EFI for the Ventures

[Flyinfool]

OK now I went and did it.

There is a website that I have been drooling at for a few years now.

http://roadstercycle.com/yamaha_vmax_fuel_injector_cv_car.htm

This guy figured out how to convert our existing CV carbs into EFI.

The conversion makes no physical changes to any part of the bike so if you do not like the EFI you can always put the old parts back in and have you same old carbs back. It looks almost easy enough that you could keep the carb parts in a bag and convert back on the side of the road if needed. This should work equally well on 1st gen MKI or MKII or even a 2nd gen, with or with out a V-Max conversion.

 

So a couple of days ago I hit the "Add to Cart" button on the website and got an error. Bummer. So I sent off an email to the guy to see if he was still making the custom parts for the conversion. He emailed back that he is no longer making the parts kit for $200 but he is selling the plans for $20. I figured COOL, I have a lathe and a mill in my basement and I have more time than money anyhow.

So I ordered the plans and they were in my mailbox within an hour. I have since redrawn the plans into 3D cad, made some custom changes of my own, mostly cosmetic and to make the parts a lot harder to actually make.

 

So now I am starting to source and acquire all of the various parts that will be need to do this conversion.

 

Another one of the advantages of doing this is that the EFI controller is also quite capable of handling ignition duties at the same time. This means that spark timing and fuel can be coordinated. it also means that I can easily switch to COPs without having to buy another TCI.

 

This is not a project that will happen real fast. It will take me a long time to figure out how to actually make the parts and do all of the machining.

I also have budgetary issues that mean it will take me a long time to acquire all of the parts needed.

 

Clip to hold the injector in place.

 

 

Fitting to attach the fuel line to the injector.

 

 

Inside view of the injector holder that will replace the slide and diaphragm in the carb.

 

 

Outside view of the injector holder that will replace the slide and diaphragm in the carb.

 

 

Replacement side cover for the carb.

[stanG]

You go! @Flyinfool

 

Can't wait to hear more about this!

[CaseyJ955]

Wow, lathe, mill and CAD proficiency. Just wanted to let you know that we are now best buds and I'll be often calling you for complicated favors which will be rewarded with fist bumps and high fives, bro.

 

Seriously that is very cool, something plenty of folks want is EFI, it's not only true here but on the Vmax side. What not everyone has is the $1500 or so we thought the whole project would cost. It will be interesting to see what you have invested by the time your done.

[SilvrT]

Have you considered farming out the creation of the parts to a 3D printer? These things can do amazing stuff nowadays.

[Karaboo]

I don't think 3D printed parts could take the heat.

[Flyinfool]

I had not thought of 3D printing.

Now ya had to go and bring that up, A 3d printer has been on my want list for a long time now.......................

Just waiting for the right project to nudge me over the top to chase the moths out of my wallet...............

 

I am not sure of the strength and heat resistance of the printed plastic. I have no idea what the temps are around the carbs nestled down in the V between the 4 heat generators. I also am not sure on the resistance to gasoline, oil, and ethanol of the plastics used. These parts will see all 3.

 

From what I have seen 3D metal printing is very expensive.

 

And then there are the tolerance issues.

@CaseyJ955, I will be surprised if I can get this done for under $1500 not including my labor and tooling I will need to buy, (IF I make a couple of sets of parts it would help to defray the cost of the tooling) When you toss in that times 4 factor to convert 4 carbs, things start adding up quick, and some of the individual parts are expensive. I do not have any plans or desires to go into production on this. BUT then I never had plans to go into production on the valve tool either...............

 

I am always looking for fun things to do.

[SilvrT]

hmmmm ... I wonder if making 3D parts to use to create a mold that you could use to make metal parts would work?

 

My son used to work in a metal molding plant where they made all sorts of things. On one of our streets downtown here we have some pretty decorative street lamps ... he made all of the "arms" in that plant.

 

[vzuden]

Regarding 3D printing: There are companies printing with metal. The plastic used in the "at home" 3d printers may have trouble with heat and fuel.

[Karaboo]

You can get some of the more affordable 3D printers to run an aramid filled nylon, but that is not very common. I am not sure what the tolerance or finish would be. We typically do a secondary step to get something useful when we print parts for assembly fixtures at work. I have made a few ABS parts that just happened to fit on my bike over a weekend or lunch hour.

[snyper316]

Karaboo how much for the two Fairing over lunch?

[Flyinfool]

But having someone 3D print the parts takes out all of the fun of being able to say "I made those". I think even if I had them printed in metal or plastic I would have to have them made oversize so I could get the proper final finish and tolerance. There are some really close tolerances in places like +.000 -.002 with a 32 finish. I still have to do the same setup to do the same final machining.

[snyper316]

This sounds like fun anyway ya slice it.. I will be interested in final outcome

 

Living life one curve after the other. Vroom scooting, thru the countryside.

[Matt_P]

i would pay you for this, please keep us updated!!!

[Flyinfool]

The engineer in me is leaking out, I lost count of how many times I have modified the design. There is always a better way to do it.

It started out with the design being purely functional, but it was not nice to look at. I now have it looking much better but also a lot harder to make.

For instance, the finned cover with the hole in the middle, It started life as just a flat piece of 1/8 thick aluminum plate. I added the fins just for the sake of appearance. this plate replaces the diaphragm cover on the carb so it is right out there and visible. I intend to make the cover black and then mill the edges of the fins back to bright, then clear coat to keep it looking good over time, should look much nicer that just a flat plate. Once I get the injectors, the injector will be sticking out through that hole in the plate, injectors are not very pretty so I may redesign the cover to hide more of it or see if I can come up with a cover for the injector, its wires and the gas line. Although I think I am going to use braided stainless gas lines just for the looks so I may not have to hide them.

 

So far the design exists only in my computer and between my ears. My ears have been known to leak ideas out also.......

As I mentioned earlier, this is a long term project, due to both financial and time reasons. Some of the parts I will have to buy expensive tooling to be able to make them. While the guy that designed the basic system has CNC to make the parts I am all manual machines so it will take a lot of time.

 

My biggest concern is getting fuel mapping correct, to lean and the engine melts real quick.

 

To save some cash I will be building the controller myself from a bag of resistors diodes capacitors ICs and other electrical goodies. The controller will be able to do both EFI and ignition. But this in its self will take a lot of time.

 

As to if I will sell any or all of the parts, It will depend on just how much time it takes to make them, how much of a PITA it is to make them, and can I make them at a reasonable cost. I am expecting this conversion to cost me between $1500 and $2000 just in parts and materials alone, that includes nothing for all of the time it will take to make the parts that are custom to the application.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Flyinfool

[frankd]

Jeff,

 

Referring to the air/fuel ratio.......wouldn't you just use an O2 sensor and run a closed loop system?

 

Frank

[Flyinfool]

Jeff,

 

Referring to the air/fuel ratio.......wouldn't you just use an O2 sensor and run a closed loop system?

 

Frank

 

Yes I will cave an O2 sensor. it will be on the exhaust pipe of one of the front cylinders, just because they are easier to get off than the rear pipes so I can be on the bench to drill the holes and weld in a bung for the O2 sensor. I was also debating putting the O2 sensor on the collector so it will see an average of all 4 cylinders. But I do not know if there is room.

But you still need to tell it what AF ratio you want under all of the various conditions there are several big tables to setup AF ratios based on rpm, throttle position acceleration deceleration engine vacuum. you want to run a bit leaner while cruising at a steady state but you need to go richer when you yank the throttle open. Yes you can just set all of the tables at 14:1 and it will run and be safe. but acceleration will be sluggish and gas mileage will be bad it will be popping out the exhaust etc. That is what all must be tuned in. Fat fingering an entry could be bad news.

[Flyinfool]

Well I have ordered and received one of the injectors. This allows me to verify the sizes and fits.

Of course it don't fit as expected so I am now editing the dimensions of all the parts that I have drawn up. Good thing I did not just believe the drawings and start cutting metal.

 

Who knows, if it keeps up with this weather pattern of rain all weekend every weekend, I might actually get this built.

 

I still have some small parts to find sources for.

[videoarizona]

Jeff,

 

If you do want to offer this kit to the masses (us)...then you need to take into account the 2nd gen gas tank partially covers the diaphrams on the carbs....IE... need a right angle injector or plenum for each carb. Wonder if this might be a good time to mention two injectors on a throttle body deep in the "V" where the carbs now sit, feeding 2 carbs each, may be a lot easier...or whatever it takes for our V4's. But thinking vertical here...

 

Here is a pic of my finger stuck in the small space between the carb cover and the bottom edge of the gas tank.

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by videoarizona
Correcting for the "duh".

[Yammer Dan]

Jeff it would take some pull and play but I think that 02 sensor could be stuck on top of the collector. Lot of trouble to hide it.

[Flyinfool]

Vid

I never even thought of the 2nd gens, there is a lot of stuff to find places for, no one near me has a 2nd gen for me to look at. The farther that I get into this I am not so sure that it is suitable for the masses, at least not by me. There is a lot of electrical work to do and I know that scares a lot of people, there is welding to do, and a lot of mechanical assembly of all the bits and pieces. There is also a huge amount of time needed for me to make all of the custom parts since I do not have access to CNC. My basement is all manual machines. I started working on a BOM and parts list, from a distance it is looking like it will sneak up on the 2K mark, my cost, not including any tools I have to buy. I am not going the cheapest route for everything, cheap is sometimes more expensive in the long run.

 

Once I buy the O2 sensor and the weld on bung I can start to play with ideas of where to put it. I was hoping to fit it on top of the collector. so it can read an average of all 4 cylinders, It has been recommended to me to just put it on any one down pipes close to the valve. I think that it would be fairly easy to hide on one of the front pipes way up high. And a LOT easier than dropping the collector.

 

Did I ever mention that I hate carbs, even more than most of you hate snow.

[camos]

I know making your own stuff is more important than the stuff itself but have you looked at the FI on the 2017 V-Max? It might offer cheaper options for some parts.

 

Edit: OK, so maybe not. Just had a look on the parts fiche, just under $1800 for the throttle body assembly and not sure what that includes. Oh well, it was a thought.

Edited June 17, 2017 by camos

[Condor]

Here's just a thought on the parts. Would making them out of 3D plastic and then could using the plastic part to make molds for investment casting be feasible?? During my stint with Ithaca Gun we switched from machined parts to investment casting, and every part in every shotgun was interchangeable. No more hand fitting if a part needed to be replaced. I wonder what the cost would be on a small batch?? The question also rears it's ugly head, is the conversion patented, and by selling you the plans was it for a one-time use?? Lots of possible legal snags... 2¢ Ka-ching...

Edited June 19, 2017 by Condor

[Flyinfool]

The person that invented the system no longer will make the parts, He is also the same person selling the plans. I spoke to him and he has no problem with me making the parts to sell as long as I do not divulge the plans, since he still sells those. He even encouraged me to make extra sets and he likes my redesign to the point he wants to buy a set of parts from me once I have them. So there is no legal issues at this point in time.

[Flyinfool]

Jeff,

 

If you do want to offer this kit to the masses (us)...then you need to take into account the 2nd gen gas tank partially covers the diaphrams on the carbs....IE... need a right angle injector or plenum for each carb. Wonder if this might be a good time to mention two injectors on a throttle body deep in the "V" where the carbs now sit, feeding 2 carbs each, may be a lot easier...or whatever it takes for our V4's. But thinking vertical here...

 

Here is a pic of my finger stuck in the small space between the carb cover and the bottom edge of the gas tank.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=109406

 

Ya know...........................

Looking at this pic some more. The diaphragm covers are raised quite a bit above the surface that the screw heads bear on. I would have to look at a 2nd gen a lot closer but I think this might just fit inside of the tank. It will be real close.

[baylensman]

Just to ask a few maybe dumb questions, So we are talking converting current CV carbs to TBI carbs?

I've been looking at the kits for VW based buggys, small TBI and complete electrics can be had in the $2K range. Also looking at the Holley 2BBL self contained kit under $1K either way would need some sort of manifold. I did do a Steel tube manifold years ago for a small V8 ( 221 CID mercury) we were trying to run in bracket racing. WE built it right on the block, before we sent it out to be cooked and cleaned, we used some 1" exhaust tube and a knocked up box from our brake then tacked a 4 bbl spacer plate to it. It worked! If i had a spare engine sitting around hmmmm....