Clutch will not disengage

[Formerfuzz]

Over the last several rides I noticed the clutch lever wasn't able to pull all the back, disengaging the clutch. It finally would not disengage and I was unable to shift, resulting in getting it towed home.

 

Is this a Clutch master cyclinder problem?

 

Thanks,

Tim

Edited October 9, 2016 by Formerfuzz

[snyper316]

Do you have fluid in reservoir

 

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[snyper316]

Sounds like maybe air in the lines.

 

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[Formerfuzz]

I Checked the resovoir and fluid is full but is very old and needs replaced, which is my first plan of action. Would that prevent the clutch lever from pulling in?

[VanRiver]

Hi Formerfuzz Thanks for clarifying that the lever will not "Pull in". This is rather an interesting situation as usually the typical scenario is the lever pulls in too easy but does not actuate the clutch due to air in the lines or low fluid. I'm wonder if you have a corroded/seized master or slave cylinder.

 

Although I have never personally had this exact situation on one of my bikes, I would suggest the following troubleshooting approach:

 

1. No matter what, draining and replacing your fluid should be done....plus it is cheap and easy to do. I would open the master cylinder reservoir and suck out any old fluid, and maybe even open the top banjo bolt or even the blender valve on the slave cylinder too and see if you can at least get the handle pulling in and out smoothly again with no fluid pressure on it. If the handle is still stuck with no fluid and pressure then you have a bad master cylinder.

 

2. Next I would open up the banjo bolts at the master and at the low connection point on the slave and see if you can blow air/fluid all the way through to confirm you don't have a blocked line/hose.

 

3. If the handle pulls fine with no fluid pressure and the lines/hose is free and clear then I would focus my attention on the clutch slave cylinder being sieved up and needing to be replaced.

 

Long story short I don't think this is just a "Old fluid" issue, but I could be wrong, and I like being wrong in situations like this. But the good news is replacement Master and Slave cylinders are relatively easy to find fairly economical....ebay is your friend. Also if it is completely seized like you describe then I would not try to "rebuild" the offending cylinder as the corrosion would need to be EXTREMELY BAD to be completely seized up and would probably be safer to just replace it.

 

Also please remember that Brake fluid LOVES to eat Paint!!!!! Keep all your plastic and painted surface protected while you are doing all this troubleshooting as brake fluid sprays and flows like water. Don't ask how I know this...just trust me.

 

 

I Checked the resovoir and fluid is full but is very old and needs replaced, which is my first plan of action. Would that prevent the clutch lever from pulling in?

Edited October 9, 2016 by VanRiver

[Formerfuzz]

Van River, thanks for the points of diagnosis to my problem. This gives me a place to start. I am hoping the master cylinder is my problem and I can get back to riding soon while we have great weather. I'll provide updates on my findings.

[Condor]

This one's got me befuddled. Generally when the lever is hard to pull and gets a hydra-lock the clutch will start to slip, not lock up. I'd go ahead and bleed the clutch anyway. Not a big deal.. Just make sure the fluid level is only half the way up the reserve sight glass when finished. On a 2009 I highly doubt there's anything wrong with the slave or master.... These bikes can go a long time... not recomended... with Black ink for fluid and still function OK.

 

PS: I tried to send you some instructions on reverse bleeding the clutch, but you're not set up to receive PM's.....

Edited October 9, 2016 by Condor

[yamagrl]

Crack open the bleed screw on the slave and squeese the clutch lever. (Be sure to put a hose on the bleed screw to prevent fluid from making a mess). This will tell you whether to look "North" or "South" of the bleed screw. (Also, be sure to not allow the fluid level to be depleted and do not allow air to be introduced through the bleed screw)

 

If the lever moves properly then the master and lines are not likely the cause and the problem is either related to the slave or to the clutch itself.

 

This how I often troubleshoot electrical issues. Find a mid-point and determine in which direction the problem lies. Toubleshooting hydraulics/plumbing issues and electrical issues are similar in that "something" is being sent though "something"

 

YG

Edited October 9, 2016 by yamagrl
typo

[Formerfuzz]

This morning I siphoned out the old fluid from the reservoir. The clutch lever works okay with no pressure. I cleaned out the resovoir and filled with fresh fluid and began bleeding until I got clear fluid. After pumping the lever to get the pressure back I had the same problem. The lever will only pull in about an inch and the clutch will not disengage. Obviously when attempting to put into gear it kills the motor.

 

Yamagrl, I didn't check the master cylinder by your method. I'll go out and see if it works by opening the bleeder valve.

**Clutch lever works freely with bleeder valve open and now closed. Actually feels very soft as I pull it. I hear clicking at the slave as I pull clutch lever in. clutch still not disengaging.

 

So, are we thinking Slave Cylinder seized up and how difficult is it to replace?

 

Goose used to help me with my 1999 RSV before I traded it for my 2009, but unfortunately for me he moved away from the DFW area.

 

Thanks for the input.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Formerfuzz

[yamagrl]

This morning I siphoned out the old fluid from the reservoir. The clutch lever works okay with no pressure. I cleaned out the resovoir and filled with fresh fluid and began bleeding until I got clear fluid. After pumping the lever to get the pressure back I had the same problem. The lever will only pull in about an inch and the clutch will not disengage. Obviously when attempting to put into gear it kills the motor.

 

Yamagrl, I didn't check the master cylinder by your method. I'll go out and see if it works by opening the bleeder valve.

**Clutch lever works freely with bleeder valve open and now closed. Actually feels very soft as I pull it. I hear clicking at the slave as I pull clutch lever in. clutch still not disengaging.

 

So, are we thinking Slave Cylinder seized up and how difficult is it to replace?

 

Goose used to help me with my 1999 RSV but unfortunately for me he moved away from the DFW area.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

 

 

 

If the master seems to be working properly, you get fluid flow and builds pressure then the cause is likely "South".

 

There's not much south of there... just the rest of the slave, the push rod (goes through the engine to the clutch), and the clutch itself.

 

The slave seems like it might be the next thing to check out. The slave is fairly simple and consists only of the body, the piston, a spring and a couple of seals. It's not so much that it's hard to change but it is a little tricky to finagle the thing out of and into the limited space where it goes.

 

Be sure to use a hand impact driver to loosen the two mounting screws that hold the slave on. They can become a problem if you strip out the screw heads. If you don't already have a hand impact you can get one from Harbor Freight for about 8 dollars. Just don't try to out-smart those two screws. They are allen head. If your allen driver spins in the screw you can mushroom it back in by placing a 3/8" extension against the screw head and whacking it smartly with a hammer.

 

I'm more familiar with 1st Gens but they're basically the same. You should be getting some tips from 2nd Genners.

 

When it comes time to bleed it here is what @Condor posted to me about reverse bleeding.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?112034-help!-Need-help-on-bleeding-clutch-line&p=941392#post941392

 

Here is a "Read Only" on reverse bleeding. http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?10517-Reverse-Brake-Bleeding

 

Here's the parts breakdown http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/2009/ROYAL+STAR+VENTURE+-+XVZ13TFYR/CLUTCH/parts.html

[yamagrl]

@Formerfuzz Are you going to SE Texas MD at van avery 's next weekend 10-15 in Sweeny, TX? Even if you don't have it fixed yet someone can show you how.

 

SE Texas MD

Edited October 9, 2016 by yamagrl

[Formerfuzz]

YG, thanks for your help. I'm afraid I have gotten air back into the bleeder valve when checking it, so I may need to start over. It doesn't seem to be pressuring up now. The lever seems soft with no resistance. I read Condors posts on reverse bleeding, now I just need to comprehend what he is saying. Looks like I may be down for a while until I get this figured out. 😟

[yamagrl]

YG, thanks for your help. I'm afraid I have gotten air back into the bleeder valve when checking it, so I may need to start over. It doesn't seem to be pressuring up now. The lever seems soft with no resistance. I read Condors posts on reverse bleeding, now I just need to comprehend what he is saying. Looks like I may be down for a while until I get this figured out. 😟

 

 

Don't spend a lot of time on bleeding right now. You have likely determined that it is not related to the master or the lines. That means that the next likely thing is the slave and you'll have to bleed after messing with that.

 

[yamagrl]

 

3. If the handle pulls fine with no fluid pressure and the lines/hose is free and clear then I would focus my attention on the clutch slave cylinder being sieved up and needing to be replaced.

 

Long story short I don't think this is just a "Old fluid" issue, but I could be wrong, and I like being wrong in situations like this. But the good news is replacement Master and Slave cylinders are relatively easy to find fairly economical....ebay is your friend. Also if it is completely seized like you describe then I would not try to "rebuild" the offending cylinder as the corrosion would need to be EXTREMELY BAD to be completely seized up and would probably be safer to just replace it.

 

Also please remember that Brake fluid LOVES to eat Paint!!!!! Keep all your plastic and painted surface protected while you are doing all this troubleshooting as brake fluid sprays and flows like water. Don't ask how I know this...just trust me.

 

This is what I think also.

[Formerfuzz]

Well it's was to satisfy my own mind anyway. I double checked and it does seem to have pressure and resistance at the lever. Guess I better start studying Slave Cylinder replacement. I welcome anyone with knowledge of this in my area to assist. It would be greatly appreciated.

[van avery]

I have heard of cases where older hydraulic line will make like fish scales inside and block the inside of the line when pressured up.

I once had a 83 venture that the clutch acted that way. I squeezed it really hard and things straightened out.

Just a side note if the screws "Hex head type" are the same as on a 1st gen do not use the cheap ball head Allen wrench from harbor freight the ball end will break off if they are too tight. I got lucky and a magnet pulled the little ball out. I then invested in the correct Allen socket.

When you get the screws out and move the wiring and brackets out of the way you drift the slave cylinder down and twist and it will come out. Note how because it has to go back.

Good luck

[Formerfuzz]

I have heard of cases where older hydraulic line will make like fish scales inside and block the inside of the line when pressured up.

I once had a 83 venture that the clutch acted that way. I squeezed it really hard and things straightened out.

Just a side note if the screws "Hex head type" are the same as on a 1st gen do not use the cheap ball head Allen wrench from harbor freight the ball end will break off if they are too tight. I got lucky and a magnet pulled the little ball out. I then invested in the correct Allen socket.

When you get the screws out and move the wiring and brackets out of the way you drift the slave cylinder down and twist and it will come out. Note how because it has to go back.

Good luck

 

Thanks, I'll have to feel my way along. A bit scary for a non-mechanic, but I have faith that I'll conquer it.

[yamagrl]

Thanks, I'll have to feel my way along. A bit scary for a non-mechanic, but I have faith that I'll conquer it.

 

Well it's was to satisfy my own mind anyway. I double checked and it does seem to have pressure and resistance at the lever. Guess I better start studying Slave Cylinder replacement. I welcome anyone with knowledge of this in my area to assist. It would be greatly appreciated.

 

I think most would agree that bleeding the clutch is the hardest part. But it's really not that bad to change the slave.

 

I only briefly looked for a thread on changing 2nd Gen clutch slave but didn't run onto one right away. I'm sure there's some good ones. There is however, one on the 1st Gen in the Read Only section.

 

You will also need the gasket for the middle cover cover which has to be removed in order to get the slave out. Item 14 http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/2009/ROYAL+STAR+VENTURE+-+XVZ13TFYR/CRANKCASE+COVER+1/parts.html

I suggest taking the slave apart after you get it out so that you can determine that it was in fact seized.

 

It's easier to work on that side of the bike if it's upright and to a more comfortable height. If you have a MC jack that would do it. It seems like everything is always closer to the floor.

 

Heather

[Formerfuzz]

The good news, if we can call it that, I was laid off 6 weeks ago from a company I was with for 16 years. Guess they figured it was my time to go along with several others. Reorganization they call it. Probably will force early retirement for me. So I have plenty of time to work on my bike and get back to riding.

 

Ill update my progress

[V7Goose]

From what I read here, the problem seems to be either a frozen slave cylinder (very rare if not a bazilion years old and sitting long time) or something stuck in the clutch pack/pressure plate. I have seen the exact thing happen if the pressure plate is not properly engaged with the clutch basket after replacing the clutch plates. But I cannot think of any way that could happen gradually after the clutch was already working properly unless something broke in the clutch.

 

I would start by making sure you have good resistance at the lever (if not, you need to get more air out). Once you are back to the point where the clutch lever stops moving without reaching the bar, then pull off the clutch cover and pressure plate. The rod that sticks out through the center of the clutch is what the slave cylinder pushes against the pressure plate and spring to move it out and release the clutch. With the pressure plate off, it is a simple matter to put your finger on the end of the rod and see if it is moving in and out with the clutch lever. If it is, then the problem is in the clutch pack or pressure plate. One caution, however - do NOT just keep squeezing the clutch lever with the pressure plate off! After each squeeze, you need to push the rod back in, just like the clutch spring would do normally. If you just keep squeezing without pushing the rod back in each time, you are liable to push the slave cylinder piston clean out of its bore (just like you could do with brake pistons if you tried to activate them without something in place to stop them from being pushed out.

 

If the rod does not move, then the problem is your slave cylinder or the rod itself.

 

Goose

Edited October 10, 2016 by V7Goose

[Formerfuzz]

Removed the upper and lower Hex Bolts and the Hydraulic Line, care to catch the brass washers. Moved the wire anchor and wires away. Riggled it until it dropped down and slid it out above the frame. Easier than I thought. Once out I checked the piston for movement and it was stuck. I popped it out and lubed it a bit and it moved in the housing but not freely. Probably the smart thing to do is replace it since its out.

 

Goose, If it doesn't work and the clutch still will not disengage, I'll follow your direction on checking it.

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by Formerfuzz

[Formerfuzz]

From what I read here, the problem seems to be either a frozen slave cylinder (very rare if not a bazilion years old and sitting long time) or something stuck in the clutch pack/pressure plate. I have seen the exact thing happen if the pressure plate is not properly engaged with the clutch basket after replacing the clutch plates. But I cannot think of any way that could happen gradually after the clutch was already working properly unless something broke in the clutch.

 

I would start by making sure you have good resistance at the lever (if not, you need to get more air out). Once you are back to the point where the clutch lever stops moving without reaching the bar, then pull off the clutch cover and pressure plate. The rod that sticks out through the center of the clutch is what the slave cylinder pushes against the pressure plate and spring to move it out and release the clutch. With the pressure plate off, it is a simple matter to put your finger on the end of the rod and see if it is moving in and out with the clutch lever. If it is, then the problem is in the clutch pack or pressure plate. One caution, however - do NOT just keep squeezing the clutch lever with the pressure plate off! After each squeeze, you need to push the rod back in, just like the clutch spring would do normally. If you just keep squeezing without pushing the rod back in each time, you are liable to push the slave cylinder piston clean out of its bore (just like you could do with brake pistons if you tried to activate them without something in place to stop them from being pushed out.

 

If the rod does not move, then the problem is your slave cylinder or the rod itself.

 

Goose

 

While waiting on the new Slave Cylinder, out of curiosity I tried to manually push the rod to see if I could move the clutch pressure plate. I'm guessing it is way too stiff for that, since it didn't budge.

[Du-Rron]

I don't see a ball bearing in the pics. There should be one ball bearing (one ball only) at the end of that pushrod. It is probably still in the hole. Don't lose it.

[Formerfuzz]

I don't see a ball bearing in the pics. There should be one ball bearing (one ball only) at the end of that pushrod. It is probably still in the hole. Don't lose it.

 

i slid the rod out from the Slave side so I'm hoping it is still in the hole on the clutch end. 😳

[V7Goose]

While waiting on the new Slave Cylinder, out of curiosity I tried to manually push the rod to see if I could move the clutch pressure plate. I'm guessing it is way too stiff for that, since it didn't budge.

Yes, it would take a LOT of pressure to push that rod to move the pressure plate - no way to do it by hand. I cannot really tell from your pictures, but something doesn't look quite right on the bottom left one - almost like the end of that rod is bent down? Be sure to carefully check the parts breakdown for all the specific parts and the order before you re-assemble.

Goose