Blown new fork seal, fresh rebuild, metal shavings.

[CaseyJ955]

Ok, I got done whining about a blown fork seal and reaching for a solution that didnt involve pulling the fork back apart so soon after fully rebuilding it with new OEM bushings, seals and dust covers. Left side is good as gold, no trouble. Right side was blown and leaking quite badly.

 

So it comes apart as it normally would, I bump the fork lower off and empty the guts out, everything looks ok. The bushings look good but I found metal filings around that heavy beveled washer that sits right under the seal, The OD of that heavy washer is where the shavings seem to be concentrated. I believe it was all in the correct position. I did also notice a few fine sparklies in the fork oil as it drained, really hard to notice but it was present. The ID of the fork lower looks smooth.

 

So I'm guessing the metal filings caused the seal to fail even though it looks fine. Does anyone have any idea where my misstep was? I'm sort of stuck and I cant see where I went wrong.

 

Thanks folks.

 

EDIT

I just watched a youtube video and it looks like that beveled washer (the heavy one that goes on right before the bushings) is supposed to be a flat washer, I cant see it well enough to be sure.

 

The heavy washer I'm refering to is called a "seal spacer" item #2 on page 231 of the electronic manual

Edited April 22, 2017 by CaseyJ955

[CaseyJ955]

Disassembled, could see no problem or reason for the metal filings. There was quite a burr along the OD of the seal spacer and at the upper ID it was pretty rough so I smoothed it up with a dremel and 120 grit, very careful reassembly with new OEM seal. A 50 mile ride, problem solved. The love affair with the bike is back on but still have some tweaking to do.

[jtee1340]

Hi Casey,

I had the same issue with my spacer on my 92 forks. It was beveled like you described. I asked about that on the other Venture Forum and was told it should be flat.

I had put the forks back together before I got the answer back. Oh well. See the picture of what mine looked like and the answer I got back about what it should look like.

Glad to hear you got yours straightened out.

J.T.

[CaseyJ955]

Hi Casey,

I had the same issue with my spacer on my 92 forks. It was beveled like you described. I asked about that on the other Venture Forum and was told it should be flat.

I had put the forks back together before I got the answer back. Oh well. See the picture of what mine looked like and the answer I got back about what it should look like.

Glad to hear you got yours straightened out.

J.T.

 

 

 

So it IS supposed to be flat!!!! well dayum! I would have pressed it in the vice but I wasnt sure. I went so far as to bring it the dealer when I picked up my new seal and I stepped into the service dept (these guys are really cool) and showed the seal and spacer to a tech, he said he figured it would be ok but even he couldnt tell me for sure if it was supposed to be flat, although he suspected it probably should be. He looked it up on a fiche and was not really able to see for sure in the pic, the parts dept didnt have one to compare it with. I really had nothing to go with so I got it home and smoothed out the sharp OD and the part of the ID at the top, put her together and around 70 miles on it so far and no more leak. I think the sharp edges were somehow contacting something and created the metal filings, but dayum if I can see from where.

 

I ask myself how it could get warped like that and all I can come up with is at some point someone trying to slam the fork lower off without removing the seal clip first, but it's a thick washer and one would have to slam it pretty hard to cup it like that. Both mine were like that and the one on the other side presents no problem yet. I'm glad you posted these pics, now I know, and others with the same question will hopefully see this and know as well.

[skydoc_17]

Hey Casey,

As you have figured out by now, that washer is supposed to be flat. The reason that the spacer is NOT flat is because the stock fork spring has lost it's tension, and the spring is slamming the fork spring spacer tube into the bottom of the washer every time the forks bottom out. Fortunately, the springs can be changed out without removing the front forks again. Progressive makes an excellent set of fork springs for our bikes. Here's my link, but you are welcome to shop around for pricing.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/photopost/showproduct.php?product=188&title=first-gen-1983-1993-progressive-fork-springs&cat=17

 

Not replacing the fork springs will greatly reduce the life of the new seals. If you plan to sell this bike in the near future this may not be an issue, if you plan to keep the old girl, then I would look into those springs.

Earl

[CaseyJ955]

Hey Casey,

As you have figured out by now, that washer is supposed to be flat. The reason that the spacer is NOT flat is because the stock fork spring has lost it's tension, and the spring is slamming the fork spring spacer tube into the bottom of the washer every time the forks bottom out. Fortunately, the springs can be changed out without removing the front forks again. Progressive makes an excellent set of fork springs for our bikes. Here's my link, but you are welcome to shop around for pricing.

 

 

Not replacing the fork springs will greatly reduce the life of the new seals. If you plan to sell this bike in the near future this may not be an issue, if you plan to keep the old girl, then I would look into those springs.

Earl

 

Earl, thanks for the response and the explanation, it makes a little more sense than my theory of aggressive fork lower removal. When I brought the bike home I rode 300 miles, much of it in treacherous crosswinds along the I-90 and torrential downpour limiting visibility to near 0. By the time I got home I already had a shopping list including new head bearings, progressives, OEM bushings, seals and covers. I did all that over the winter and my first ride last week saw the brand new seal blown and all the metal shavings. One thing I didnt know is that when I ordered the progressives to get ready for the build is that it already had progressives in it. I put the new ones in anyway. They were so fantastic on my Vmax that I knew it would be the first thing I did to the Venture. The ride quality is truly too dang nice for words and I would encourage anyone that has the stockers to strongly consider the Progressives.

 

I run 0 air, synthetic import ATF as fork oil and left the anti-dives intact and it glides quite pleasantly.

[skydoc_17]

Hey Casey,

Thanks for the kind words. I later picked up on the fact that you had installed Progressives from another thread you had posted in. Those spacing washers are not hardened, and I would bet that the shavings you found in the fork oil were from the spacer. The fork tube is "hard chromed" and ground, and the up and down motion basically reamed the I.D. of the spacing washer out, causing the burr you found. Sounds like you have a really nice Venture there. If you happen to need any color matched 89'VR body parts, I have a few here.

Good luck on your next ride,

Earl

[CaseyJ955]

Hey Casey,

Thanks for the kind words. I later picked up on the fact that you had installed Progressives from another thread you had posted in. Those spacing washers are not hardened, and I would bet that the shavings you found in the fork oil were from the spacer. The fork tube is "hard chromed" and ground, and the up and down motion basically reamed the I.D. of the spacing washer out, causing the burr you found. Sounds like you have a really nice Venture there. If you happen to need any color matched 89'VR body parts, I have a few here.

Good luck on your next ride,

Earl

 

Thanks Earl. So far so good but I'm glad to know who has the goods if I need them. About all thats left now is sorting out why I cant seem to break 30mpg.

[skydoc_17]

Hey Casey,

Have a look at this link if you are looking for better fuel economy as opposed to horse power:

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/photopost/showproduct.php?product=202&title=first-gen-1983-to-1993-vr-needle-shim-mod-kit&cat=17

 

Also have a look at this link for ALL of the offerings I have for the First Gens:

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/photopost/showcat.php?cat=500&ppuser=4738

 

You might find a few useful items in the postings I have in the Member Vendor Classifieds.

The Venture isn't a VMAX, but it WILL raise your hair a bit, and is a lot more comfortable!

Earl

[CaseyJ955]

I'm looking through that. It's running quite well, it pulls pretty well from the basement on up. I was hoping to get around 40-ish but I cant seem to even get over 30. I suspect there is an issue that I'm missing causing the poor MPG. With 70k on the clock I guess the emulsion tubes could be worn but a close inspection of them and they appear perfect, not even the slightest oblonging of the port. No shims in the needles, I think the air filter is alright but I ordered a K&N just to rule that out. I live on a dusty road so it makes sense anyway. I do have an Ignitek so maybe I should do some checking and make sure I have the right map and parameters set.

 

Today I hit 110 miles and I was well into the last bar on the fuel gauge, filled up and calculated 28.x mpg

 

I'm going to go check out that thread.

[snyper316]

Hey Casey,

Have a look at this link if you are looking for better fuel economy as opposed to horse power:

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/photopost/showproduct.php?product=202&title=first-gen-1983-to-1993-vr-needle-shim-mod-kit&cat=17

 

Also have a look at this link for ALL of the offerings I have for the First Gens:

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/photopost/showcat.php?cat=500&ppuser=4738

 

You might find a few useful items in the postings I have in the Member Vendor Classifieds.

The Venture isn't a VMAX, but it WILL raise your hair a bit, and is a lot more comfortable!

Earl

 

Hey Earl got a question for you. Your pictures do not show the little washers all my carbs have on them. I have 12 Ok so I take that back 11 have the washer, I discovered one missing last night on my carbs on the bike. Would I use the shims with the little washers I have in my bike?

[videoarizona]

I'm looking through that. It's running quite well, it pulls pretty well from the basement on up. I was hoping to get around 40-ish but I cant seem to even get over 30. I suspect there is an issue that I'm missing causing the poor MPG. With 70k on the clock I guess the emulsion tubes could be worn but a close inspection of them and they appear perfect, not even the slightest oblonging of the port. No shims in the needles, I think the air filter is alright but I ordered a K&N just to rule that out. I live on a dusty road so it makes sense anyway. I do have an Ignitek so maybe I should do some checking and make sure I have the right map and parameters set.

 

Today I hit 110 miles and I was well into the last bar on the fuel gauge, filled up and calculated 28.x mpg

 

I'm going to go check out that thread.

 

Boy that really isn't right. You should be getting between 38-42!

The biggest problem in my 89 as far as mpgs are concerned... Is me. I love cranking the throttle!

That said... Check brakes for dragging, your after market igniter, wires and caps, plugs, carb vacuum leaks, diaphram issues. With the exception of your igniter,(mine is stock), that is the order I use.

Also, I've found mine loves a dose of Seafoam about every other tank. Crap gas, I guess.

Good luck.... Let me know if I can help...

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by videoarizona
Add pic

[CaseyJ955]

Hey Casey,

Have a look at this link if you are looking for better fuel economy as opposed to horse power:

 

You might find a few useful items in the postings I have in the Member Vendor Classifieds.

The Venture isn't a VMAX, but it WILL raise your hair a bit, and is a lot more comfortable!

Earl

 

Thanks, I had a look at those. I was wondering about the needles. For some reason I thought you could only shim them out to make it richer. I was unaware of shimming them inward, never thought of it. I bought a shim kit for the Vmax and ended up not using any of the shims, turns out the best position for go-to-jail acceleration was 2nd clip. I think I'll dig in and see how to shim them inward. I'm above 3000' and my rides often get me over 6000' so I could stand to lean it out, I'll bet I will pick up a little performance by leaning it out.

 

Boy that really isn't right. You should be getting between 38-42!

The biggest problem in my 89 as far as mpgs are concerned... Is me. I love cranking the throttle!

That said... Check brakes for dragging, your after market igniter, wires and caps, plugs, carb vacuum leaks, diaphram issues. With the exception of your igniter,(mine is stock), that is the order I use.

Also, I've found mine loves a dose of Seafoam about every other tank. Crap gas, I guess.

Good luck.... Let me know if I can help...

 

Thanks and thats a fantastic looking machine, and weather! I made up some COPs so no plug wires or caps, brand new diaphragms installed and float levels set at 1.125" dry. no detectable vac leaks, brand new plugs gapped at .032". Brakes are fresh front and back. I thought the rear might be dragging a little but the rotor stays cool after highway rides. I dropped in several oz of Seafoam before the ride today but I just had the carbs apart. Figure it wont hurt to run some through anyway. It's running quite well.. I have a K&N coming and I'll see how I can move the needles in a little, my guess is that will help. If none of this helps I'll go into the Ignitek program and see whats there but as well as it runs I'm definitely leaning towards just getting to much fuel. I've got a few days of rain, I'll check the plugs and see what they look like this coming week.

 

Thank you guys for all the help!

[Flyinfool]

Putting in the K&N filter will lean it out, many have had to go back to a stock filter because the K&N was to lean. These bikes are very sensitive to any changes on the intake side.

[videoarizona]

Casey, you have done everything right. Cool!!

Leaves only the igniter and the carbs. Bring those needless back to stock and run another tank through. Check mpgs. If that isn't the problem then then igniter is.

Suggest you don't put the k&n filter on yet. I have the k&n on... And it does change things as i found when I didn't follow the cleaning directions properly. I hurried the process. I may go back to stock. I run from 1300' to over 7000' with my bikes. My home territory runs from 3000' to 5000'. The CV carbs do a great job in compensating for altitude so I leave everything stock.

 

Suggest after you put needless back to stock, test, then put igniter to stock (as close as you can) and test again. Then put filter on and test.

 

Lots of testing miles ahead for you.... Lucky guy!!

Grins!

[CaseyJ955]

Putting in the K&N filter will lean it out, many have had to go back to a stock filter because the K&N was to lean. These bikes are very sensitive to any changes on the intake side.

 

Free flowing intakes seem to play hell on CV carbs, I know your 100% correct. When I added a custom filter top airbox to the Vmax I had to put little brass jetted restrictor plugs into one of the small top ports to compensate. I realized the Venture was no different when I fired it up w/o the airbox in place to observe the action of the slides. The factory paper filter looks okay but maybe it's still dusted up. I like K&N mostly because I live on a dusty dirt road about 3 miles long and I have to flush/oil filters at least a couple times a year. Besides I found a used on on Ebay for $22 shipped, so I can remove that from the equation. Honestly I have never noticed any performance or MPG gains from a drop-in K&N on any vehicle aside from possible slight gain in WOT but in the case of these bikes where the intake restriction is notable to begin with and part of the design/tuning it may be different. I'm carrying over Vmax experience and I'm not sure where the cutoff is and where things will be different with the Venture. Once I had the Vmax leaned out and able to breathe the HP and MPG gains were significant and I found the V4 likes to be on the lean side of things. Someone that knows a bit more than I told me that in the case of the Vmax, if it's lean enough to hurt the engine it will not run correctly. There is a narrow window of having the mixture correct from the mains down and when your in that window the performance is awesome, and MPG is really nice too.

 

So I'm at that place where I'm rulling out any defect with the bike causing inferior MPG and maybe just moving onto fine tuning. I think my plan of attack is to go with the K&N to lean it out a little and learn more about moving the needle in a half a clip. I think those two things should make quite a difference. My Yamaha V4 experience tells me that if it's for decent MPG that the performance should sort of go hand and hand with that.

[CaseyJ955]

Casey, you have done everything right. Cool!!

Leaves only the igniter and the carbs. Bring those needless back to stock and run another tank through. Check mpgs. If that isn't the problem then then igniter is.

Suggest you don't put the k&n filter on yet. I have the k&n on... And it does change things as i found when I didn't follow the cleaning directions properly. I hurried the process. I may go back to stock. I run from 1300' to over 7000' with my bikes. My home territory runs from 3000' to 5000'. The CV carbs do a great job in compensating for altitude so I leave everything stock.

 

Suggest after you put needless back to stock, test, then put igniter to stock (as close as you can) and test again. Then put filter on and test.

 

Lots of testing miles ahead for you.... Lucky guy!!

Grins!

 

Thanks!

 

It was a long process on the Vmax and I'm not expecting the Venture to let me off easy. As far as I know the needles are in the stock position. There are no shims and they are as far in as they can get. This is why I'm not clear on how to move them further in without altering or replacing the white cog that sits between the end of the slide and the needle clip.

 

If I put the TCI back to stock the cops might cook it, they are resistorless, which the Ignitek can handle but I guess the OEM TCI could be damaged by the extra current drawn from lower primary resistance of the stick coils.

 

I know the map that was done for the Ignitek was tailored for the Venture and I changed nothing other than adding a rev limit and dialing in the MAP sensor. So if the filter and needles dont get me up to the 40 mpg club I'll focus on the Ignitek. I would have left the stock TCI alone had I not planned on running unadulterated COPs and eventually using it to control Vboost.

 

One thing I forgot to mention is that the poor MPG condition existed when I got the bike, before any other mods were done, I was in the 24-25 tops neighborhood so the mods did improve things to the tune of around 5mpg.

Edited April 24, 2017 by CaseyJ955

[snyper316]

@CaseyJ955 I went to Springfield and back on hwy 60 it has 60-65 mph speed limit with rolling hills and 10-15mph hour breeze to the northeast. I finally got 40mpg, but I only hit 70mph tops mainly stayed between 60 and 65mph. Hope that helps lol I know it isn't what you want to hear... So I guess if I want to stretch the fuel economy I will sit back and take in the fresh air and enjoy the scenery.

 

"Never ride faster then your guardian angel can fly."

[CaseyJ955]

I went to Springfield and back on hwy 60 it has 60-65 mph speed limit with rolling hills and 10-15mph hour breeze to the northeast. I finally got 40mpg, but I only hit 70mph tops mainly stayed between 60 and 65mph. Hope that helps lol I know it isn't what you want to hear... So I guess if I want to stretch the fuel economy I will sit back and take in the fresh air and enjoy the scenery.

 

"Never ride faster then your guardian angel can fly."

 

That is what I want to hear, first that your getting good MPG and then that you had an awesome ride again, and of course what riding style you use to get that MPG. I tried to do 65-70 going to Hermosa then through Custer. I found I was doing 65 through some 45 mpg corners and didn't even realize it. I did set the cruise at 70 and this is the first time cruise worked as it should.

 

I think with the increased speed not only is there wind resistance and the significant amount of HP it takes to keep a massive bike rolling at that speed (guess what that does to rear tires too) but with the increased revs and load lift the needles, so here come the main jets and needles dumping more fuel in. I went out on the super slab but I doubled back through Custer, Hill City, Keystone, Mt Rushmore area then 385/44 back home, the last half I was very grandfatherly with the loud handle and it chewed through that last half tank just as fast as 75mpg went through the first couple bars. I expect my riding style isnt helping a great deal but even when I'm gentle and 45-65 it still eats up bars on the gas gauge, it's almost as if it doesnt matter what I do. I'm thrilled to have all the other issues worked out on the bike and this is the only thing left so I'm grateful for that.

[snyper316]

That is what I want to hear, first that your getting good MPG and then that you had an awesome ride again, and of course what riding style you use to get that MPG. I tried to do 65-70 going to Hermosa then through Custer. I found I was doing 65 through some 45 mpg corners and didn't even realize it. I did set the cruise at 70 and this is the first time cruise worked as it should.

 

I think with the increased speed not only is there wind resistance and the significant amount of HP it takes to keep a massive bike rolling at that speed (guess what that does to rear tires too) but with the increased revs and load lift the needles, so here come the main jets and needles dumping more fuel in. I went out on the super slab but I doubled back through Custer, Hill City, Keystone, Mt Rushmore area then 385/44 back home, the last half I was very grandfatherly with the loud handle and it chewed through that last half tank just as fast as 75mpg went through the first couple bars. I expect my riding style isnt helping a great deal but even when I'm gentle and 45-65 it still eats up bars on the gas gauge, it's almost as if it doesnt matter what I do. I'm thrilled to have all the other issues worked out on the bike and this is the only thing left so I'm grateful for that.

 

Yep most your fuel is going out the exaust maybe.... Lol I have a habit of not riding like that, But today I did. I was in no hurry heck I didn't even know where I was going. I just let tinker lead the way, Now this may sound a little strange tho, I would get to around 70-75 and would feel a bit of wobble. I am not sure if this was in the road, maybe I have something out of alignment when I put the tires back on. But I did have wind blowing at my side and the road this happend on was asphalt. But was noticeable on a concrete stretch with those grooves/lines at around 60. Do I need the Washer smashed between the brake holder and the swing arm? If so that is more then likely my problem.

[CaseyJ955]

Yep most your fuel is going out the exaust maybe.... Lol I have a habit of not riding like that, But today I did. I was in no hurry heck I didn't even know where I was going. I just let tinker lead the way, Now this may sound a little strange tho, I would get to around 70-75 and would feel a bit of wobble. I am not sure if this was in the road, maybe I have something out of alignment when I put the tires back on. But I did have wind blowing at my side and the road this happend on was asphalt. But was noticeable on a concrete stretch with those grooves/lines at around 60. Do I need the Washer smashed between the brake holder and the swing arm? If so that is more then likely my problem.

 

First, it doesnt sound strange at all, I often embark with no idea where i'm going, I just feel the road and change course on a whim with little or no thought. It's the only time in life I allow myself to make decisions based on emotion.

 

On the wobble, I just got rid of my wobble, it was bad when I got crosswinds or when changing lanes. If I wiggled the bar a little it would reward me with a whole bike wobble of pucker factor 5-6. All I did was adjust the steering head bearings. They werent loose when I grabbed the forks but they bounced kind of far off the stops with the bounce test. I got another 1/4 turn to get them to bounce right. Figured while I had it on the center I lowered the jack to let the front wheel just touch the bround but with no weight on it. I pulled the front axle loose from the left fork but left it in the wheel, then loosened the 4 impossible to reach 12mm nuts on the upper tree a 4 allens on the lower tree, loosened the fork brace. Then torqued the front axle back, tightened the upper and lower tree then tightened the fork brace. Next ride was rock solid stable. I did check the rear swing arm for play and there was none. So that got me from a scary high speed wobble to the feel of a brand new bike. I know tire wear can cause strange highway behavior too. If your missing a washer back there I'm sure that will not help matters at all.

[snyper316]

First, it doesnt sound strange at all, I often embark with no idea where i'm going, I just feel the road and change course on a whim with little or no thought. It's the only time in life I allow myself to make decisions based on emotion.

 

On the wobble, I just got rid of my wobble, it was bad when I got crosswinds or when changing lanes. If I wiggled the bar a little it would reward me with a whole bike wobble of pucker factor 5-6. All I did was adjust the steering head bearings. They werent loose when I grabbed the forks but they bounced kind of far off the stops with the bounce test. I got another 1/4 turn to get them to bounce right. Figured while I had it on the center I lowered the jack to let the front wheel just touch the bround but with no weight on it. I pulled the front axle loose from the left fork but left it in the wheel, then loosened the 4 impossible to reach 12mm nuts on the upper tree a 4 allens on the lower tree, loosened the fork brace. Then torqued the front axle back, tightened the upper and lower tree then tightened the fork brace. Next ride was rock solid stable. I did check the rear swing arm for play and there was none. So that got me from a scary high speed wobble to the feel of a brand new bike. I know tire wear can cause strange highway behavior too. If your missing a washer back there I'm sure that will not help matters at all.

 

well basically I am trying to find proper placement of the rear axle all the washers are in the respective places, I can't remember if the washer was sandwiched between the swing arm and the brake mount, The wobble I feel is coming from the back, or if it isn't then I was crazy for taking my hands off the bars... I did this around 55 just to see what would happen. I still can't get my cruise to work correctly I set it at 60 and up hills it would go all the way down to 55 going up and then 65 going down. So when you set yours at 70 does it stay at 70 or will it go to 80 going down a hill? O wait... Mine is a silver mechanism yours is electronic.

[cimmer]

I have found that tightening the frame mount bolts for the rear subframe assemble can help with some rear end wobble. Also make sure the swing arm bolts/bearing are greased and properly adjusted also. Just some of things I have checked on my 89 anyway..

Rick F.

[snyper316]

I have found that tightening the frame mount bolts for the rear subframe assemble can help with some rear end wobble. Also make sure the swing arm bolts/bearing are greased and properly adjusted also. Just some of things I have checked on my 89 anyway..

Rick F.

 

Well there is half an inch between brake bracket and swing arm. The grease well thats when my problem started when I took the wheel back off to do all that... So I didn't properly reassemble it. Just an adjustment and I should be good to go. I keep referring to the washer being sandwiched between brake bracket and Swingarm. So I assembled something wrong, its easy to do when You aren't paying attention. I believe I tightened the pinch bolt last and I think your supposed to do that first.

[snyper316]

Well sorry for hijacking you Casey but here is a good one I don't know if it has anything to do with it but, I think someone was thinking right shaft drive. But the tire is rotating backwards.

 

"Never ride faster then your guardian angel can fly."