Made the mistake of checking the coolant level last week.

[videoarizona]

Yeppers. Some problems showed up.

 

1: The coolant overflow/reserve bottle top broke. No kidding, the top split in two. Top half and bottom half. Got some glue on it now but found that to be interesting that it would break. Not sure if the glue will hold so will start looking for a replacement soon.

 

2: The coolant level looked good in the bottle. Then I looked a bit harder. Hmm. Grabbed a pencil and stuck it in the bottle.....the end of the pencil came out with a coating of "stuff". Looked like motor oil and consistency of honey! What the...?

 

I haven't had time to look and see what the heck is going on, but seems to be the coolant bottle is isolated from the rest of the system as the coolant itself is a nice green color. And the scoot doesn't overheat....even in Arizona's summer.

 

Guess I'll try to find some time this weekend to look and see if the hose is plugged...which is my first guess. Anyone ever run into this problem?

 

No pics. I'm to tired after a nice weekend sailing the lake. We anchored out in a cove...six little yachts. Pic of boat is my Scotch Mist, 23ft Aquarius.

[M61A1MECH]

That is the classic symptom of the water pump seals gone bad. There is a driven shaft that comes from the motor thru an oil seal and a coolant seal that drives the water pump, they have been known to go bad and let oil get pushed into the oil.

 

Because the oil will float on the coolant it tends to gather in the top of the radiator where it will find its way to the over flow drain and into the coolant recovery bottle, where it floats on top of the coolant.

Edited November 23, 2016 by M61A1MECH
Added some additional information

[bongobobny]

Yup!! What Steve said!!

[yamagrl]

I have read the Twinkie can cause that also.

 

I have an extra reservoir but it will be difficult for me to get to it at the moment. If no one else comes up with one I'll figure a way to get it off.

 

Yg

[cowpuc]

ALL great advice (as always) IMHO..

I have had both the "oil seal" and the "Water seal" on the impellar shaft fail on the water pump(s) on my MK1's and both resulted in leakage from the weep hole on the bottom of the pump before contamination occurred.. My water cooled MX bikes were all internal water pumps that would leak into the case when a seal went and you could easily see the oil turning into chocolate milk but they were not designed with the weep hole... Vaz, IMHO,, ya might check and see if the weep hole is open on the bottom of the water pump and see if your picking up any oil from there. Because that weep area is located between the oil seal and ceramic water seal, if there is a seal problem associated with the impellar shaft it really should show up there as long as the weep hole is open.. Does that make sense??

Another thing I would do if it was mine is pull the rad cap itself and check it closely for oil contamination,,, maybe you or a previous owner some how got some oil mixed in with some antifreeze and its just showing up after a top off.. I have never had "Twinkie" problems but have heard of some folks who have too.. Never even had one apart but my understanding is that both oil and coolant frequent that area - thinking I would follow up on Yamagrl's suggestion if it does show to be an actual issue and its not water pump related..

 

Vaz,, you in need of the whole tank or just the cap?

[BlueSky]

Okay, I'll bite! What the heck is a "Twinkie"?

[bongobobny]

I have read the Twinkie can cause that also.

 

I have an extra reservoir but it will be difficult for me to get to it at the moment. If no one else comes up with one I'll figure a way to get it off.

 

Yg

You're the second person this week to mention that the oil cooler (twinkie) can cause this! Myself I can't remember hearing of this but yes I suppose it's possible. I just can't remember if there is a common mating surface for oil and coolant to mix, been too long! Another remote possibility would be the cylinder head water jacket joint if the o rings deteriorated, but Yamaha suggests only removing them if absolutely necessary, such as overhauling the heads. The usual source that I have heard is the water pump seals wearing as it is a dynamic seal, more prone to failure than a static seal. Of course, you can't rule out blown head gaskets either, but chances are the engine would run rough. A good compression test and leak down test would diagnose this...

 

Blue Sky, the "Twinkie is the oil cooler that sits between the front and rear head and got its name because it sort of looks like a twinkie, and in a way has a filling...

[yamagrl]

ALL great advice (as always) IMHO..

I have had both the "oil seal" and the "Water seal" on the impellar shaft fail on the water pump(s) on my MK1's and both resulted in leakage from the weep hole on the bottom of the pump before contamination occurred.. My water cooled MX bikes were all internal water pumps that would leak into the case when a seal went and you could easily see the oil turning into chocolate milk but they were not designed with the weep hole... Vaz, IMHO,, ya might check and see if the weep hole is open on the bottom of the water pump and see if your picking up any oil from there. Because that weep area is located between the oil seal and ceramic water seal, if there is a seal problem associated with the impellar shaft it really should show up there as long as the weep hole is open.. Does that make sense??

Another thing I would do if it was mine is pull the rad cap itself and check it closely for oil contamination,,, maybe you or a previous owner some how got some oil mixed in with some antifreeze and its just showing up after a top off.. I have never had "Twinkie" problems but have heard of some folks who have too.. Never even had one apart but my understanding is that both oil and coolant frequent that area - thinking I would follow up on Yamagrl's suggestion if it does show to be an actual issue and its not water pump related..

 

Vaz,, you in need of the whole tank or just the cap?

 

Okay, I'll bite! What the heck is a "Twinkie"?

 

The Twinkie is that thing under the carbs it has both oil and coolant separated by an orings.

 

Big Red's was leaking coolant so I rebuilt it. Disassembled, it is obvious that oil/coolant could transfer within this component.

 

Items 36-40 and a few others http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1989/VENTURE+ROYALE+-+XVZ13DW/RADIATOR+HOSE/parts.html

 

Oil and coolant can intermix in the head gasket also. I would start with a compression test before I messed with the Twinkie. You have to remove the Karbs to get it out.

 

Heather

[yamagrl]

Be sure to drain the cooling system if you have to tear into the Twinkie.

 

Heather

[videoarizona]

ALL great advice (as always) IMHO..

I have had both the "oil seal" and the "Water seal" on the impellar shaft fail on the water pump(s) on my MK1's and both resulted in leakage from the weep hole on the bottom of the pump before contamination occurred.. My water cooled MX bikes were all internal water pumps that would leak into the case when a seal went and you could easily see the oil turning into chocolate milk but they were not designed with the weep hole... Vaz, IMHO,, ya might check and see if the weep hole is open on the bottom of the water pump and see if your picking up any oil from there. Because that weep area is located between the oil seal and ceramic water seal, if there is a seal problem associated with the impellar shaft it really should show up there as long as the weep hole is open.. Does that make sense??

Another thing I would do if it was mine is pull the rad cap itself and check it closely for oil contamination,,, maybe you or a previous owner some how got some oil mixed in with some antifreeze and its just showing up after a top off.. I have never had "Twinkie" problems but have heard of some folks who have too.. Never even had one apart but my understanding is that both oil and coolant frequent that area - thinking I would follow up on Yamagrl's suggestion if it does show to be an actual issue and its not water pump related..

 

Vaz,, you in need of the whole tank or just the cap?

 

Hi Scott,

 

I'm going to try and get to her this weekend. But may not as I have company coming for the Holidays. I've moved the 89 Blue Beastie into the center of the garage, getting her ready for some tear down I wanted to do anyway. So whenever I get started I will take some pics and keep everyone up to date.

 

Understand about the weep hole...will check. Thanks for tip! Have not seen anything on the floor...so that may be good news.

 

The tank is good I think, just the black cap broke. Weird. I used some 6000 glue on it. Figured if it holds the street reflectors on the hot asphalt around here, it must be good enough for the cap, right?

 

But I'm going to hold off on asking for any help until I see what's really going on. I don't mind if the seals are gone....probably a good idea at this age of scoot to get in there and replace them anyway. I also want to take more plastic off and look at the innerds closer to see if there is any damage from age, falls, etc.,. That plastic does get brittle and I just bought some 1 foot sheets of 1/8th inch ABS to use for rebuilding things if needed. Going to try my hand at that!

 

Also want to check the light frame on top that holds the instrument cluster and headlight area for bends and such, since I've had two parking lot falls on left side...which did move some of the top over to the right an inch. I fixed the plastics on the left side...and repainted...but now have time to look for any other damage that might be hidden in there.

 

We shall see.

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. And...

 

Happy Thanksgiving!

[cowpuc]

I know,, I know I know,, I am a little touched and come off with some off the wall kind of things but,,, I wonder if a previous owner over tightened the cap on the res, split it open and then repaired it with some sealant. The sealant got hot and deteriorated over time and formed a goo on the anti freeze.. Not to be discovered until David discovered the split cap..

 

Hey Captain Vaz = LOVE your ship brother!!

[yamagrl]

Below is a screenshot of the Lubrication Diagram Pg 8-23 in the 86-93 manual. It appears that the only common areas of coolant and oil is the Water Pump and the Twinkie. It doesn't look as though oil passes through the head gasket but coolant does.

 

That means that if the head gasket were faulty then the sludge would be a due to air/fuel as well as combustion by-product mixing with coolant. You might get an idea by running the engine with the radiator cap off. I think exhaust gas, etc. would bubble out.

 

I have an 89 with the same issue. I haven't had the time to figure it out yet. I have my fingers crossed for the water pump or the twinkie.

 

[camos]

I would start with a compression test before I messed with the Twinkie. You have to remove the Karbs to get it out.

Remove the carbs to get the twinkie off? I thought it was just a little thing that allowed a couple of hose connections. My 90 has the oil in the coolant problem so I pulled the twinkie cover off but did not try to remove the whole thing. It is just one of those things I'll get to eventually if the 90 does not become a parts bike first.

[yamagrl]

Remove the carbs to get the twinkie off? I thought it was just a little thing that allowed a couple of hose connections. My 90 has the oil in the coolant problem so I pulled the twinkie cover off but did not try to remove the whole thing. It is just one of those things I'll get to eventually if the 90 does not become a parts bike first.

 

It happens to be one of those things... You might be able to finagle the Twinkie out and back in without removing the carbs, but since you are already there, removing them would take less than 10 minutes to remove the air box, loosen the clamps on the boots,remove the cables and slide 'em out. I'm certain that it would've taken me a couple more hours and a lot more frustration had I left them in when I removed the Twinkie. I also think the mounting screws may be too long. Been there... and I don't think it would be worth it to even try...

 

Heather

[yamagrl]

I think we are going to see a lot more reports of oil/sludge in the coolant in these older bikes and there doesn't seem to be a lot of solid answers. But what ever seal is the culprit is only going to get older (like the rest of us!) and become more more prone to failure.

 

I suggest we keep our eyes on this one. Whatever we figure it out to be will most likely end up being a fairly easy fix.

[M61A1MECH]

I have been seeing a lot of reports of the water pump associated seals going bad in the past few years, when it happened to me on my 98 Royal Star a number of years ago, it stumped the service manager and I both. We did compression checks, leak down tests and did the same research on the coolant and oil flow systems we have done in this thread and came to the realization it was almost certainly the shaft seals on the water pump's driven shaft. I do not recall any one having a bad twinky, but anything is possible.

[camos]

I'm certain that it would've taken me a couple more hours and a lot more frustration had I left them in when I removed the Twinkie. I also think the mounting screws may be too long. Been there... and I don't think it would be worth it to even try...

 

Heather

If the mounting screws are long does that mean the bottom part of the Twinkie extends quite a way into the engine case? Besides the gasket, are there O-rings that might need to be replaced?

[yamagrl]

If the mounting screws are long does that mean the bottom part of the Twinkie extends quite a way into the engine case? Besides the gasket, are there O-rings that might need to be replaced?

 

 

 

1. The Twinkie sits on top and if I recall the mounting screws are about 6x35 mm.

 

2. Yes there are 6 crush washers and two orings that are actually part of the oil gallery but are only accessible from beneath the Twinkie. (I did the second gear repair on Big Red in 2014 and in order to get to the transmission the entire oil gallery must come out. So I replaced all of the oil gallery seals except those two.)

They are #26, 28 & 31 here http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1989/VENTURE+ROYALE+-+XVZ13DW/OIL+FILTER/parts.html

 

The crush washers can be replaced with copper crush washers found on Ebay cheap. I ordered about 50 each of 6,8,10,12mm crush washers from China and I think the enire cost was about $10. These are used all over the bike, brakes etc. They are kind of universal like a metric screw.

 

The seals for the Twinkie are #38 & 40 here http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1989/VENTURE+ROYALE+-+XVZ13DW/RADIATOR+HOSE/parts.html

 

​Heather

[camos]

All good to know if I ever need to get in there. It is so much better to be prepared with parts before opening up anything to do with the engine.

 

Thanks Heather, you have come through again.

[videoarizona]

Latest:

 

 

Finally decided to get down and dirty. Picture of "stuff".

 

The seep hole in the bottom of the water pump is dry.

 

Took off radiator cap and nice green coolant came out...no oil.

 

No coolant in oil either.

 

So...I can only conclude that the seals in the water pump did go south at one point as there is evidence the PO used a sealant of some type on cover and there are old stains on aluminum around bottom of pump. This junk may be left over from previous problem (not flushed out) and finally collected at top of coolant bottle.

 

My plan now is to clean out the bottle and fill with coolant to proper level and run it like I stole it. In a month or so...re-check the coolant bottle and see what's there.

 

It has never overheated in the Arizona sun....even while idling in summer heat The fan is obviously doing it's job as well. BTW, the radiator cap is an original I think and does not have any "stops" when tightening it. It simply tightens and stops. Never leaked yet.

 

As a side note... the bike has been down on right side as there is a tiny crease of the infamous water pump pipe next to the crash bar. Will take off the crash bar and grind down the area that can cause problems if I lose it on right side. That crease was hard to see but it's there.

 

NOW....how the heck does the coolant bottle come off????? :think:

Edited November 29, 2016 by videoarizona
clarification

[snyper316]

 

NOW....how the heck does the coolant bottle come off????? :think:

 

Unless someone knows a trick that I don't you take the black cover off and just maybe get in there and pull it up. I am not for sure because when I was messing with mine the right fairing was completely off.

[videoarizona]

Unless someone knows a trick that I don't you take the black cover off and just maybe get in there and pull it up. I am not for sure because when I was messing with mine the right fairing was completely off.

 

Have to admit, that does look like a possibility. I just didn't want to get in there and yank to hard and break something.

Thanks, I'll give it a go tomorrow!

[bongobobny]

Hmmmm, been a long time, but I think there is a bolt that holds it onto the inner fairing as well as the plastic fingers that go into the inner fairing that you lift out of...

[videoarizona]

Hmmmm, been a long time, but I think there is a bolt that holds it onto the inner fairing as well as the plastic fingers that go into the inner fairing that you lift out of...

 

 

Bob, Do you know where I can find it on the parts list? Or in the manual? Either I'm blind or it simply doesn't exist in the manuals. If I could find a pic of it, I could figure out how it's stuck in the cavity!

[videoarizona]

I finally found it. In the parts section. But nothing to indicate there is anything holding it in. Guess it must slip up.

 

Update:

 

I feel "STOOPID"...yea. The coolant recovery bottle on the 89 VR simply lifts up. It's mounted on a track and you disconnect the two hoses and lift. Came right up.

 

Lordy...there are times when I wonder what I was thinking last week when I was looking at it wondering how to get it off without breaking anything. Darn yamaha engineers were sure smarter than I when they designed that bottle!!

 

So now it's sitting in the sink, filled with Simple Green and some hot water...cleaning.

 

Sigh...now back to your regularly scheduled program...

Edited November 30, 2016 by videoarizona