New Star Venture

[Drews]

COWPUC it was BUCKSHOT

[ragtop69gs]

SHEESH,, took ya long enough,, I almost headed to the shrink,,,,,,,, thanks brother!!!!!!

Heyyyy,,got my beat up ol Luger Ruger .22 out,, cleaned,, polished and fired a few rounds = still works:hurts:.. Next Hot Dog outing in the north woods sometime this summer gonna grab some balloons and tacks - have a shoot to win a Hot Dog contest

If you happen to make one of our Hot Dog extravaganza's even if its not a shoot to win one - any chance ya might still have that new Flag ya offered me last year?? Should of just let ya swapped it out then Raggy but I messed up = the one you stuck on er at the rally at your place is finally completed her job - be HONORED to move up to the new sacred Old Glory if you happen to still have it and send this next one back with you for its proper disposal ... Even more than happy to pay for your services my friend!!!

 

Shootin for weenies! I'm game for that! .22 only?

 

I do still have old glory, it's still in my pannier waiting for you. I look forward to our next M,GnE,M

[bongobobny]

Yup, it was Gil you speak of! His tuxedo Venture sure is a beut!

 

I agree with Jay, we want bigger caliper...

[BlueSky]

Yep, the reduced mass of a multi-valve engine valve train allows it to rev more freely as was pointed out earlier on the valve springs not having to be as strong.

The old man Honda who started the Honda company didn't like 2 stroke bikes and he competed against 2 stroke dirt bikes with his mult-valve 4 strokes that could rev to 22,000 rpm!!! This was in the 50's I think. So Honda knows how to build high revving engines!

[Flyinfool]

Bigger caliber? So I should bring my hand howitzer? (If it aint sold by then.........)

Or should I just bring my 22 Ruger MKII with the 10" bull barrel.

[CaseyJ955]

Yep, the reduced mass of a multi-valve engine valve train allows it to rev more freely as was pointed out earlier on the valve springs not having to be as strong.

The old man Honda who started the Honda company didn't like 2 stroke bikes and he competed against 2 stroke dirt bikes with his mult-valve 4 strokes that could rev to 22,000 rpm!!! This was in the 50's I think. So Honda knows how to build high revving engines!

 

Not to one-up, but my watercooled Venture can rev to around 23,000, so yea... there ya go

 

I love the early small cal Hondas that can rev like Formula 1 cars, I saw one on a race circuit once. It's beyond *****en' Valve spring strength makes sense and probably port design being narrow enough to keep charge velocity high as it enters the chamber. I think this threw me, it's the first time I saw more than 2 valves/cyl on a vehicle with such a lethargic red line. I remember Yamaha Genesis 5 valve design, pretty cool and as I recall very effective.

 

So now that we know what the engine is do we really know why it's so limited in the revs? Maybe head design to get the torque, maybe it would be to many powerstrokes for the air cooling to be adequate. I am fascinated to say the least.

[RandyR]

Yamaha designed heads for other companies at one time. Toyota being the most well known.

[Flyinfool]

I was thinking along the same lines as far as heat is concerned, I was wondering if the September release date had anything to do with being at the end of riding season and after the worst of summer is over so that they can get 6-9 months of sales in before real summer heat is experienced by anyone.

[steamer]

Has anyone talked to a dealer about what they know about the bike? Or were reps asked at Americade about how they handle the summer heat?

 

I would still have preferred the liquid cooled V4 and shaft drive...if I get the opportunity I'd take one for a spin...but with what I have invested in my 2nd Gen (chrome and add-ons) and that the motor is just broken in at 85,000 km (53,000 miles) with years of life in it...financially it wouldn't make sense for me to get a new Gen 3

As time goes by I'm softening to V-twin motor but still have questions on it such as lifecycle (what mileage would be expected out of it) and the heat from the motor. Neither of these questions are issues with the V4.

 

The rep I talked to said the vent system is designed to direct max amount of air around the engine for max cooling at cruising speed. the vent system is also designed to vent that heat away from the riders. The rider can control the system to direct the heat to the rides in cool/cold riding conditions and away form them in hot conditions. They also said they did extensive heat testing and the results are no more heat on the riders then a liquid cooled bike. Only test rides and time will tell.

[steamer]

I was thinking along the same lines as far as heat is concerned, I was wondering if the September release date had anything to do with being at the end of riding season and after the worst of summer is over so that they can get 6-9 months of sales in before real summer heat is experienced by anyone.

 

I don't think any company that wants to make $$$ would do something that dumb. They are in it for the long run, so they better have one hell of a bike or take a bill loss.

[snyper316]

I don't think any company that wants to make $$$ would do something that dumb. They are in it for the long run, so they better have one hell of a bike or take a bill loss.

I don't know where you live but September is usually the hottest month around here. So I'm sure anybody going for a ride on one then should be able to tell if its gonna do well with heat.

 

Sent from my LG-K371 using Tapatalk

[BlueSky]

Not to one-up, but my watercooled Venture can rev to around 23,000, so yea... there ya go

 

I love the early small cal Hondas that can rev like Formula 1 cars, I saw one on a race circuit once. It's beyond *****en' Valve spring strength makes sense and probably port design being narrow enough to keep charge velocity high as it enters the chamber. I think this threw me, it's the first time I saw more than 2 valves/cyl on a vehicle with such a lethargic red line. I remember Yamaha Genesis 5 valve design, pretty cool and as I recall very effective.

 

So now that we know what the engine is do we really know why it's so limited in the revs? Maybe head design to get the torque, maybe it would be to many powerstrokes for the air cooling to be adequate. I am fascinated to say the least.

 

I was posting from my memory of reading an article many years ago about the 22,000 rpm Honda. So, I did a search and found this article about one of the 22k rpm Hondas.

 

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2013/02/article/memorable-motorcycle-honda-rc148/

 

Low angle V-twins are one of the worst designs as far as dynamic balancing. I think that is one factor in the rpm limit. And if you cam an engine for low rpm torque it usually doesn't have a lot of high rpm hp. Yamaha chose a cruiser engine for a cruising bike. If we want a performance oriented bagger, we'll have to buy a Goldwing or BMW. I think Yamaha could have put a large 4 cylinder engine in the bike and by slanting it forward could lower the center of gravity like BMW did with the K1600 GTL. But that ain't the market they are after. Oh by the way, a straight 6 is the best dynamically balanced engine.

Edited June 15, 2017 by BlueSky

[Du-Rron]

Here is something interesting...

 

http://www.cycleworld.com/cooling-the-authentic-way-kevin-cameron-top-dead-center

[rickardracing]

I don't think the problem is very large while moving...what about at a standstill ? If you are in 90+ temperatures and stuck in stop and go traffic (worst case situation)....there won't be air movement. Air cooled motors are cooled by air movement. No air movement, the engine heats up. How effective will the oil cooling be ?

 

 

 

Ask any Harley owner. I have about 800 miles of seat time on rented Harleys. I rented one in South Dakota and rode to Mt. Rushmore and surrounding areas putting over almost 300 miles on it that day. It was in the mid 90's....I got stuck in some nasty traffic in Rapid City.....sat in one spot for almost 30 minutes with the bike running. It was hot, but not unbearable. All of you guys are blowing this air cooled thing WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion.

[BlueSky]

Ask any Harley owner. I have about 800 miles of seat time on rented Harleys. I rented one in South Dakota and rode to Mt. Rushmore and surrounding areas putting over almost 300 miles on it that day. It was in the mid 90's....I got stuck in some nasty traffic in Rapid City.....sat in one spot for almost 30 minutes with the bike running. It was hot, but not unbearable. All of you guys are blowing this air cooled thing WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion.

 

What I'm concerned about is the oil temperature. I don't think the typical air cooled bike engine will last 250k miles like a water cooled. As someone else pointed out when it is sitting in traffic the oil cooler doesn't help much either unless they put a fan on it.

[SilvrT]

What I'm concerned about is the oil temperature. I don't think the typical air cooled bike engine will last 250k miles like a water cooled. As someone else pointed out when it is sitting in traffic the oil cooler doesn't help much either unless they put a fan on it.

 

I guess those engineers of bike engines that are air cooled and use oil coolers just figured sticking an oil cooler on a bike makes it look cool ...

 

Ya, and those fins that are meant to disperse heat are nothing more than decorative extras ....

 

Oh, and how many of you are really gonna ride that many miles on your scoot? Crikey mate ... I wouldn't even put that many miles on my car!

 

And how many of you would buy a bike, any bike, that has over 200,000 miles on it and the engine has never been touched and expect to go riding off into the sunset worry free?

 

(just sayin yanno)

 

[SilvrT]

All of you guys are blowing this air cooled thing WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion.

 

:sign yeah that:

[Sailor]

In my opinion Yamaha has blown it. The 6 cyl, water cooled Gold wing is lighter and more powerful. What Yamaha seems to have come up with is a heavier gold wing with a Harley engine. Not for me.

[CaseyJ955]

I guess those engineers of bike engines that are air cooled and use oil coolers just figured sticking an oil cooler on a bike makes it look cool ...

 

Ya, and those fins that are meant to disperse heat are nothing more than decorative extras ....

 

Oh, and how many of you are really gonna ride that many miles on your scoot? Crikey mate ... I wouldn't even put that many miles on my car!

 

And how many of you would buy a bike, any bike, that has over 200,000 miles on it and the engine has never been touched and expect to go riding off into the sunset worry free?

 

(just sayin yanno)

 

 

A good question deserves an honest answer. Show me a boxer with a service history, price it right for a bike with 200k and I'll absolutely ride off into the sunset on it. Triumph Triple, same again. My Triple still had all the crosshatch on each cylinder at 80k, it looked like a pretty new engine inside. Some engines are well crafted and made to last. Other engines have different priorities and purposes. An air cooled twin is not designed with longevity or performance in mind, it's just not. I really dont see how it will be much different than many other air cooled twins on the market aside from 8 valves. It wont be terribly exciting, it wont pile on lots of miles and at a long stop light in August you will still fry. Love it or hate it, it is what it is.

[slowrollwv]

A good question deserves an honest answer. Show me a boxer with a service history, price it right for a bike with 200k and I'll absolutely ride off into the sunset on it. Triumph Triple, same again. My Triple still had all the crosshatch on each cylinder at 80k, it looked like a pretty new engine inside. Some engines are well crafted and made to last. Other engines have different priorities and purposes. An air cooled twin is not designed with longevity or performance in mind, it's just not. I really dont see how it will be much different than many other air cooled twins on the market aside from 8 valves. It wont be terribly exciting, it wont pile on lots of miles and at a long stop light in August you will still fry. Love it or hate it, it is what it is.

 

8 valves isn't new they have been doing that for years. The speck sheet says 8 valves not 8 per cylinder. By the way my RSV gets pretty darn hot in stop and go traffic when the temps get 85*+.

[SilvrT]

A good question deserves an honest answer. Show me a boxer with a service history, price it right for a bike with 200k and I'll absolutely ride off into the sunset on it.

 

You're a minority

 

Triumph Triple, same again. My Triple still had all the crosshatch on each cylinder at 80k, it looked like a pretty new engine inside.

 

Now you're talking apples and oranges

 

 

An air cooled twin is not designed with longevity or performance in mind, it's just not.

 

"longevity" and "performance" means different things to different people. Truth is, there are many air cooled V-twins running over 200k. What does performance mean to you?

 

at a long stop light in August you will still fry.

What's your actual experiance with this?

[BlueSky]

I guess those engineers of bike engines that are air cooled and use oil coolers just figured sticking an oil cooler on a bike makes it look cool ...

 

Ya, and those fins that are meant to disperse heat are nothing more than decorative extras ....

 

Oh, and how many of you are really gonna ride that many miles on your scoot? Crikey mate ... I wouldn't even put that many miles on my car!

 

And how many of you would buy a bike, any bike, that has over 200,000 miles on it and the engine has never been touched and expect to go riding off into the sunset worry free?

 

(just sayin yanno)

 

 

If you spend too much time sitting in stop and go traffic, an air cooled bike engine may not last one summer. An air cooled bike has limitations. If you are aware of those limitations and try to avoid those limitations, they will last a long time. When I ride my air cooled Kawasaki and I find myself sitting at a very long stop light, I turn the engine off so it won't get too hot. It starts instantly and this is not a problem with me. But we are not talking about a used $1200 bike. We are talking about an expensive latest design from Yamaha touring bike.

[CaseyJ955]

You're a minority

 

 

 

Now you're talking apples and oranges

 

 

 

 

"longevity" and "performance" means different things to different people.

 

What's your actual experiance with this?

 

Sorry, it was hard to quote this but i'll address each one.

 

Yes I'm a minority in many things vehicle related. I know that some of these bikes will surpass 200k without much trouble, I'm not actually on the market for one and would likely look for something under 100k. I bought my 1st gen with 70k on the clock and I'm not even a touch worried. Apples and Oranges, yup, thats true, but thats what we're doing here in comparing air and liquid cooling and known stout Euro bikes to air cooled twins. I will certainly agree it's apples and oranges, this would be more the point than a counter point. I'll keep my liquid cooled apples for sure. Buying a modern bike with air cooling would be a big step backwards, like buying a new Lexus with incandescent headlights and a points type distributor.

 

Longevity and Performance to me: Longevity to me means a bike that will not need rebuilding in 100k miles. It is a subjective term but I'm pretty sure anyone we ask would indicate that a bike with 175k on the clock has some longevity and a bike with blow by at 56k does not enjoy longevity. Performance is also subjective, to me it means that I can pass a row of RVs with my wife on the back and a load of our stuff in the trunk, in 105 degree weather and at 95 mph. Not sure about you but I dont spend one more moment beside a tractor/trailer than I have too. I'll spare you the description of how well my Softy (air cooled twin) went up the pass 2-up, but I can use words like "frustrating, slow, very hot, dramatic". In short Performance to me means it puts a smile on my face when I crack the throttle and will accelerate with authority fully loaded in any reasonable situation, without fuss or drama. Will maintain triple digit speeds easily. Will effortlessly blast away from tailgaters at highway speeds, 2-up and with authority. I'm not saying I would do these things but I might, and the bike needs to be up to the task if I choose to. Some bikes make me grin so hard my face hurts and others just leave me underwhelmed. Performance also means easy starts, good ridability at all RPMs and it should never feel like a sports car in Valet Mode.

 

My experience with this has been extensive exposure to air cooled narrow angle twins, mostly HD but some others. Of course experiences of those close to me as well. I have not ridden the new Yamaha so granted it could be a better design than HD, in fact I would bet on it, but it's still a very large engine with air cooling and just as water gets you wet, large air cooled twins emit copious amount of heat, especially when asked to push the weight of the Venture. It may not cook you 3 blocks from your house in the crisp morning air but your definitely going to feel it after you come off the highway fully loaded and have to sit at the offramp red light for 5 minutes in the summer heat

 

"Truth is, there are many air cooled V-twins running over 200k..." I'm sure there are a few, given ultimate conditions and very gentle riding style but this is absolutely not the norm. They are usually pretty clapped out at 100k if they even last that long. It's just as odd for an air cooled twin to give up 100k truoble free miles as it is for a V4 to not give you 100k trouble free miles.

 

I will say that to those that want the air cooled twin, more power (or not haha) to ya, enjoy! Life is full of options. I still know a few with the old twins. Its okay to ride whatever we want and also okay to debate pros and cons of engine design. I didn't mean to imply that the air cooled twin is a poor inferior design, not by any means. I really meant to just come right out and say it.

Lots of folks like these antiquated twins and I'll never know why still today but I think Yamaha is meeting market demand and a business should do that. I would be lying if I said that I didnt loose a ton of respect for Yamaha for using this obsolete tech in a new bike. I have been riding for 35 years and seen lots change in bike technology and it's been exciting. I know many of you have more than my 35 years and like different bikes for different reasons and it's all good, but the debate is nothing more than comparing notes, opinions and experiences of other folks passionate about motorcycles.

 

Please understand that this is not a personal attack and this response is with all due respect. We obviously dont agree on engine configurations but I think we can find common ground in the fact (not opinion) that motorcycling is an awesome state of mind and way of life.

[Freebird]

Originally Posted by CaseyJ955

at a long stop light in August you will still fry.

 

What's your actual experiance with this?

 

I can't answer to Casey's experience but I can tell you about my own. In 2013 I bought a brand new Harley Road Glide Ultra. I loved almost everything about that bike except for the heat. What Casey say's is my exact experience. I did everything I could to avoid getting caught in heavy traffic but sometimes it happens. It has happened on the Venture and yes, it can get uncomfortable, but on the Harley, it was almost unbearable. My inner thighs would get so hot as to actually be painful. When I was actually stopped in that traffic, I would often but trying to stand up to get away from that motor. It was much worse than being in traffic on the Venture. My wife felt it also but for her, even going down the highway was a bit uncomfortable. The heat on her right foot was so hot that she sometimes felt they were blistering. This was in spite of the fact that she was usually wearing leather boots. So all I can say is that I can honestly claim two years of personal experience and the heat was without a doubt much worse. It was bad enough that I took all the recommended steps to reduce the heat. Removed the catalytic converter, installed a Dyno Vision tuner to set it to the recommended fuel mixture, installed a more free flowing exhaust, etc. If any of those things helped at all, it was minimal.

 

Now please understand, I actually like the way that VTwins run. I love the low end torque and then gentle thump of those big pistons. I can tell you for a fact though, the heat can be an issue. Maybe Yamaha has done a better job with it in some manner or the other. That remains to be seen but I'm keeping an open mind about it.

 

 

 

[cowpuc]

Ask any Harley owner. I have about 800 miles of seat time on rented Harleys. I rented one in South Dakota and rode to Mt. Rushmore and surrounding areas putting over almost 300 miles on it that day. It was in the mid 90's....I got stuck in some nasty traffic in Rapid City.....sat in one spot for almost 30 minutes with the bike running. It was hot, but not unbearable. All of you guys are blowing this air cooled thing WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion.

 

I am probably wayyyyy off in my recall of that rental Randy but gotta ask,,, was that a Trike? Also,, was it one of the newer HD's with the watercooled exhaust valves? Also,, did you do most of that riding 2 up?

Reason I ask is that I know from experience that there is a huge difference between the heat affect on a trike and that of a two wheeler.. On a two wheeler it is necessary to put your feet down next to the engine to support the machine at a stop = placing thighs and legs very close to that hot engine and - for those with shorter inseams - this can be a horrible experience. A short inseamed friend of mine just traded in his 2012 Ultra Limited just barely brokin in for a water cooled "Low" of the same model for the reasons we are talking = getting burned is NOT fun!!

Remember that a trike is self supporting and the need to place your legs down with no where to hide them when your stuck in traffic is completely gone - and as a matter of fact - not even possible in some cases.

Another point has to do with the passenger. Tip and I have covered a fair amount of miles on a 1st Gen. The 1st Gen is a water cooled scoot with side covers over the engine. Even on this water cooled scoot - it is still necessary to keep the side covers on to keep Tip from getting uncomfortable in the heat if we are talking temps over 90. Given,, leather boots and leather chaps would probably make life somewhat liveable without the side covers but thats now how we roll. We prefer the freedom of jeans and tennis shoes. Another point to consider,, temps above 100 are not uncommon out in the desert regions where we prefer to ride. Pavement so hot that it will actually melt your shoes and frequently does remove rubber from the rear tire and place it on the saddlebags is very common. Its not uncommon to go into that region with a brand new tire on the back and have to put another one on after a couple thousand miles - that is not uncommon..

One time while traveling out yonder my daughter and I found ourselves in Needles California at temps well above 115 - closer to 120, similar to temps Tip - Tweeks and I found in Death Valley a couple years ago. A large group of air cooled V-Twin riders were gathered at the Denny's resturant in Needles where we stopped for lunch. After eating, a couple of the air cooled guys all but begged us to spend the rest of the day there with them in the air conditioned resturant because = thier words = experience had just showed them that our motorcycles would not make it 30 minutes out in that heat and we would be roasted by engine heat even if we did make it to Vegas. They watched thru the picture window as we pulled out..

We did just fine on that water cooled 1st Gen - running 80 across that up and down paved road that runs between those two arid land towns was a blast.. The only problem we had had to do with the helmet laws out there - even if your head is being fried inside of helmet shaped oven you dare not remove it for fear of a high dollar fine.. I didnt realize how bad my daughter had gotten in having her brain roasted until I felt her fall asleep (something not uncommon back then - just not during the middle of the day = normally she was always real talkative = Daddy look at that, daddy look at this) and lean against my back. Our only reprieve was a stop at a small casino for a cool off break.. Helmet wearing should be a thing of choice IMHO..

As far as the bike melting down as the air cooled guys had warned or us getting burned up like suggested - nahhhh..

Bottom line - there are many scenarios that come into play when considering touring - especially if it involves doing it 2 up..