Used R6 calipers, HH pads and brake upgrade ramblings

[CaseyJ955]

It took me less than a handful of miles on my new Venture before I realized that the brakes would need some improvement, by the time I had ridden the nearly 300 mi home after buying it I had a whole list of things, brakes being at the top. My stopping power was underwhelming, the lever was soft and inconsistent. I decided to go with ebay for the cheap and plentiful previously enjoyed R6 calipers so I ordered a couple good used blue dots off a 2001 R6 for the front with some braided line. When I went to remove the rear brake I found that it was binding and holding onto the rotor just as the fronts were so I opted instead of rebuilding I would replace the rear with an R6 caliper too. The rear one is a front right off an 08-ish R6S and allows me to access the bleeder screw although it is positioned over the end of the pads so if it leaks it will contaminate the pads. I bled it having stuffed a chunk of cardboard and a rag under the screw to catch any drippings.

 

So I had really hoped that I could just buy known good calipers and toss em' on, cheaping out of overhauling and new pads etc etc. These calipers came with pads that looked nearly new so why not minimize the amount of $ I dump into a 30 year old bike? So I toss em' on the bike, delink and install the braided front lines with a Vmax splitter and my homemade aluminium mounting plate for said splitter. After all this the system was bone dry so the bleeding took a while with the Mighty-Vac, I decided to run a good amount of fluid through them for a thorough flushing after the calipers had been shelved for who knows how long. I flushed until the fluid coming out was spotless and clear, then flushed some more for good measure. End result was they were still hanging up slightly but lever and pedal were firm and consistent.

 

So fast forward to now that all the other work on the bike is done, I realize I have not cheaped out and have spent more money on this old bike than I will ever get back except for years of reliable service. I decided to order new pads, almost went with Volar pads to be cheap but after realizing those are generic mass manufacutred Chinese pads I thought better of it and found a deal on some semi-met Galfters for the rear and after much deliberation and consultation, some sintered HH pads for the front, also Galfer. I remove the rear caliper and while it's off I decide since it's getting new pads and I never want to have to think about it again until next pad service I would pop the pistons and have a peek inside. Damn good thing I did, there were still some significant pockets of heavily contaminated fluid with sludge and rust, this after bleeding extensively until it was crisp and clean coming out, I was surprised to see all that nasty crap still in there. Cleaned up, prelubed with DOT3, reassemble with new pads and back on the bike. This time gravity bleeding was easy. Now it grabs quite nicely but still a slight drag, I figure since I didnt index the pistons or anything they will wear in after a few miles and once the pads are homed in. The front pads should be here today so I'll do the same for the fronts. I would think the seller sold me a junk caliper but the fact of DOT3 is it very rapidly absorbs moisture from the atmosphere, the calipers being shelved with residual fluid inside was bad news. It did clean up nicely though. I cant believe I almost ran them with all that crap inside. I'm all for previously enjoyed calipers but best have a look inside before install I guess. The R1/6 caliper upgrade is popular on the Vmax side of things too, some guys change the master cyl as well to get the feel they want with regards to the ID and how much lever you need to get the braking power. I think I paid more for the pads than I did for the calipers. Full ride report in a couple days when I get her out on the road.

[CaseyJ955]

Just got the front HH pads so pulled off the front calipers, disassembled, cleaned, reassembled and replaced them one at a time with the new pads. The fronts were much cleaner than the rear inside, better condition but still small pockets of water contaminated DOT3 inside so glad they came apart. Also on assembly the pistons wiggled back into the caliper easier than on the rear caliper, I'm almost afraid the rear may end up coming off for a full kit and new pistons at some point.

 

It took me all of 90 minutes to do it all including bleeding. You really gotta bleed these good to firm up that lever. With the R6 calipers and OEM MKII MC it's full brake force at around half lever and feels mighty fine. Its raining today so I didnt take it for a ride, the tires are new and have not yet been scrubbed in so when it's dry I'll get out there and see how it goes.

[camos]

The fronts were much cleaner than the rear inside, better condition but still small pockets of water contaminated DOT3 inside so glad they came apart.

Apparently you are using DOT 3. I think DOT 4 is a better choice since it has a higher boiling point and is less likely to introduce air into the system. The two types are compatible with each other, unlike DOT 5.

[CaseyJ955]

I completely forgot about DOT4, I remember that anything upwards of that was a fail for the older systems, especially some with residual fluid left. Oh well, I change fluids every two years. These calipers were new to me so I'm not sure what was used in them before.

 

It just stopped raining, I hope I can get a ride in tomorrow when it dries out. I'm beyond anxious to see how these brakes work, among other things done since I parked it last fall.

[camos]

I completely forgot about DOT4, I remember that anything upwards of that was a fail for the older systems, especially some with residual fluid left. Oh well, I change fluids every two years. These calipers were new to me so I'm not sure what was used in them before.

The DOT 5 is incompatible. When I changed over a few years ago I just started using DOT 4 and let it work its way out. Can't say I noticed any difference between the two so it's probably not much of an issue.

 

It just stopped raining, I hope I can get a ride in tomorrow when it dries out. I'm beyond anxious to see how these brakes work, among other things done since I parked it last fall.

It's been drizzling or raining here almost daily for two months but not all day long so the roads are often damp but still quite nice during the sunny breaks. Admittedly, I prefer riding dry roads but a little drizzle isn't too bad. Since I'm not riding just for fun I can only suck it up and go. Looking forward to not having to carry my splash pants every time I go somewhere.

[snyper316]

Hey Casey when you used the mity vac did you bleed off the proportioning valve on your bike or were you able to bleed them out with just the front screw?

[CaseyJ955]

Hey Casey when you used the mity vac did you bleed off the proportioning valve on your bike or were you able to bleed them out with just the front screw?

 

One of the first things I did to my bike was remove the guts from the proportioning valve and delink the system. I like the mighty vac, a nice tight hose and it works pretty well. I tried bleeding it with it linked and it sucked, I couldnt get a firm lever for anything. The mighty vac helped me move enough volume through the system to get it to where I could bleed it the old way, which is my preference. I wish I could help more on bleeding them linked.

[snyper316]

Its all good I was curious is all if the mighty vac even did any good.

 

"Never ride faster then your guardian angel can fly."

[CaseyJ955]

Its all good I was curious is all if the mighty vac even did any good.

 

"Never ride faster then your guardian angel can fly."

 

It does, I like it, but I also realize that every system bleeds differently, most cars/trucks have enough of a MC capacity that you can pump the brakes until it firms up and begin hold school bleeding which requires a helper. Reverse bleeding is nice, but a lot of OEM master cylinders have some built in check valves (not sure if this exists on bikes or not) and forcing fluid backwards through it can damage those. I like gravity bleeding but the Mighty-Vac works where you would otherwise be pumping the brakes until you yark just to try and get fluid up to the caliper/wc. Once I have fluid at the end I like to put the mighty-vac away and bleed the old way. I still use a clear hose on the bleeder screw and prop it up so I can see what the fluid looks like and watch for any air. There was an outfit a while back, maybe still selling a check valve in a clear hose that you would slip over the bleeder and just pump, the check valve would presumably take the place of opening and closing the bleeder. I tried one and it just didnt seem to work well but I think it's a cool idea and find myself wondering if there is a better quality version on the market somewhere. I get by great with a combination of mighty vac and traditional bleeding and this Venture with linked brakes is the first thing to throw me a real challenge.

[snyper316]

It does, I like it, but I also realize that every system bleeds differently, most cars/trucks have enough of a MC capacity that you can pump the brakes until it firms up and begin hold school bleeding which requires a helper. Reverse bleeding is nice, but a lot of OEM master cylinders have some built in check valves (not sure if this exists on bikes or not) and forcing fluid backwards through it can damage those. I like gravity bleeding but the Mighty-Vac works where you would otherwise be pumping the brakes until you yark just to try and get fluid up to the caliper/wc. Once I have fluid at the end I like to put the mighty-vac away and bleed the old way. I still use a clear hose on the bleeder screw and prop it up so I can see what the fluid looks like and watch for any air. There was an outfit a while back, maybe still selling a check valve in a clear hose that you would slip over the bleeder and just pump, the check valve would presumably take the place of opening and closing the bleeder. I tried one and it just didnt seem to work well but I think it's a cool idea and find myself wondering if there is a better quality version on the market somewhere. I get by great with a combination of mighty vac and traditional bleeding and this Venture with linked brakes is the first thing to throw me a real challenge.

Supposedly motion Pro sells one I believe that's where the guy said it was on YouTube. I went to AutoZone and bought a mityvac and it seemed to help a little I got pedal now which adapter did you use

 

"Never ride faster then your guardian angel can fly."

[CaseyJ955]

Supposedly motion Pro sells one I believe that's where the guy said it was on YouTube. I went to AutoZone and bought a mityvac and it seemed to help a little I got pedal now which adapter did you use

 

"Never ride faster then your guardian angel can fly."

 

I have a metric butt-load of adapters with it but I have a clear hose that is hogged out on one end to fit right onto the jar and the other end snugly over the bleeder screw. So homemade adapter if you will. It really does come in handy for pulling fluid through the system doesnt it? I know some guys that complete the job with the mighty vac and are happy with it. I'm OCD and probably overkill but I like to give it a few pumps and bleeding the old way after the mighty vac pulls the fluid down. The mighty-vac has been pretty handy over the years.

[BratmanXj]

There was an outfit a while back, maybe still selling a check valve in a clear hose that you would slip over the bleeder and just pump, the check valve would presumably take the place of opening and closing the bleeder.

 

Anytime I've had to do major brake work to any vehicle I've broken down and purchased Speed Bleeders. The check valve is built into the bleeder nipple.

 

Edit: Bike has them front, rear, & clutch... Put RS Warrior "R6 calipers" on the front and a new clutch slave in a few years back.

[snyper316]

Yeah but I don't believe there supposed to be a gurgling sound where the proportioning valve is

 

"Never ride faster then your guardian angel can fly."

[snyper316]

Yeah I ended up using my own hose too because I didn't like the way the adapters fit. It's not like a gurgling sound but you can tell there's a valve there I don't know if it's supposed to make a noise or not

 

"Never ride faster then your guardian angel can fly."

[camos]

Not knocking mity-vacs or speed bleeders because they do work as advertised but I am completely amazed that anyone other than a MkI owner has difficulty bleeding brakes, linked or not. I have talked about this a few times, once you understand a couple of principles of simple physics you should be able to bleed each of these tiny systems in 10 or 15 minutes...including cleanup.

 

The primary thing to know is that the law of gravity can work for you and against you. It works for you if the hose coming off the bleeder has a rise of a couple of inches before turning down to the waste container. Gravity will keep a head of fluid at the bleeder providing a lock that will prevent air from getting sucked back into the system. Try it, put the hose on the bleeder, open it and pump enough fluid to fill the tube to the bend. As long as there is no leak at the tube end the level will stay the same for as long as you care to watch it.

 

Gravity will work against you while pumping to flush the system if the fluid does not move quickly enough to carry trapped air to the exit point. Slow moving fluid allows more time for air to float up and away from the exit point. Slow moving fluid, combined with pressure can also allow small amounts of air to be trapped at fitting joints. To overcome that effect it is necessary to pump as quickly as possible under no pressure.

 

This introduces another principle, compression, which can ultimately turn a gas into a a liquid. That of course does not happen here but compression will reduce the area occupied by a gas which effectively firms it up and makes it cling to any depression which makes it more difficult to move. The practice of pressurizing the system then opening the bleeder is where this most commonly happens. Zero pressure is the cure for sticky air and is conveniently provided by the tube open to atmospheric pressure as mentioned above.

 

There are a couple of variables that may affect the easy movement of fluid. One is not having the bike sitting level, as in on the side stand. I don't believe this should matter, I haven't tested it, but it might. The second is any crud in the system will tend to block the easy flow of fluid. It is quite possible that a system which has sat for a long time will have a crud build up and may take several flushes before it gets cleared out.

 

That's about it. Happy Bleeding.

[snyper316]

Not knocking mity-vacs or speed bleeders because they do work as advertised but I am completely amazed that anyone other than a MkI owner has difficulty bleeding brakes, linked or not. I have talked about this a few times, once you understand a couple of principles of simple physics you should be able to bleed each of these tiny systems in 10 or 15 minutes...including cleanup.

 

The primary thing to know is that the law of gravity can work for you and against you. It works for you if the hose coming off the bleeder has a rise of a couple of inches before turning down to the waste container. Gravity will keep a head of fluid at the bleeder providing a lock that will prevent air from getting sucked back into the system. Try it, put the hose on the bleeder, open it and pump enough fluid to fill the tube to the bend. As long as there is no leak at the tube end the level will stay the same for as long as you care to watch it.

 

Gravity will work against you while pumping to flush the system if the fluid does not move quickly enough to carry trapped air to the exit point. Slow moving fluid allows more time for air to float up and away from the exit point. Slow moving fluid, combined with pressure can also allow small amounts of air to be trapped at fitting joints. To overcome that effect it is necessary to pump as quickly as possible under no pressure.

 

This introduces another principle, compression, which can ultimately turn a gas into a a liquid. That of course does not happen here but compression will reduce the area occupied by a gas which effectively firms it up and makes it cling to any depression which makes it more difficult to move. The practice of pressurizing the system then opening the bleeder is where this most commonly happens. Zero pressure is the cure for sticky air and is conveniently provided by the tube open to atmospheric pressure as mentioned above.

 

There are a couple of variables that may affect the easy movement of fluid. One is not having the bike sitting level, as in on the side stand. I don't believe this should matter, I haven't tested it, but it might. The second is any crud in the system will tend to block the easy flow of fluid. It is quite possible that a system which has sat for a long time will have a crud build up and may take several flushes before it gets cleared out.

 

That's about it. Happy Bleeding.

 

Humm I got the silly MKI and it was annoying to bleed, I like the linked brakes. But this winter you better believe I am pulling that line and replacing it with MKII line so I can have the bleeder up top. Your Right simple physics at play, but the way the valve is makes it a PITA!! Normally I have brakes bled out in 15-30 minutes depending on where I run into issues or not, most of the time I do not. Another way I bleed brakes on my vehicles (NON AntiLock) was pop all four bleeders then pulled the master cylinder cap, go inside grab a bite to eat come back out check level refill as needed. This way does take longer but it has always worked for me. Mainly the only problems I have ever ran into was plugged bleeder holes. Simple fix.. fastest break bleed was the scooters I used to own. But both masters were on the handlebars. No traveling up and around and back down, But even with that You syphon gas the hose goes up, goes back down. You jump start it and physics takes over. Which is the way I thought it would work On my 83, But in the back of my mind was thinking to myself how when the master cylinder seems like it sets lower then the end of the line.

[CaseyJ955]

I RODE IT, I RODE IT, I RODE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

 

Oh MFG, I see why you guys like these things so much, WOW. What an amazing machine, olly krapp.

 

First off, this is not the same bike I brought home last fall, nope, this is a very competent and comfortable road bike. I knew I would love this machine but I had no idea just what my tour-happy a$$ has been missing all these years! It's almost like this thing was made for touring....or...well I guess it is.

 

So first ride and I'm DEEPLY impressed. I've been on the Vmax all morning and I got home with all errands completed so I jump on the Venture and take up away from town and head to Hill City. This bike rocks, I can feel the -55hp and +300 lbs compared to the Vmax but that being said this thing moves out just fine. It can put on the dancing shoes at a moments notice and gleefuly waltz through the sweepers and corners. I'm still scrubbing in new tires so taking it somewhat easy.

 

Front brakes: The R6 calipers and Galfer HH pads do the trick. The brakes on this bike went from a 2.5 to a solid 9.5. I'm so happy to have the link removed, braided lines, modern calipers and pads. She stops with enough power that I can feel my brain squish against the back of my face and all with very little lever effort, it stops like a bike half it's weight. No hint of grabbiness as I suspected. I dont even have the pads fully homed in yet but it already has more than enough braking power. Just like the throttle it's very linear and easy to use.

 

Rear brakes: they work but I really have to stand on them. I suspect the semi metalic pads were closer to organic. I should have used HH pads back there too. They are ok if a bit numb and dont hold a candle to the fronts. If they dont work better once homed in I'm getting a rebuild kit for the R6 caliper back there and another set of HH pads, otherwise it will be fine.

 

Progressives/fork rebuild: Amazing how this thing soaks up bumps and handles the road. Mushes through the corners like it thinks it's an CBR (sort of) deceptively nimble for an obese old spine framed turd. It really feels like a much newer bike. I started thinking that the front could be a touch softer and that would be ok too so I stopped and realized that there was 16 lbs of air in the front so I put the CLASS system in manual mode and let all the air out of the front and when I started riding I was amazed all over again. Actually the CLASS system says 6lbs, its as low as I could get it and I'm not sure why, if theres really 6lbs in there or how I can zero it out. Any tips there appreciated. The progressives do not need air on top of them.

 

COPs/Ignitek: What can I say, smooth linear power with no hickups or glitches. It's smooth, quiet and willing from 2000rpm up in lower gears and 3000-3500 on up in the higher gears. It's hard to feel the acceleration or speed on this bike but I know it's gathering speed quickly by watching the speedo whiz up past 80 with a flick of the wrist. I still dont know if I have my MPG issue fixed but otherwise this bike is a gem!!!

 

I can see this bike and I are going to be excellent friends. Something sucky did happen though and I'll throw it out there in case anyone has guidance. I rebuilt the forks with new OEM seals, bushings and dust covers, put progressives and carefuly measured fluid levels and I noticed a pretty bad leak on the right side seal. Significant enough that I dont dare ride it again until it's fixed. The left side is just fine, no hint of any leakage and both forks looked great during assembly, I was very careful and not sure what it might be. Any ideas?

 

So the only questions I'm left with is how to get 0lbs of PSI in the front forks insted of indicated 6?

Any ideas on why a seal would leak so badly whilst being brand new, I lifted the cover and it's got the washer and clip holidng it in. Can I pull that and raise the seal with the bike on it's weight?

Is it normal to hear a little gear noise in deceleration in 4th and 5th gear. It's not much but some. It's not an issue for me, I just want to know if it's normal.

 

Man, I'm still glowing from the ride and realizing what a great bike this is, it really blew my expectations out of the water.

 

Thanks!

[camos]

You jump start it and physics takes over. Which is the way I thought it would work On my 83, But in the back of my mind was thinking to myself how when the master cylinder seems like it sets lower then the end of the line.

With all that I talked about the only parts that really need to be heeded are the head of fluid at the bleeder and that the bleeder needs to remain open until all the air is out. The rest of it is just an explanation of why it works. With the number of twists and turns and the level of the MC, trying to do gravity only bleed is not a very efficient method even a not possible method.

 

Regarding the MkI, linked or de-linked is a matter of choice that has nothing to do with the bleeding process. Adding a bleeder at the head end or replacing the line with a MkII version is a good upgrade as is upgrading the brakes to MkII or Rx versions.

[camos]

I RODE IT, I RODE IT, I RODE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

 

Oh MFG, I see why you guys like these things so much, WOW. What an amazing machine, olly krapp.

 

Awesome, made me laugh out loud when I read this. Still smiling. Congrats.

[snyper316]

Just one silly question Casey, did you change out the fluid in the rear and grease everything back there too? Now you seen why I love my bike, all I ever hear from anyone who has ever owned one, is that they miss it and there fast!!! Now you were talking about maxifieing it, and One guy on here already has. Could you just imagine opening the throttle with the max kicked in. Now that has got to be a blast, However I like my venture just the way she is. I got to see the potential when I first bought mine before the gremlins got to her over the winter. It ran fine before the starter went out, just a little hard to start at times. But she went like a Bat Out Of H3ll!!!

[CaseyJ955]

Just one silly question Casey, did you change out the fluid in the rear and grease everything back there too? Now you seen why I love my bike, all I ever hear from anyone who has ever owned one, is that they miss it and there fast!!! Now you were talking about maxifieing it, and One guy on here already has. Could you just imagine opening the throttle with the max kicked in. Now that has got to be a blast, However I like my venture just the way she is. I got to see the potential when I first bought mine before the gremlins got to her over the winter. It ran fine before the starter went out, just a little hard to start at times. But she went like a Bat Out Of H3ll!!!

 

I have not changed final drive oil, was going to do that next. I'm anxious to sort out this fork seal issue, thats all there is to be concerned with right now. Still cant see why it happened to a new seal. I guess I'll have to pull the clip and see if I can lift the seal up and check it out.