58]

Was the 500 H1 the 2 Cycle triple? My best friend had one and it inspired me to get the 650.

One summer I ran with some Harley bikers. (Lost three years somewhere in the late 70's) They called me the Silver Streak. Ran circles around them like a Shriner in a parade. Only "Rice Grinder" they'd tolerate. What a summer!

 

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[cowpuc]

Was the 500 H1 the 2 Cycle triple? My best friend had one and it inspired me to get the 650.

One summer I ran with some Harley bikers. (Lost three years somewhere in the late 70's) They called me the Silver Streak. Ran circles around them like a Shriner in a parade. Only "Rice Grinder" they'd tolerate. What a summer!

 

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Yeppers,, not to be confused with the Suzy Buffalo in any form though - the Kawi's got right with the program BUT were air cooled and had a high failure rate on the piston of center jug.. The sneak was to jet em a little heavier on that cylinder = helped a lot.. I still got some pieces around here somewhere from my H1 (500)..

The Suzkies were a lot better built IMHO - seemed to be a little concerned with reliability than performance - those things weighed a ton compared to the Kaws...

WOnder those Harley guys didnt swat at cha.. I made my first trip to Sturgis back in 72 riding a 650 Yam,, in those days it was tradition to hang and burn metrics on main street - definitely a different day n age.. Perhaps the group you hung with had more happening upstairs than some of the varmints I would see up North of Nebraska?? Definitely possible:big-grin-emoticon:

WOW,, where did all the years go

[s.tyler58]

Right? Where would I put a pic of me and that beautiful 650. Always had timing chain noise in that first gen.. She sure would eat footpegs and handle like she was an extension of your body at speeds that make me pee a little today.

 

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[s.tyler58]

They were a mean bunch. I was funny and the girls liked me. And, truth be told, I had access to things they enjoyed. No dummies in Nebraska. Iowa maybe, hahaha.

 

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[Pic]

Speakin of giant killers,, remember the teany little RD350? Learn the power band on one of those sweet hearts and BYE BYE Triumps, Beezers, Sportys and other scoots 3x its size.... I still dont think they outlawed em cause of emissions,,, the lil fellers stepped on wayyy to many toes maybe

The guy who owned our local Yamaha shop used to spoon on a Chen Sheng knobby on his RD and go play in the woods with it.. In the sand his pipes became like skiies and WOW could he scoot the dunes!!! What a life!!

 

I had one in the late 70s, Maroon color and my brother had a white RD250. Had a lot of fun on those bikes.

[Yammer Dan]

I had one in the late 70s, Maroon color and my brother had a white RD250. Had a lot of fun on those bikes.

 

 

With the chrome sides on the tank? I know Nothing!! They still cussing me in Charleston WV!!!

[baylensman]

(I was only 1/2 a block in front of him at the end of my 1st gear).. I tried to explain to him that, unlike todays "modern" v-twins = the lil Yammy had to be handled very carefully when in the lower 4 gears because if you didnt cautiously work your way up thru the rpm range the bike would vicisouly and without noticed - flip over and pound your face into the pavement.. My buddy looked at me suspicially and said he thought it sounded like my clutch was slipping.. I told him that sound was me working my up to speed by feeding the little under torqued tiny motor just enough throttle to eat his lunch while keeping the front end down and thereby keep from becoming ground meat myself. ..

 

PUC I've had a similar experience, although with my old XS850 triple. Several of the guys sitting around the picnic table at the Apt complex talking bikes. One asked Why i slipped my clutch so much going out the lane. The others all nodded and agreed. I told them flat out My clutch doesn't slip I was running thru 3 gears and hitting 80MPH before slowing down for the corner. The ALL called BS. So i said follow me, so an assortment of bikes and car lined up and tried to chase me down the lane to the main road.

 

what followed was a 20 mile jaunt thru the country side. with them suggesting various places to line up with straight aways a little longer so they could get up to speed, various time I waited for them to all leave then powered right past them. displacement is okay but you need the tech behind it. Thats why the little 5.0 liter Mustang is running with the 5.7 liter cameras and 6.2 liter dodges.

All thru out the pony car wars ford gave away a half liter or more and stayed in the field.

[videoarizona]

Was the 500 H1 the 2 Cycle triple? My best friend had one and it inspired me to get the 650.

One summer I ran with some Harley bikers. (Lost three years somewhere in the late 70's) They called me the Silver Streak. Ran circles around them like a Shriner in a parade. Only "Rice Grinder" they'd tolerate. What a summer!

 

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Traveling cross country on my YDS6C, 250cc, pulled off road in the South and parked near a group of Harleys. One guy came over, saw my little scrambler, and invited me to join. This was in 1969. I was just out of USAF basic on way to Arizona for direct duty. I was a bit scared as they were rough looking. They have me a dose of ribbing, but they were amazed I was touring on a 250. I sleep well that night! I do think they were grateful I was taking a detour to visit a lady friend the next day so couldn't ride with them!!

 

Just three months before, riding across Mississippi, stopped in Jackson for lunch. Had long hair. Got lousy service. This time, coming out of basic after picking up my bike in same state at friends house, I stopped there again and got great service. Same waitress. Asked her if she remembered me. She didn't until I showed her my license Pic with long hair. She's was embarrassed. I left without saying another word. Moral: the bikers were more accepting of me with short hair then the general population with me and long hair. 1969.

 

Oh.. Found a really good picture of a YDS6C.... Guy in England restored it!

Beautiful job...

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by videoarizona

[s.tyler58]

Good story! Many of my old biking buddies are some of the most conservative amazing Christian men. Or dead. It always amazed me as hippies and Drug people searching for truth that others people's search Led them to more lies, but many of us found life. My friends who went on to college and furthering their education became bleeding heart agnostic liberals.

 

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