RON & MON numbers?

[baylensman]

Every bike i've ever owned, i've been told. run the cheapest gas you can DO NOT USE PREMIUM. Well that advice has served me well over the years. i buy regular or even economy at the few places that still sell it. I remember a discussion here about octane ratings. The consensus seemed to be be the same. low octane with the lowest ethanol as possible.

 

Now my lincoln requires premium it says so right on the filler flap and the fuel gauge in the dash. Two weeks back I pulled up to the pump and filled the lincoln. The next afternoon I pulled up on the on the bike to the same pump and filled the bike with Premium, just like i did the lincoln. I realized my mistake when i looked at the toral on the pump! Well I expected the bike to start to bog out and carbon up in a few days, It hasn't so far. Also the fuel gauge shows me with just i bar over 1/2 a tank 110 mile in! Now I know the gauge can drop like a stone but i've never seen that sign a figure on a half tank. So i'm thinking the Premium is helping. I also found the file sticker and it recommends 91 octane not 89 like my other yamaha.

 

So are there different "Build" on these bikes other than the CARB build for california? will Premium hurt it for just one tank? Does any one else run premium on a regular basis?

[MiCarl]

The only thing using too high of octane will harm is your wallet. It won't harm the engine.

 

Not 100% sure on the RSV but Yamaha typically specifies RON (Research Octane Number). Pumps in North America are labeled in PON (Pump Octane Number). I've read that if you take RON - 5 you get a reasonable value for PON. So 91-5 = 86. Around here regular is generally 87 octane.

 

Your Lincoln will specify PON. I know my wife's Lincoln specifies 89 octane, which of course isn't available around here. It goes 87, 91, 93 in this area. The Lincoln operates just fine on 87, it retards the timing to prevent pre-ignition. Problem is the fuel mileage drops enough it costs just as much per mile as putting in the 91. So we use the 91, at least we have to stop less.

 

I can see where under certain conditions you might get a little better MPG from the higher octane. Might not be worth the extra $$ though.

[BlueSky]

These bikes do not have sophisticated computers with a zillion sensors that allow the ignition advance to be continualy adjusted for conditions. If it is tuned for 87 it should run better on 87 than on 91 but I doubt you would ever notice a difference. But I suspect the ignition advance curve on these bikes is not that precise. That is one thing that is appealing with the ignitek. Ignition advance is programmable to a certain extent and it may be possible to get more hp and/or gas mileage with a little tuning.

[CaseyJ955]

I run 91 because everything else has ethanol, when I see 87 without ethanol that is my first choice. At 110 miles I'm on the last bar but I'm chasing an MPG issue that probably has nothing to do with gasoline grades.

[MiCarl]

I run 91 because everything else has ethanol, when I see 87 without ethanol that is my first choice. At 110 miles I'm on the last bar but I'm chasing an MPG issue that probably has nothing to do with gasoline grades.

 

That's a good point. If he got hold of ethanol free fuel that will make a difference in MPG.

[CaseyJ955]

That's a good point. If he got hold of ethanol free fuel that will make a difference in MPG.

 

Ethanol is garbage. It has less energy than pure gasoline so with fuel not tainted with ethanol you will see better MPG and performance. Of course assuming a vehicle is not specifically tuned to run on ethanol. EFI vehicles seem to be able to digest it but carbs dont seem to like it one bit.

 

I have an early Lexus LS400 that requires 91+ and thats what I run, and it loves it, if I try and cheap out I can feel the difference. If a car only requires 87 then 91 is nothing but a waste of money (unless it's the only way to escape ethanol). I would be quite happy if I could find 87 oct pure gasoline, few things would make me happier.

[snyper316]

This has got me very curious, that was another thing I had changed because I knew I would be running the fuel right thru, I put in the cheaper gas in Republic, and rode home and stopped at The gas station here in town and reupped to check mileage. Nah can't be wouldn't make any sense putting 87 octane in and getting the 40mpg..... But it has got some wheels turning in my head and smoke coming from my ears!!

[bongobobny]

Piggybacking on Micarl, in the past, mostly with cars, I have found I sometimes got a little better average MPG going from 87 octane to 89 octane, but when you did the math for money per mile, it was always more expensive regardless of the one or two MPG. I may or may not have noticed any difference in throttle response going from the two. On my 1st gen, running higher octane eliminated spark ping under a load such a going up a hill towing a trailer, etc, but with my 2nd gen there is no noticeable difference in performance.

 

A long long time ago there was some truth to actually doing some damage to an engine using higher than needed octane, but that has been long since eliminated...

[MiCarl]

On my 1st gen, running higher octane eliminated spark ping under a load such a going up a hill towing a trailer, etc

 

Which is the sole purpose of higher octane.

 

On the 1st Gen motorcycles there is that vacuum line to the TCI. The TCI is supposed to watch that and retard the timing under heavy load to keep it from detonating (spark ping, knock). Perhaps yours was malfunctioning or was just never up to the task of dealing with the load of the trailer and hills.

 

On the 2nd Gen Yamaha used a Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) instead of a vacuum sensor. Presumably a better way to evaluate load and the computerized ignition likely does a better job managing the timing.

 

Modern automobile engines have knock sensors (in addition to all the other sensors). If the computer detects knock it'll retard the timing until the knock stops. This is why my wife's Lincoln can have label stating "89 octane min. recommended", instead of required. While the engine is designed for 89 octane the computer can retard the timing to where the 87 doesn't cause damage.

[baylensman]

OKAY HERE GOES!

I did a lot of research on OCTANE and ETHANOL yesterday. By law ALL gasoline in the US contains ETHANOL even premium fuels. The exceptions are fuels labeled and sold as OFF ROAD USE only (farms, marinas with out vehicle fuel station and airports) Two states Missouri and Wisconsin I believe have specifically written laws that allow the sale of ETHANOL free gasoline but at a much higher price.Some fuel providers have a separate pump for Ethanol free gas but, the price per gallon includes a mandated FINE for usage.

In Canada its even more convoluted Each province has its own laws and labeling requirements. Fuel there sold across borders must contain ethanol.

 

With the loss of the Tetra-Ethly lead as a knock inhibitor most refineries have added ethanol since the mid 70's to premium blends to up the octane numbers long before the "fuel" crisis.

 

Octane numbers are backwards, the lower the number the more likely the fuel air mixture is to explode under pressure? so 86-89 burns quicker and hotter than 91-94 octane.(straight gasoline without additives was sold as a cleaning solutions the mid 1800's and was responsible for many spontaneous fires, due to its extremely low ignition point)

The use of premium FUEL ONLY is to slow down the burn on higher compression and performance engines, so that at lower RPMS the engines aren't as efficient but at the higher revs where thee motors live they make better power.

 

Now use of Ethanol reduces the force per unit volume of the fuel (Octane is not a power rating neither is Cetane) that is why Alcohol powered cars have larger fuel lines and bigger fuel pumps!

 

Research by an at the pump testing agency (you can find on line) shows that on average across Florida where I live regular gas contains on average 7% ethanol while premiums run around 5%. So premium does have less of the power robbing ethanol.

 

In the case of my bike,as long as it does no harm to the engine, the difference in price per mile driven may show that regular is the better choice in a straight dollar world, however if I do get and extra 30-50 miles per tank now. the additional $1.00 per fill up offsets the hassle of times per month I fill up.

[baylensman]

The only thing using too high of octane will harm is your wallet. It won't harm the engine.

 

Not 100% sure on the RSV but Yamaha typically specifies RON (Research Octane Number). Pumps in North America are labeled in PON (Pump Octane Number). I've read that if you take RON - 5 you get a reasonable value for PON. So 91-5 = 86. Around here regular is generally 87 octane.

 

Your Lincoln will specify PON. I know my wife's Lincoln specifies 89 octane, which of course isn't available around here. It goes 87, 91, 93 in this area. The Lincoln operates just fine on 87, it retards the timing to prevent pre-ignition. Problem is the fuel mileage drops enough it costs just as much per mile as putting in the 91. So we use the 91, at least we have to stop less.

 

I can see where under certain conditions you might get a little better MPG from the higher octane. Might not be worth the extra $$ though.

 

 

I think the 89 Lincolns mark7 and Continentals ran the 5.0 HO motors where as my 96 mark8 uses the 4.6 liter 4 cam Cobra motor (less the steel crank)

[Freebird]

OKAY HERE GOES!

I did a lot of research on OCTANE and ETHANOL yesterday. By law ALL gasoline in the US contains ETHANOL even premium fuels. The exceptions are fuels labeled and sold as OFF ROAD USE only (farms, marinas with out vehicle fuel station and airports) Two states Missouri and Wisconsin I believe have specifically written laws that allow the sale of ETHANOL free gasoline but at a much higher price.Some fuel providers have a separate pump for Ethanol free gas but, the price per gallon includes a mandated FINE for usage.

In Canada its even more convoluted Each province has its own laws and labeling requirements. Fuel there sold across borders must contain ethanol.

 

 

I haven't done the research that you have but at this time, I don't think it is true that all gas sold in the US contains ethanol. Around my area, that seems to be true but in my travels, I see stations that boldly advertise some non-ethanol gas. I was in Youngstown, OH a couple weeks ago and stopped for gas at a station just of Interstate 80. They had huge banners advertising their premium gas was ethanol free. Not sure but I THINK it was a Sunoco station.

[Freebird]

Here is a link to one of several articles that I found. Only 7 states require ethanol blends. Maine is the only state that has actually gone as far as banning ethanol blended gasoline.

 

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2015/07/16/which-states-require-ethanol-in-your-fuel-fewer-than-you-might-think/

[CaseyJ955]

Here is a link to one of several articles that I found. Only 7 states require ethanol blends. Maine is the only state that has actually gone as far as banning ethanol blended gasoline.

 

Thats awesome! I would love to be able to buy whatever grade I want without pumping that garbage into my vehicles. It's not enough to make up for over 40 ppl/sq mi but it sure does make Maine look pretty darn good.

[snyper316]

Thats awesome! I would love to be able to buy whatever grade I want without pumping that garbage into my vehicles. It's not enough to make up for over 40 ppl/sq mi but it sure does make Maine look pretty darn good.

 

Interesting, they have some trying to do that here. Meet opposition everytime ppl that claim it will hurt farmers... I am not buying it..

 

"Never ride faster then your guardian angel can fly."

[baylensman]

Many of the internet articles that pop up on this topic from standard search engine are older, even articles 2 to 3 years old are quoting information that is 5 to 7 years old. Here are just a few of the quote from more recent articles. The most recent reading I've found about the RFS is that someone in the TRUMP administration casually mentioned repeal of the Ethanol mandate, the immediate reaction from the other side was explosive threats . So who knows what the next year of Presidential orders and congressional mandates will bring. The other thing to consider is what we are talking about, E10 fuel or what we think of when we talk about ethanol is a recent addition to the mix, it is a politically sensitive issue to assuage corn farmers and the amount of federal subsidies. In actual fact most refineries (90% of the worlds gasoline is refined in the US) have added Ethanol to there fuel mix for over 30 years for various reasons. So the Ethanol free gasoline being sold is not Ethanol free it just is not as high as those mandated in various states to 10%

 

US FEDERAL MANDATE. The RFS requires renewable fuel to be blended into transportation fuel in increasing amounts each year, escalating to 36 billion gallons by 2022. Each renewable fuel category in the RFS program must emit lower levels of greenhouse gases (GHGs) relative to the petroleum fuel it replaces.

 

[h=2]Fuel Properties[/h]Ethanol (CH3CH2OH) is a clear, colorless liquid. It is also known as ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol, and EtOH (see Fuel Properties search.) Ethanol has the same chemical formula regardless of whether it is produced from starch- and sugar-based feedstocks, such as corn grain (as it primarily is in the United States), sugar cane (as it primarily is in Brazil), or from cellulosic feedstocks (such as wood chips or crop residues).

Ethanol has a higher octane number than gasoline, providing premium blending properties. Minimum octane number requirements prevent engine knocking and ensure drivability. Low-octane gasoline is blended with 10% ethanol to attain the standard 87 octane.

Ethanol contains less energy per gallon than gasoline, to varying degrees, depending on the volume percentage of ethanol in the blend. Denatured ethanol (98% ethanol) contains about 30% less energy than gasoline per gallon. Ethanol’s impact on fuel economy is dependent on the ethanol content in the fuel.

 

Over 75 percent of America's gasoline now(2009) includes some amount of ethanol.

Source: American Petroleum Institute (API)

http://www.api.org/Newsroom/cavaney-renewable.cfm and others

Ethanol production and use is going to keep growing in the years ahead, until better forms of alternative fuels and vehicles become readily available in the U.S. market.

[MikeWa]

Higher octane fuel burns slower. The higher the octane number the slower the burn and the less apt to detonate. If you use high octane fuel in an engine designed for faster burning regular fuel you may not get complete combustion. In other words you may be wasting fuel. if you use faster burning regular fuel in an engine designed for high octane fuel you may get pre ignition or spark knock. Which can damage the engine.

 

Many newer engines have knock sensors. So many of these vehicles can adjust to the available fuel. My Lincoln Navigator requires premium but I use regular fuel without issues. This works because the computer and knock sensors adjust for the fuel. However if I was towing a heavy load I would opt for the slower burning premium fuel.

 

Mike

[baylensman]

So quick update. at 111 miles i still showed 1/2 tank by the gauge, at 130 miles the gauge showed 1/4 tank and the fuel light came on. at 132 miles the bike started to bog and i switched to reserve. at 135 miles i put in 4.58 gallons to fit the tank.