Any help would be appreciated before I throw a match on my 86 Venture....

[Javenmcd]

that image is definitely not the fuel pump...my pump is factory and near the left rear footrest. No one has been able to tell me exactly what that component is but others with an 86 have the same setup....as for the canister, I pulled the line from the carb and put a bit of pressurized air down the line into the canister and it spewed fuel out of the nipple in the bottom so I know it's not full of fuel...just had some in it. Does that make sense?

[videoarizona]

Yea it does.....check this part out...there is an outer vent control....has an electrical connector. Has something to do with the california crap....

 

http://www.countlessbargains.com/venture/1986_1987_XVZ13D_S_SC_T_TC.PDF

 

#14 on the parts list.

 

Wonder if it has something to do with controlling the venting/vacuum or however the system works.

 

Last...I'm wondering if you can take that whole darn thing off! At least that way you can eliminate it from your list of suspects...

 

Sure looks like a fuel pump though....! Wonder if that's the outer vent control???

 

Page B10... pg 22

[videoarizona]

In the service manual, page 43....2-21... that part shows it's an air vent control valve. What if it's not working right and somehow sucking gas out of the carbs??

[Javenmcd]

That sounds like a possibility....anyone have any experience with this piece or how to eliminate the CA crap?

[videoarizona]

I sure don't...hope someone else has some experience with this.

 

I would image, guessing here, take it off and plug the vacuum lines. You should probably gets some rubber caps to plug off the carb ports first, disconnect the lines from the carbs, maybe cap them too and leave everything else alone. Do a test. If bike runs fine and nothing else happens, then you can probable cap off everything semi-permanently for a while and ride. If everything still works fine....then you can take the stuff off. Just make sure your vacuum advance and such are still connected (if that even have anything to do with the Cal stuff??) so the computer knows what's going on.

[videoarizona]

Don't know if this will help.....its for the earlier generation stuff...but maybe some ideas for you.

 

there is a link there as to taking that stuff off....not like yours...but then...

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?106982-YICS-keep-or-throw

[Javenmcd]

Thanks for the reply AZ! Not many others have chimed in....I fear I may have stumped some. I'm going to look at vent control valve as soon as I get a chance....stay tuned if you care.

[CaseyJ955]

Thanks for the reply AZ! Not many others have chimed in....I fear I may have stumped some. I'm going to look at vent control valve as soon as I get a chance....stay tuned if you care.

. What happens if the bowl vent line is unplugged and left open to atmosphere? If this system is specific to CA models that would really reduce the number of folks that have had to deal with it.

[cimmer]

I was doing some checking on the parts diagram for an 89 VR as I didn't see the Venture listed for the 86 or 87 years. Here is a link to the canister for the CA emissions.

http://www.partshark.com/oemparts/a/yam/5107f827f870022108d6572f/control-device-for-california-model-only

http://www.partshark.com/oemparts/a/yam/5107f827f870022108d6572e/carburetor-california-model-only

It shows some of the hoses and where they are connected to. The CA models have the vent tubes from the carbs connected together to a T fitting that is in the middle of the carbs. It looks like from the diagram that the T connects to the another T that connects to a valve of some sort. Price listed doesnt even call it by name. The other connects goes to another T which then connects to the center connection of the canister with the other connection to some roll over valve. The outer nipple on the canister goes to the carb connection on carb #4 .

 

There is no fuel regulator on this bikes, just the fuel pump is all. So that shouldn't be an issue there. The fuel pump and filter are located on the left side of the bike along the swing arm. I would check the fuel filter to make sure it is in good shape. There is also a screen filter that is located in the carbs above the float valve seat, #35 on carb diagram. I had a friend that pulled it out and it was corroded a bit he said so I am not sure if that would be an issue as I would expect that to make a lean condition instead of a flooding one. He also thought his floats where hitting the retaining screw for the jet block as he too was getting some flooding on his bike.

 

I think I would check the CA canister equipment first or see if you can just remove it. This one is a head scratcher for sure..

 

Good luck and I hope some of this helps you out..

Rick F.

[cimmer]

Service Manual for the 86-93 Ventures is available here.

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/sh...ervice-Manuals

 

there is a link to where you can download it and then check out page 2-21 for a diagram of the CA system..

The brass nipple you see in the pictures does appear to vent to the atmosphere.

 

Rick F.

[Javenmcd]

I replaced both the fuel filter and the inlet screens last week....no change. Tomorrow I'm going to remove the canister and also perform troubleshooting on the air valve near the vents...thanks for the research. Hope it fixes the issue or the Venture is going away I think. A month wasted on it so far.....

[cowpuc]

Image 0690, right side pic......the brass thing looks like a fuel pump to me. One side is connected to something and the other spicket is wide open. Nothing connected to it. I say it "looks" like a fuel pump because our pumps are brass on the middle with a black end where the two hoses connect...one in from filter/tank the other out to the main fuel line that goes to all four carbs. There may even be a vent line to the side...don't remember.

 

The top has a black plastic case with wires coming out of it. That is where the fuel pump points are located.

 

So why is one side of the fuel pump (if it is that) not connected? And...why is the fuel pump there? isn't a first gen pump located down on the lower left part of the frame by the passenger foot rest??? An extra pump? Relocated? Am I nuts? (that is debateable but another story!!)

cowpuc you see what I see?

 

Had to step out for a couple days here chasing more Cancer related stuff - came home and got the message on this one - thanks for paging me VZ... Getting caught back up on where we were helping Jav here - looked at those pics (never did see nothing like that before on no 1st Gen of mine ) but gotta tell ya David - I thought EXACTLY the same thing you did about that looking like a fuel pump in there - sure looks familiar dont it! Why would Mom Yam hang an extra pump way up there WOWZY is that different.. Glad to see you guys are little by little getting it ironed out.

 

Having never owned or worked on a 1st Gen steed with a California brand on it,, I can only think of what I do know about California epa reasoning for what all that stuff is about.. Our bikes over flow the carbs onto the roadway under the bike (to atmosphere) - I highly doubt that California allows for this type of plumbing. Ours do crank vent back up to the airbox and many of us have discovered that adding to much oil on an oil change that when the crankcase gets hot it will aspirate oil into the airbox and then leak that excess oil out onto the engine - sound familiar? Thinking out loud here,, brains a little tired but trying..

I wonder if Mom Yam eliminated the overflow tubes for the carb bowls that run down the backbone of the bike and normally exit in front of the rear shock.. If they eliminated that circuitry and ran the over flows into some sort of vaporizing canister(s) (possibly what that thing that looks like a highly technical black cup holder with the hoses connected to it could be:confused24:). Wonder if that is what the nipple on the bottom of the carb does = replacing the overflow lines on our bikes..

Also wondering if that whole system but then be routed in junction with the crankcase/top end venting system back up to the airbox for complete the "NO VENTING TO ATMOSPHERE" rule that California might be requiring..

Jav - if what I am thinking has any accuracy at all,, I wonder if its possible that the canister(s) and vent system got filled with raw fuel back when she hydrolocked.. If so,, and being close to the engine like it is - I wonder if its possible that raw fuel is getting warmed up and forced back into the carbs... Not knowing exactly how that the lines for that system are routed or possible linked to the fuel system - also wondering if there may be a diaphram that is cracked somewhere that is allowing raw fuel to be pumped thru the venting system instead of thru the normal paths in the carbs.. I think if it were mine I would disconnect that system from the carbs so I knew there was no way I was getting fuel back into them from that possible source. I would then remove the air filter so I could see into the carbs, turn the key on - toggle the kill switch so the fuel pump clicks and she's pumping - keep doing it till it either stops clicking - indicating the carbs are full all the while watching the little main jet air vents right at the top of the throats of the carbs for overflow and also that nipple on the carb that connects to the cannister.. If it primes up with no sign of float valve or float issues - I'd fire that puppy up, keep a close eye on it and see if she holds.. In the end,, I would definitely be in the process of eliminating all that California stuff and getting her back to normal..

If those carbs are still overflowing and,if its plumbed like I think it may be (no over flow tubes running down to the front of the rear shock - all carbs over flows being tied together and exiting out that single nipple in the picture?) - I wonder if its possible that one carb has a hung up float or improperly set float height and that is causing all the carbs to "overflow" because they are all tied together on yours.. The 1st Gens I am familiar with have individual overflow tubes coming from the top of each carb - a hose connects to each one of them - then the group of four hoses pass under the airbox to the rear - down the frame of the bike being held in place by passage wire - those hoses will appear in front of your center stand/mono shock if you have them.. If what I am thinking is true and your bike does not have these tubes - it may be difficult to figure out what carb is problematic...

[BlueSky]

I don't know if the CA models are like my 2004 Kawasaki Concours but it didn't have carb overflows. If the fuel valve failed and the fuel needles leaked, gasoline would flood the engine and possibly cause hydrolock which typically bent connecting rods when the engine was turned by the starter.

[Javenmcd]

Thanks for getting back to me Cowpuc! I hope your health (or your loved one's) is improving. Here are some other observations...my carb vents merge into a single line and head to that fuel pump looking thingy (which i've found is called the air vent control valve). That valve is in the service manual and it has some trouble shooting criteria which I hope to do in the next day or so. It is powered so I'm supposed to power it and see if it operates by allowing air to pass under powered/unpowered conditions. From that valve the vents head over to that black charcoal canister. The fuel tank vent also Ts into that line and is input into the charcoal canister. The other line in the canister heads directly to that left front carb.

 

Now....every time I've started the bike from dead cold it runs great. Once it's good and warm and you shut it off it seems good to go on a restart for 10 or so minutes. After that when you try and start it, it acts flooded. Fuel pump cycles repeatedly. Observing the carbs from the top shows fuel coming out of those air bleed jets on the top. The carbs will start grumbling and burbling (audibly and visually) while the bike is sitting there for the next 30 minutes. You smell raw fuel and you can see fuel mist or fog in each of the carbs. I've pulled all 4 vent lines and none of them ever puke fuel at all. Once the bike cools down completely again, it fires right up and you start the whole process over again.

 

One of the last times it flooded, the canister filled with fuel and puked all over the side of the bike. I pulled the line from the carb and blew some low pressure air into the canister and purged it out of the exposed nipple in the bottom.

 

ARE YOU GUYS AS CONFUSED AS I AM????

 

I guess my next plan is: 1)test the air vent control valve, 2)remove the charcoal canister, plug the exposed carb nipple and run vents individually out the rear of the bike, 3)remove the fuel tank vent valve.....don't know if any of these will help but I don't really have any idea of what else to do. At this point I'm ready to shell out a few hundred buck for someone to sort it but none of the shops in town will touch it because of its, ahem, "maturity..."

 

Any other ideas or suggestions continue to be appreciated....my son, wife and I are all champing at the bit to get out and ride this thing.

[snyper316]

Our bikes over flow the carbs onto the roadway under the bike (to atmosphere) - I highly doubt that California allows for this type of plumbing. Ours do crank vent back up to the airbox and many of us have discovered that adding to much oil on an oil change that when the crankcase gets hot it will aspirate oil into the airbox and then leak that excess oil out onto the engine - sound familiar? Thinking out loud here,, brains a little tired but trying..

 

I am gonna be so so so upset if this has been my ordeal... How much damned oil will this airbox hold i got to looking and seen some up in there and also when I had the idle cranked to like 2500 rpm with airbox on I was seeing that infamous oil smoke come out my right exaust. and the other carbs where I accidently leaked gas on the boots its already evaporated, but the number 2 boot seems to have an oily film on it... when I smelled the rag I wiped it up with. It had like an oily gasy smell to it but not raw 91 octane...

[Javenmcd]

UPDATE: I pulled off/disconnected all the CA emissions crap (charcoal canister removed, disconnected the canister line to the carb and left it venting to atmosphere, fuel tank vent valve removed, disconnected the vent lines that ran to the air vent control valve) and ran temporary clear carb vent lines. Took it for a short ride and warmed it up several times and it didn't flood itself!!!! I did notice that the temporary vent lines I'd run were a little long so they curled back up and collected some fuel in them. Do I still have a float level issue? I set them (inverted) at 1.125" last time I had them off. I did install aftermarket K&L needles and seats so I don't know if that will affect my levels or not.....but hey, I'm making progress.

[cimmer]

Did you replace the 2 jet plugs that are at the bottom of the jet block with new ones or at least check them to make sure they are nice and tight? They have been know to get loose with time as they sit in gasoline all the time. If they are loose they could be allowing fuel to flow up into the Pilot air jet #2 which is in the top of the carb. This could explain the mist and fuel you are seeing after it sits for a while. The fuel is getting hot and expanding as the bike sits and being pushed up and out of the carbs that way. If that old Calif smog crap was not letting air past the fuel would take the path of least resistance.

I know that means pulling the carbs off to check but it is the thing I would do if it was my bike, that is if you didnt replace them.

Hope this help

Rick F.

[Javenmcd]

I didn't replace them....there were some that were looser than others but there weren't any that were what I'd consider really loose. Not sure how snug they should be.

[cimmer]

They should be very snug in the block with the flat sides facing each other. I have the Damon Ferraiuolo video on rebuilding carburetors and he strongly suggest that no matter what you replace in the carb, you need to replace the jet block plugs. It shows him installing them and he has to push hard to get the new ones into their respected holes. Here is a short Youtube of his on rebuilding the carbs. He is doing a Vmax but they are the same carbs as ours.

 

He sells the video on a carb rebuilding and a engine rebuilding. The carburetor video is from start to finish and is very well explained in all steps of disassemble and reassemble with what to watch out for.

He can be contacted at Damon_Ferraiuolo@msn.com for prices and such.

 

Rick F.

[BlueSky]

Check the fuel level per the manual instructions with the engine running to confirm your settings.

[CaseyJ955]

1.125" inverted is correct. I used the Factory Pro website for the visuals. http://www.factorypro.com/Prod_Pages/prody11.html. This is for the Vmax but according to Morley this is ideal for the Venture also.

 

Those Jet Block plugs need to be somewhat snug. If they slip out they are too loose, they should sort of wiggle out more than slip out. If they are hard, shrunk up and dried you can likely rejuvinate them in a bath of one part wintergreen oil/3 parts 91% rubbing alcohol in a sealed container. Mine got a 2 day bath in a shot glass and it worked great. If they are cracked its to late and they must be replaced.

 

If the removal of this stuff works you can try replacing the fuel tank vent and narrow it down. Im going to try to vent mine directly into the charcoal cannister w/o the control valve. Ill decide that after we see what component specifically is causing you grief. Im glad there is progress, the frustration is almost palpable.

[Javenmcd]

Although I'll probably be pulling the carbs again it's awesome that you guys are willing to contribute some possible causes and actions....I'll post an update just for those that are interested.

[cecdoo]

Although I'll probably be pulling the carbs again it's awesome that you guys are willing to contribute some possible causes and actions....I'll post an update just for those that are interested.

 

Hey, we are interested!! So please follow up with any updates. Somebody else is gonna have this same problem down the line and you mite be able to save them alot of grief. Keep at it, you will figure it out!!

 

Craig

[CaseyJ955]

Although I'll probably be pulling the carbs again it's awesome that you guys are willing to contribute some possible causes and actions....I'll post an update just for those that are interested.

. Im very interested, for everyone that has spoken up there are probably several other readers following this.

 

Its great, everyone here is really helpful. I cant begin to quantify all the help I have recieved here, all that I have learned Besides it sucks when someone struggles with ride-preventing issues. We've all been there at some point and its cool when folks are so willing to help. We'll get you on the road, then what is learned will help someone somewhere with the same issue. I know this will help me remove a potential issue from my bike and decalifornicate it. When we help each other out everyone wins.

[snyper316]

. Im very interested, for everyone that has spoken up there are probably several other readers following this.

 

Its great, everyone here is really helpful. I cant begin to quantify all the help I have recieved here, all that I have learned Besides it sucks when someone struggles with ride-preventing issues. We've all been there at some point and its cool when folks are so willing to help. We'll get you on the road, then what is learned will help someone somewhere with the same issue. I know this will help me remove a potential issue from my bike and decalifornicate it. When we help each other out everyone wins.

 

Heck me and him learned last night that his carbs have rubber float valves and mine is I am guess just copper? No rubber tip on mine what so ever.... Which I never realized till last night when I was looking at a rebuild kit that saved me $80.00 all together in parts. Crazy all I can use in the kit is the rubber gaskets but by getting a vmax set I saved $80.00 alone just in those parts, that is not including the valves as those I won't be using....