Brake caliper clean-up

[CaseyJ955]

I have a general question about brake calipers. I have been servicing my own brakes/clutches for a looong time but I have never taken one apart and reassembled without kitting it. I have read a few posts about guys "cleaning the pistons" and I'm feeling around to see if anyone has had real luck pulling the calipers apart, cleaning internally and resembling without honing and new seals? Assuming of course lack of significant wear which would obviously require the above mentioned kitting.

 

I just hung R6 calipers all around and after bleeding they seem to drag a bit to, but the pistons seemed to move ok before install. Maybe I need to pull them and do some cleaning, or just put a few miles on them to see what happens since I just slapped them on with the old pads and all (I plan on the HH pads later on). Any input welcome. Normally I would have just kitted them and installed the new pads without pissing about but $ is all tied up elsewhere and the pads/calipers seemed in very good shape, so figured I would roll the dice. It seems counterintuitive that a caliper can be disassembled, cleaned and put back together without leaks but if some of you folks have been able to do just that I would love to know. If I pull the calipers I'm putting new pads in but I would really rather not spring for the kits if I can avoid that $200 expense, also if I do need kits are there any other than the spendy OEM kits that are quality and not from China? I have rarely had good luck with non-OEM items on Japanese vehicles. BTW they are the blue dot calipers from an R6, not sure that makes much difference.

 

Thanks for input!

[garyS-NJ]

I've pushed out Caliper pistols for cleaning the pistons and spraying out the caliper body.. Without buying new pistons or seals. You have to do one piston at a time in order to maintain fluid pressure to get the others out. But as long as the pistons aren't jammed up in there then an air compressor line blowing on the fluid in line should push the pucks out. You should be able to remove the pads and partially push out pucks to inspect them. I've even polished pucks in the calipers with them pushed out like this

 

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[mmaleney]

The blue dot calipers you have could be from 1999 so that would make them 17 years old also they may have sat on a shelf some where for years so there could be lots of dry brake dust in there. I don't think you will need new seals, but like Gary said clean one at a time. Good luck.

[CaseyJ955]

yes, these are from 99-03 I believe. I used front right and left to replace my fronts, and a front right to replace my rear. Oddly enough, I was able to bleed the rear with the caliper mounted in place.

 

Come to think about it, now that they are bled out the lever is pretty firm, almost no give, which would indicate the pistons are not retracting the .004" or so they should when the brakes are released. With the brakes linked and bled they were soft, squishy and inconsistent.

 

I'll pull each caliper and use air to pop the pucks out so I can get a good clean inside and around. I'm not sure how long these calipers were off the bikes before I bought them and I know DOT draws moisture from the atmosphere quickly so they could have been nasty inside just from being shelved. I'll order the new pads and take em' off and clean em' out. Still hoping I wont have to hone/kit any of them. I doubt they are very mile-heavy, I havnt seen to many R6s stack up tons of use and the pads look OEM and pretty darn good, so I'm guessing just gunk from being stored. Using the old seals, is there anything I should use to prelube them during reassembly?

 

Are we using the HH pads or whats recommended for a good long life, decent stopping power and priced right?

 

Thanks again for all the info, I hope this will help others save a couple bucks around brake-O'clock as well.

[mmaleney]

The HH pad may eat through you're Mk2 rotors and may cause the rear tire to skid I know they will on the Mk1, the black EBC pads are just as good for stopping power and very easy on rotors. good luck.

[BlueSky]

If you do any honing such as polishing the cylinders with fine sandpaper do it circumferentially to prevent leaks.

[CaseyJ955]

It all sounds like a good plan. When it warms up above the -5 it was today I'll start plucking calipers and going through them. Ordering the pads now.

 

Thanks!!

[garyS-NJ]

If you do any honing such as polishing the cylinders with fine sandpaper do it circumferentially to prevent leaks.

Do it circumferentially? Nice word.

 

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[garyS-NJ]

It can't hurt that much to clean out calipers but it is work and I wouldn't do it if a good bleed and good ride didn't clear things up. And then id want to identify the specific caliper that's dragging. Which brake master feels "hard", front or rear? Just delinking can do that to the rears. So after riding, on center stand, which wheel is dragging? With a $15 temperature gun, which caliper is hot? Check your master cylinder return holes are clear. And first gen with linked brakes and no bleeder at the fork neck is notoriously hard to bleed hence your squishy brakes? And delinking without a rear caliper swap will lead to a wooden rear brake feel due to mismatch in the master now only driving one caliper.. How did you do the delink? And after some research, I bought the ebc hh pads for my fronts but aren't installing till I do fork seals. First I heard here about them eating rotors as I thought the oem pads were same semimetallic. And does the r6 caliper upgrade command a front master cylinder change? I installed the slightly larger 2nd gen master when I delinked and fronts are still soft (& so rears just skid and my bike don't stop well enough, oem brakes on these are nfg for 1000 lbs rolling).

 

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[garyS-NJ]

And don't forget a good bleed with your antidives

 

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[CaseyJ955]

It can't hurt that much to clean out calipers but it is work and I wouldn't do it if a good bleed and good ride didn't clear things up. And then id want to identify the specific caliper that's dragging. Which brake master feels "hard", front or rear? Just delinking can do that to the rears. So after riding, on center stand, which wheel is dragging? With a $15 temperature gun, which caliper is hot? Check your master cylinder return holes are clear. And first gen with linked brakes and no bleeder at the fork neck is notoriously hard to bleed hence your squishy brakes? And delinking without a rear caliper swap will lead to a wooden rear brake feel due to mismatch in the master now only driving one caliper.. How did you do the delink? And after some research, I bought the ebc hh pads for my fronts but aren't installing till I do fork seals. First I heard here about them eating rotors as I thought the oem pads were same semimetallic. And does the r6 caliper upgrade command a front master cylinder change? I installed the slightly larger 2nd gen master when I delinked and fronts are still soft (& so rears just skid and my bike don't stop well enough, oem brakes on these are nfg for 1000 lbs rolling).

 

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Thought I might roll it up to Custer and back to see if they loosen up. I delinked the brakes at the same time I installed these calipers. On the rear I used a front right R6 caliper. The pedal is firm but not to much so, definitely better than before the delinking. I removed the spring and plunger from the proportioning valve and plugged the front like outlet off the rear MC. Other than a slight drag on the wheel it works like a charm. The drag is less than with the OEM calipers which were dragging a bit more. I hope that was what was causing my 25mpg issue.

 

On the front one of the OEM calipers was dragging notably, enough that removing it was a hammer and brass drift affair. The rotors are not showing any heat discoloration or excessive wear. Well I delinked with a Vmax splitter and some braided lines. In order to bleed the brakes I had to use vacuum to pull the fluid down some then I could bleed in the traditional way. The fronts were a chore. MC holes are all clear and clean. Now that the fronts are bled the lever is pretty firm where as before it was squishy, sometimes squishy enough to nearly bottom the lever against the grip, so I was both pleased and surprised that it firmed up so nicely. maybe even a little to firm, which I attributed to the pistons not retracting when the brake is released. If riding it and getting the calipers nice and warm with some use loosens them up then I'm golden. I'm assuming with aged used calipers it might not hurt to go ahead and clean them out. I know when calipers sit on the shelf any residual fliud continues to pull moisture from the atmosphere and leave a nasty sludge inside, starting to think thats what happened here.

 

My antidives are electric solenoids, is there something I need to do with them during bleeding? I thought the older ones were hydraulic but I cant say what year they were changed. Mine is 89.

 

EDIT; On the front MC, it's stock, I thought the gen 1.2 had a slightly different MC than 86 back but dont quote me on the years. It's too firm now so when the calipers loosen up I'm assuming the lever will soften slightly. I hope it will stop this heavy turd, I may just go with some new R6 OEM pads, I'm not finding much in the way of EBC non HH. I hope the R6 pinchers will provide enough extra gription to call adequate.

Edited December 9, 2016 by CaseyJ955

[garyS-NJ]

Brakes shouldn't drag you down to 25mpg. I thought you had earlier bike so no on the antidives.

 

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[camos]

Well I delinked with a Vmax splitter and some braided lines. In order to bleed the brakes I had to use vacuum to pull the fluid down some then I could bleed in the traditional way.

There is likely something wrong there as the MC should be able to fill the lines without the aid of a vacuum pump. If starting from empty it might take a few fillings of the reservoir to get fluid to the calipers.

 

The fronts were a chore. MC holes are all clear and clean. Now that the fronts are bled the lever is pretty firm where as before it was squishy, sometimes squishy enough to nearly bottom the lever against the grip,

There is normally some give when applying the brakes but squishy or very squishy is air that has not been bled out. If there is any squishy after bleeding with enough fluid to fill the line then perhaps you should focus on the method you are using to do the bleeding.

 

... so I was both pleased and surprised that it firmed up so nicely. maybe even a little to firm, which I attributed to the pistons not retracting when the brake is released.

A stuck piston will require more force to apply the brakes and will also prevent the piston from retracting. The only way to know for certain whether a stuck piston is causing problems is to take the caliper off and apply the brake. If all 4 pistons do not move out at the same rate the short pistons are sticking and need to be cleaned.

 

A couple of weeks ago I spent more than 4 hours cleaning two sticky pistons on the front caliper by pushing them out part way cleaning then pushing back in and repeating until they moved freely. That was probably a waste of time and could have been done faster by pushing one piston all the way out at a time for cleaning. That is just a guess on my part since I have never tried removing the pistons.

 

My antidives are electric solenoids, is there something I need to do with them during bleeding? I thought the older ones were hydraulic but I cant say what year they were changed. Mine is 89.

The anti dives on the MkII have nothing to do with the brakes, they are activated by the brake light switch.

 

It's too firm now so when the calipers loosen up I'm assuming the lever will soften slightly. I hope it will stop this heavy turd, I may just go with some new R6 OEM pads, I'm not finding much in the way of EBC non HH. I hope the R6 pinchers will provide enough extra gription to call adequate.

The calipers are unlikely to loosen much if at all on their own. I have been using EBC FA123HH pads front and back on both my Ventures since 2010 and have not noticed any excessive wear on the rotors. There is likely some but they are not fading away to a shadow of their former glory.

 

If they are working properly the OEM brakes with HH pads will stop the MkII's as fast as they can be stopped. No need to upgrade the rotors although I don't know how that might be different after de-linking.

[garyS-NJ]

There is likely something wrong there as the MC should be able to fill the lines without the aid of a vacuum pump. If starting from empty it might take a few fillings of the reservoir to get fluid to the calipers.

 

There is normally some give when applying the brakes but squishy or very squishy is air that has not been bled out. If there is any squishy after bleeding with enough fluid to fill the line then perhaps you should focus on the method you are using to do the bleeding.

 

A stuck piston will require more force to apply the brakes and will also prevent the piston from retracting. The only way to know for certain whether a stuck piston is causing problems is to take the caliper off and apply the brake. If all 4 pistons do not move out at the same rate the short pistons are sticking and need to be cleaned.

 

A couple of weeks ago I spent more than 4 hours cleaning two sticky pistons on the front caliper by pushing them out part way cleaning then pushing back in and repeating until they moved freely. That was probably a waste of time and could have been done faster by pushing one piston all the way out at a time for cleaning. That is just a guess on my part since I have never tried removing the pistons.

 

The anti dives on the MkII have nothing to do with the brakes, they are activated by the brake light switch.

 

The calipers are unlikely to loosen much if at all on their own. I have been using EBC FA123HH pads front and back on both my Ventures since 2010 and have not noticed any excessive wear on the rotors. There is likely some but they are not fading away to a shadow of their former glory.

 

If they are working properly the OEM brakes with HH pads will stop the MkII's as fast as they can be stopped. No need to upgrade the rotors although I don't know how that might be different after de-linking.

I don't think the one brakes can stop a venture as fast as they can be stopped. Maybe about as fast as they can be safely stopped by a typical rider but more pad area and pinch power, especially on the fronts would stop one faster.. Isn't that why so many people do the r1 r6 caliper upgrade?

 

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[camos]

I don't think the one brakes can stop a venture as fast as they can be stopped. Maybe about as fast as they can be safely stopped by a typical rider but more pad area and pinch power, especially on the fronts would stop one faster.. Isn't that why so many people do the r1 r6 caliper upgrade?

 

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I am missing your meaning of "one brakes". I use all three brakes and most often apply the front lever first then the rear pedal. When coming to a stop easing up on the lever while the pedal is pressed makes for a more even stop with less dive. The brakes are still linked so squeezing the lever only does not have quite the same effect as it would if they were de-linked. I think the MkII's have good brakes/calipers while the MkI's are a bit anaemic and benefit most from upgrading the calipers, at least so I have read on here. Upgrading to the R1/R6 calipers on the MkII is apparently still an improvement but not so dramatic and, at least to me, is not worth the expense.

 

I mostly ride one up without a trailer so a bit lighter than two up on a journey. After loading to the hilt on a Costco run the bike can still stop as fast as I would want it to. It is my theory that many who complain about the brakes not being good enough on the MkII have sticky pistons and or air in the lines.