Yamaha Part three

[Nightwind15]

No insult intended but why are credit cards being discussed on this thread?

 

Cluttering up the real topic here.

[snyper316]

No insult intended but why are credit cards being discussed on this thread?

 

Cluttering up the real topic here.

Because I said if this bike makes my jaw drop I will go for a loan on it...

 

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[bongobobny]

And besides that, it's not June 5th yet, and we are notorious for hijacking threads here!!

 

If you want to go the buy something, then take a couple of months to pay for it, there are a lot of Zero interest for an introductory period so you don't pay interest cards out there! I get one of those every year for major purchases that I can't pay off in a month, such as a $5,000 engine rebuild...

[snyper316]

Yeah the threads usually go thru 3-5 different things here... Any chance you all know where I put my windshield to tinker...😳

 

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[WildBill1]

Back to the original thread, l personally think Yamaha is introducing a Tricycle with reverse to compete with the Harley Freewheeler and the Polaris Slingshot.

[grubsie]

No insult intended but why are credit cards being discussed on this thread?

 

Just human nature. Kind of like rumors. Talk to the last person in the line and the story is totally different than the original.

 

Anyway, I find it fun to have something to look forward to. June 5th baby!

 

Twice as fun for me. New bike unveiling and my wife turns the big 60 on the same day.

[snyper316]

That would be wrong in so many ways....

 

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[Nightwind15]

I did not intend insulting anyone of course but I am hyper excited about the new Yamaha and will be selling my Raider, my Goldwing and my Stratoliner if this proves to be what it should be. The funny thing is I am a dealer but more so a motorcycle rider and have been since 1964. If you cut me I bleed Yamaha yellow and black (sorry Blue and White). At 67 this will likely be my last touring bike and I hope Yamaha has not let us all down again. There are truly so few true dealer enthusiast any more and that is a very sad thing.

Steve

[CaseyJ955]

I did not intend insulting anyone of course but I am hyper excited about the new Yamaha and will be selling my Raider, my Goldwing and my Stratoliner if this proves to be what it should be. The funny thing is I am a dealer but more so a motorcycle rider and have been since 1964. If you cut me I bleed Yamaha yellow and black (sorry Blue and White). At 67 this will likely be my last touring bike and I hope Yamaha has not let us all down again. There are truly so few true dealer enthusiast any more and that is a very sad thing.

Steve

 

Couldn't agree more Steve. There is quite a bit of uncertainty about this machine, and as a consumer I would really prefer updates through development of a new model for 3 reasons.

 

1. I just dont care for sales tactics and artificially building hype, it feels more like Yamaha is playing salesman-y games rather than ramping up genuine enthusiasm based on accurate projections of what kind of bike it may even be. Its going to be unveiled shortly and most of us have no idea if it will be a twin with 6 more HP than a HD or a fire breathing V4 with 6 more HP than a K1600. As an adult consumer I would prefer to be informed and develope realistic expectations as development is ongoing than be surprised and quite possibly disappointed.

 

2. The secrecy feels pretty gimmicky, suspense is fine when watching "Jeepers Creepers" but not when considering a new steed. I wont lie, im put off by Yamaha not sharing more (any) information with its customer base. See whine #1 . After all this hype if this bike is anything less than spectacular I will likely go back to Triumph for my next bike.

 

3. If I'm on or preparing to enter the market for a new bike I'm researching offerings outside Yamaha as well. There are currently some damn fine bikes on the market whether you want a twin cruiser/tourer or a full on touring rocketship. As a consumer I would appreciate at least enough information to make a decision on whether to wait for it or buy something else. If I knew we were getting the V4 I would likely wait, but if I wait for a grand epic Venture and they roll out the successor to the VTX I will not be a happy consumer and may never buy Yamaha after that if I have a bitter taste from this waiting game.

 

I know there is some overlap in my numerically itemized whinings but unrealistic expectations are sure to leave a percentage of us highly disappointed for the reasons above. If they make another twin thats great but dont keep us performance oriented riders hanging. All I can tell Yamaha is if this bike is a twin cruiser after hyping up a fantastic new Venture then thay have lost the chance to ever sell me a bike in the future. For you as a dealer waiting has to be at least a little frustrating, yes? If you love and sell bikes I would assume knowing the basics about whats coming would probably make it easier to guide your customers thinking about a new machine. It would have to be a benefit to the customer for the same reasons

 

I better take a breath and get some water

[baylensman]

I did not intend insulting anyone of course but I am hyper excited about the new Yamaha and will be selling my Raider, my Goldwing and my Stratoliner if this proves to be what it should be. The funny thing is I am a dealer but more so a motorcycle rider and have been since 1964. If you cut me I bleed Yamaha yellow and black (sorry Blue and White). At 67 this will likely be my last touring bike and I hope Yamaha has not let us all down again. There are truly so few true dealer enthusiast any more and that is a very sad thing.

Steve

 

 

i've got Yamaha tattooed on one check and FORD on the other. My first bike (non centrifugal clutch was a Yammie and so has been every bike since. Both my brothers are the same way until recently, when one bought a Harley. I really hope that this is even half the bike we've all talked about here for the past few years. Otherwise my retirement plans may include a different emblem on the gas tank!

[snyper316]

I did not intend insulting anyone of course but I am hyper excited about the new Yamaha and will be selling my Raider, my Goldwing and my Stratoliner if this proves to be what it should be. The funny thing is I am a dealer but more so a motorcycle rider and have been since 1964. If you cut me I bleed Yamaha yellow and black (sorry Blue and White). At 67 this will likely be my last touring bike and I hope Yamaha has not let us all down again. There are truly so few true dealer enthusiast any more and that is a very sad thing.

Steve

You didn't insult me..

 

When I said that would be wrong... Was reference to someone saying maybe its a trike... Now if they came out with that option well all I have to say is i hope the other manufacturers have a cushion because that would hurt!!!

 

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[snyper316]

I would love to see an actual triking option for the new Yamaha, Either front or back. I like the setup on Jay Lenos garage, However I am not to keen on the reverse trike. It does look like it would be a blast tho, and I could probably be talked into one. I honestly believe if Yamaha came out with a trike version of the tourer there would be so many people taken there TriWings and there Harley trikes back to get this. But I am probably way the heck out there now, But I have always loved Trikes. Never owned one but wouldn't mind it if it was a true 3 wheel Trike. I wanted to Trike my venture a couple years ago before I got the hang of it. Found out the only way to do that was make it a four wheeler.... No go I want a for real trike.... Now another wishful thinking is a gps that will wonder for you.... Of course when I had my Gps I would turn and it would show me the way out if I had a destination in it, But how about an interconnected system with reviews from other bikers for suggested routes. I maybe talking a little crazy but that is what happens when your out on the bike in the sun and get a stupid migraine and never got a chance to fully clear your head.... anyone want to add to this or try to figure out my ramblings because these voices in my head are confusing me:Avatars_Gee_George:

[turtle]

What brand oil would you use in it . lol

[snyper316]

What brand oil would you use in it . lol

 

Turtle Oil:stickpoke:

[Yammer Dan]

Or ridden either. When was the last time you had BS out?

 

Ya don't have ta remind me! "Ugly" is keeping her company. Both just need battery put in and a little tinkering.

[cowpuc]

No insult intended but why are credit cards being discussed on this thread?

 

Cluttering up the real topic here.

 

Because most of the lop eared varmints around this joint are made of the same kind of cowboy DNA as that which Willie is singing about in the attached song,,, they aint bad varmints - just a little high strung...

 

Hey Nightwind - you know George Boston up here in Muskegon Mi? Good friend of mine... Like you,, me and Yamaha go back a longgggggg ways too - pre YZ250 days.. MXed a 68 250 - home brew till Honda came out with the Elsi in 73 - then jumped ship and pretty much cleaned house until that dog gone Mono Shock YZ showed up..

Also had one of the 1st R1's Yamaha introduced into Michigan in 1967.. Turned some heads with the readers here on that comment - it was a 350 Twin folks - actually a YR1 but hey = R1 made ya do a double take didnt it!!

 

Had a bunch of Yams thru the years Nightwind and gotta tell ya,, I'm one of those ol has been's who really dont care if Mom Yam actually does this or not.. I HOPE she does and am extremely excited that we may actually get to FINALLY see it happen BUT,, fact is,, IMHO the MK1 Venture is and always will be the queen of my highway..

Puc

 

[snyper316]

I HOPE she does and am extremely excited that we may actually get to FINALLY see it happen BUT,, fact is,, IMHO the MK1 Venture is and always will be the queen of my highway..

Puc

 

 

You said it and AMEN!!!

[Yammer Dan]

1st Gens Rule!!

[gibvel]

Okay, back to topic, here is my 2 cents.

 

After watching all the videos, the only engine mentioned and/or touted was a V-Twin (in video 2 "As far as the V-Twin goes, this takes you to a whole different level, in terms of power. You just crack the throttle and, instantly, you know you have something there.").

 

And like someone mentioned earlier in the thread (about other features mentioned) they probably wouldn't bring them up if the didn't have them in the bike.

 

My guess is that the V-Twin is going to be the power plant.

[Freebird]

Well, as much as I hate it, I pretty much agree with you that it will be a VTwin. I have nothing against VTwins and I'm sure that a water cooled VTwin can be made to work very well but it just doesn't distinguish it from all the others out there. Harley, Indian, etc. If somebody wants a VTwin, there are a lot of options. A 1700 V4 from the VMax would make Yamaha stand out from the crowd.

 

In short, I don't think that we are going to see a new Venture. We are going to see some type of VTwin cruiser with updated technologies and I doubt it will be called or reference to the Venture at all.

[camos]

Okay, back to topic, here is my 2 cents.

 

"As far as the V-Twin goes, this takes you to a whole different level, in terms of power. You just crack the throttle and, instantly, you know you have something there.").

Not that it matters for the purpose of this discussion, but there is nothing inherent in the design of a V-twin that guarantees it will have lots of torque, assuming that is what you mean by power. For example the Virago has a V-twin that performs closer to the Venture than to the other V-twins.

 

[TABLE=width: 385]

[TR]

[TH=align: left]Make Model[/TH]

[TH=align: left]Yamaha XV 1100 Virago[/TH]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Max Power[/TD]

[TD]61.7 hp / 45.4 kW @ 6000 rpm[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Max Power Rear Tyre[/TD]

[TD]57.9 hp @ 6000 rpm[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Max Torque[/TD]

[TD]8.7 kgf-m / 85.3 Nm @ 3000 rpm[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

The red line is around 7500 rpm.

 

An inline engine can be designed to develop the same kind of torque commonly found in the other V-twins. The V engine configuration has a coolness factor that other engines does not have. Losing two cylinders has the advantage of allowing a larger displacement per cylinder without making the engine too wide to be practical on a motorcycle. Displacement also seems to have a coolness factor to many people.

 

A V-twin engine then has the possibility of being twice cool versus the poor old Venture V 4.

[CaseyJ955]

Well, as much as I hate it, I pretty much agree with you that it will be a VTwin. I have nothing against VTwins and I'm sure that a water cooled VTwin can be made to work very well but it just doesn't distinguish it from all the others out there. Harley, Indian, etc. If somebody wants a VTwin, there are a lot of options. A 1700 V4 from the VMax would make Yamaha stand out from the crowd.

 

In short, I don't think that we are going to see a new Venture. We are going to see some type of VTwin cruiser with updated technologies and I doubt it will be called or reference to the Venture at all.

 

This is dawning on me but its sort of hard to take. Being a Gen1 Vmax owner myself I have been fascinated, the first time I bacame aware of the Gen2 Vmax I knew that one day it would see a touring brethren with this big snorty V4. Nobody I know would say, "aww darn, a 1700cc EFI v4 with enough torque and power to move two touring bikes, I was actually hoping for more options in a twin cyl tourer.":hihi:

 

A twin can make good power and if we put a little more daylight between the jugs a loftier redline is possible. If they are thinking more Ducatti and less Harley it just might be worth looking at. I know what was in the video but It still makes no sense. This better be one stonkin' twin.

[BratmanXj]

A twin can make good power and if we put a little more daylight between the jugs a loftier redline is possible. If they are thinking more Ducatti and less Harley it just might be worth looking at. I know what was in the video but It still makes no sense. This better be one stonkin' twin.

 

But that is going against the American ideology by wanting a Duc type engine, even the 1300cc V4 is an oddball in the American touring market. The HD-Indian-Victory-Vulcan all have big torquey Vtwins, the Goldwing V6 has low end torque. People who want high-reving HP buy a sport-tourer like the FJR, not a full dresser. Any of my riding buddies I put on my Venture have no idea how I set the pace that I do, they shift at 3k rpm and lug down the motor because that's how "every other bike" does it. While I do like the nature of the V4 in our bikes we here are in the minority of the market and I can't see Yamaha chasing a small section of the market for us die-hards.

[snyper316]

Alot of people love the maxes and the first gens, I know Alot of ppl love the v4s but, the mileage on one.... I would like to see 50-60 on a full dresser...

 

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[XV1100SE]

Since we are all speculating on the engine and less on the options...shows what area we think is most important to a consumer familiar with touring and "real" touring bikes (like the Venture and the GoldWing)....

 

The Harley full bagger/trunk/fairing models (Electra Glide Ultra Classic, Road Glide Ultra, Ultra Limited, and Ultra Limited Low) are all comparable to the 2nd Gen Venture. They are all v-twins. They are all $30,000 plus and they do sell. They have the Milwaukee-Eight 107 motor (http://www.cycleworld.com/harley-davidson-motorcycles-new-milwaukee-eight-big-twin-engine)

 

Couple things of note :

Idle rpm has been cut from 1,000 to 850 rpm in the interest of “better sound and less heat.” A capable new alternator supplies 24 to 25 amps at that lower idle, with 50 percent more capacity available at highway rpm. “It will drive all the accessories,”

Twin-Cooled version with liquid-cooled cylinder heads and radiators will power Ultra Limited models, the Road Glide Ultra, and Tri Glide models.

CVO Limited and Street Glide models are equipped with the Twin-Cooled Milwaukee-Eight 114 featuring liquid-cooled cylinder heads and radiators.

From http://www.aimag.com/harley-davidson-launches-107-114-milwaukee-eight-engines/ :

Redline is 5,500 rpm, slightly higher than a Twin Cam. A single internal engine counter-balancer is tuned at 75%, and the engine is rubber-mounted for less overall vibration to the rider and passenger.

2017 Milwaukee-Eight Engine Specs:

Engine:

107″ 114″ TC 103 rubber mount

Cylinder angle:

45 degree 45 degree 45 degree

Bore:

3.937″ 4.01″ 3.875″

Stroke:

4.375″ 4.5″ 4.374″

Compression:

10:1 10.5:1 9.7:1

Valvetrain:

Four valves per cylinder Two valve per cylinder

Ignition:

Four plug four coil Two plug one coil

Torque:

114 ft-lb. @ 3250 / 124 ft-lb. @ 3250 / 104.7 ft-lb. @ 3250

Starter:

1.6 kw 1.6 kw 1.2 kw

Charging system:

24-25 amps / 24-25 amps / 17 amps

Fuel system:

ESPFI ESPFI ESPFI

Oil capacity:

4.5 quarts / 4.5 quarts / 4 quarts

Idle speed:

850 rpm / 850 rpm / 1050 rpm

From https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2016/08/25/2017-harley-davidson-milwaukee-eight-motors-11-fast-facts/ :

The Milwaukee-Eight motors have eight valves. Although retaining pushrods, the new Milwaukee-Eight powerplants now have four valves per cylinder. According to Harley-Davidson, the new motor has a 50-percent increase in flow over the Twin Cam motors they replace.

2. There are three flavors of the Harley-Davidson Milwaukee-Eight motor. The standard Milwaukee-Eight 107 features oil-cooled cylinder heads and a displacement of 107 cubic inches (1750cc). The Twin-Cooled Milwaukee-Eight 107 is the same displacement, but has liquid cooling for the heads. At the top of the line is the Twin-Cooled Milwaukee-Eight 114, which has liquid-cooled cylinder heads and displaces 114 cubes (1870cc). For the first year, the Milwaukee-Eight powerplants will be used exclusively in Touring and three-wheel models.

https://motorbikewriter.com/harley-davidson-launches-milwaukee-eight/

Harley-Davidson is increasing the size of its engines to 107 cubes (1745cc) and 114 cubes (1870cc) with four valves per cylinder.

Although Harley doesn’t provide power figures, US Environmental Protection Agency data shows the 1746cc engine produces 92.5hp (69kW) at 5000rpm, compared with the previous 1688cc Twin Cam’s EPA-rated 80.5hp (60kW) at 4000 rpm. The CVO 114-cube 1868cc engine is EPA-rated at 100.6hp (75kW) at 5000rpm compared with the current 1802cc engine’s 87.2hp (65kW) at 4000rpm.

 

Okay....so why the stats on Harley's? This is the bar that has been set. Yamaha has to match or exceed the competition if they expect to compete. Yes, the Harley's mentioned range in price from $28,400 to $32,000 (U.S.) and go up from there as you add paint options and other things. We expect Yamaha to compete with the Harley's and the Indians and other "real" touring bikes...but say that the price has to be in the low $20,0000's.

 

On the engine in Yamaha's touring bike....for comparison to any bike, it would have to be a v-twin in the 1700+ range. It would make sense to use the V-Max motor in a big touring bike. As with the 1st and 2nd gen Ventures, it made sense to use an already developed motor in more than one model. Other option is the three or five cylinder motors that Yamaha has been developing.

 

We'll know in a few weeks.