PITA

[uncledj]

A couple of months back, I noticed the front bolt on the right exhaust manifold on my old (01) Dodge Truck was loose, sticking out of the manifold a half inch or so. Turns out it was actually broken. Then I started getting a tick from the left manifold. All bolts appear intact on that side.

Anyhoo, I figured I'd better replace both exhaust manifolds / bolts before it becomes a problem this Winter.

There wasn't much to grab to with a socket. 4 bolts and 2 studs per side, and everything was so rusted that a solid connection with a socket is difficult to impossible. (6 point)

I spent two nights after work getting the manifold to exhaust flange bolts out by cutting them with a dremel cut off wheel. They were hard to get to, but after literally going through 50 small cut off wheels, I was able to cut / chisel them off.

Then I moved to the left manifold that had the broken bolt. I gave the heads some pretty good raps, but couldn't get any penetrant to where the threads were, so I ended up busting the other front bolt, flush with the head.

One of the rear ones came out, and the other broke, but left an inch or so sticking out of the head, so I still have something to grab to. (THANK GOD). The rear bolts are hard to get to.

Lastly, I decided to burn the two studs off so that I wouldn't break them off at the head. (I always get nervous burning in an engine compartment.) Fire extinguisher....tank of CO2 with hose and a water hose handy, I went for it and it worked out ok.

More tapping and heavy prying and I got the manifold to come off in one piece.

Now to remove the broken bolts and studs.

I cleaned the protruding studs off as best I could, ...chipping any rust that I could remove. Then I started drilling pilot holes for an easy out in the bolts broken flush.

Mixed up a batch of 50 / 50 tranny fluid and acetone and soaked down the protruding bolts as well as the flush broken bolts.....gave them all a few taps to get the capillary action going.....cleaned up the tools....soaked them down and tapped them again....and again...and will do that again tomorrow morning.

Tomorrow after work I'll try to vice grip out the studs...or if necessary, weld a nut onto the studs to crank them out.....I'm worried about the flush broken bolts though. I think I got the pilot holes centered well enough that if I can't get them out with an easy out, I may be able to drill and re-tap the holes.

If and when I get through this...I get to start all over on the other side.

I've had this truck since 06, when I bought it from Texas and drove it home. It looked like it came off the showroom floor....but 10 years of sitting outside in this humid swamp that is Central Ohio has rusted all the bare metal parts to ruin. Body's still ok....been stayin' on that as best I could.

Anyhoo, I know folks here enjoy hearing of a mechanical challenge, so I thought I'd share.

I sure don't wanna have to pull the heads for this. That'd be an even bigger PITA.

Wish me luck.

[yamagrl]

PB Blaster is really good stuff. It never ceases to amaze me how effective it is.

[uncledj]

PB Blaster is really good stuff. It never ceases to amaze me how effective it is.[/QUOT

I saw the results of a study....I think I posted it on here a couple of years ago.

It showed the penetrating ability of PB Blaster, which I think did OK...WD40, which didn't do much at all..and a bunch of other common penetrants. It gave results on how effective they each were.

The absolute best results came from a 50 / 50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and acetone. It blew everything else away.

When I have a problematic situation, like I have now, ...it's my go to penetrant.

I remember a situation similar to what I have now a few years back, and, given a bit of time to work, ...the results were amazing.

[yamagrl]

PB Blaster is really good stuff. It never ceases to amaze me how effective it is.[/QUOT

I saw the results of a study....I think I posted it on here a couple of years ago.

It showed the penetrating ability of PB Blaster, which I think did OK...WD40, which didn't do much at all..and a bunch of other common penetrants. It gave results on how effective they each were.

The absolute best results came from a 50 / 50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and acetone. It blew everything else away.

When I have a problematic situation, like I have now, ...it's my go to penetrant.

I remember a situation similar to what I have now a few years back, and, given a bit of time to work, ...the results were amazing.

It would be interesting to read it if you can find it and post a link

[uncledj]

Seems like what I was looking at was a bit more involved than this, but I found this pretty quick.

 

For all of you that are mechanically inclined..... Penetrating Oils Compared A study done by Machinist's Workshop magazine in their April 2007 issue looked at different penetrating oils to see which one did the best job of removing a rusted bolt by measuring the pounds of torque required to loosen the bolt once treated. If the study was scientifically accurate, it turns out a home brew works best! Here's the summary of the test results:

 

Penetrating oil .......... Average load

 

None ..................... 516 pounds

 

WD-40 .................... 238 pounds

 

PB Blaster ............... 214 pounds

 

Liquid Wrench ............ 127 pounds

 

Kano Kroil ............... 106 pounds

 

ATF-Acetone mix.............53 pounds

 

The Automatic Transmission fluid (ATF)-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note the "home brew" was better than any commercial product in this one particular test. A local machinist group mixed up a batch and all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is about as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.

[bongobobny]

I used to use brake fluid as penetrating oil, and several days of blasting at it...

 

I seem to remember a trick with a torch on the busted off studs, heat them until they get molten hot and they literally explode out of the heads...

[eagleeye]

A simple search:

 

A Friend passed me this... I've not tried it...

 

“Machinist’s Workshop” recently published information on various penetrating oils. The magazine reports they tested these products for break out “torque” on rusted nuts and bolts. A subjective test was made of popular penetrating oils, with the unit of merit being the torque required to remove the nut from a “scientifically rusted” bolt. Average torque load to loosen nut:

 

No Oil used ……………………516 foot pounds

WD-40 ………………… ……..238 foot pounds

PB Blaster …………………….214 foot pounds

Liquid Wrench ………………….127 foot pounds

Kano Kroil …………………….106 foot pounds

ATF/Acetone mix…………………. 53 foot pounds

 

The ATF/Acetone mix is a “home brew” mix of 50/50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this “home brew” released bolts better than anycommercial product in this one particular test.

Our local machinist group mixed up a batch, and we all now use it with equally good results. Note also that Liquid Wrench is almost as good as Kroil for 20% of the price. ATF/Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a50/50 mix. ATF = Any type of Automatic Transmission Fluid.

 

This version of the story was in one of the Military Vehicle Club newsletters

 

[uncledj]

I saw where a guy suggests heating the bolt heads until they're red hot and try it, which is how I did remove the one rear bolt. The idea is that it expands the bolt (lengthens it) to where the stress is off the bolt. It makes sense, and is certainly worth a try, but when, as in this case, the threads are two inches in from the bolt head, and inaccessible to penetrant until the manifold is removed, there's not much you can do to loosen the threads themselves until the manifold is removed.

If I have trouble removing them tomorrow, I may put some heat on the head itself near the bolt(s).

[rbig1]

I have used heat bolt till they smoke then mist water on them brakes loose the bond. kind of like shock treatment.

[BlueSky]

I'm afraid of EZ outs. I've broken off more than one in the drilled out bolt hole and then was stuck. I think I would drill it with a larger and larger bit until I had drilled out most of it and then use penetrating oil and then the EZ out. By then the threads should be loose.

[camos]

I'm afraid of EZ outs.

Me too!!!

About 30 years ago I managed to break off a stud in the intake manifold of an older Jeep. Broke off an easy out, tried drilling it with a carbide bit,,,broke that, tried drilling with a diamond bit and broke that too. The solution that worked was to take the manifold to a larger machine shop and they used what they called a nibbler. Now the common term for a nibbler is a tool that is used to cut sheet metal so it is possible the term was used loosely.

 

Didn't see them do the job but the best I could tell their nibbler was more along the line of a adaptation of a welder that could take out small amounts of metal. Anyway, if you have run out of easy options perhaps have a chat with a local machine shop about your problem.

[djh3]

The larger the bit you drill out to, the better results in my experience. Because it has lees mass to make the threads grip. If you have some left handed bits they are kind of nice as sometimes they will back themselves out as your drilling. Good bits are a must. No horrible freight jobs

[ragtop69gs]

A bit more expensive an option is to find a weld shop with a laser, they can burn them out, leaving good threads to chase with a bottoming tap.

[eagleeye]

I'm afraid of EZ outs. I've broken off more than one in the drilled out bolt hole and then was stuck. I think I would drill it with a larger and larger bit until I had drilled out most of it and then use penetrating oil and then the EZ out. By then the threads should be loose.

 

I was thinking the same thing. a small hole with a small EZ out doesn't have much of a chance. I'd use the method BlueSky suggested.

[cowpuc]

Always had pretty good luck using my Oxy/Ace torch set up with a brazing tip (so I could aim the flame "cone" directly onto the broken bolt if snapped off at the surface) for heat control. Get her cherry, cool it like Rod mentioned and bingo.. Wonder if heating to cherry - let cool to the point of no red (so you dont get a fire) and cool the rest of the way with PB or the home brew would work.. Heating the bolt to red also has the effect of the metal loosing its hardness.. Have also broken off easy outs and found heating the broken easy out to cherry and letting cool can make drilling it out a LOT easier.. One of the things I like about using the "screw in" easy outs is that if it snaps off they will usually come out when drilling in to them with a normal right hand twist drill..

 

Gotta tell ya Unc -bottom line,, those rotten, broken, exhaust poppin manifold bolts ARE one of lifes true Pain in the backsides = could not agree more with ya brother!! Made the hair on the back of my neck stand up and caused my nuckles to start bleeding just looking at those pics!! With todays cramped up engine compartments and all the confounded EPA JUNK ya gotta remove just to get at the confounded things :bang head:,,, well lets just say ol Puc thinks YOU DA MAN for even attempting such a noble adventure..

[Flyinfool]

I have that job coming up soon here to. I have started to hear the tick of the leak. But I am gonna cheat.

I am gonna fix it without removing the exhaust manifold at all.

After doing a lot of reading on the issue, you go thru all of the work to replace the broken bolts and the new bold break too. it is a design isue that the stretching of the bolt with the heat cool cycles is stretching the bolt enough to cause metal fatigue and SNAP.

There is a company that makes a clamp bracket that bolts to the front and back of the head using existing holes, and then uses a clamp screw to hold down the outer corners of the manifold. The brackets are a bit pricey so I will probably make my own from scrap steel I have already. the brackets are considered the permanent fix for the broken manifold bolt issue.

 

Left hand drills very often spin the broken fastener out before the easy out ever comes out of the case. Especially if it was well lubed with with the magic 50/50 bullet and then use more of the 50/50 as your cutting oil.

[uncledj]

So far so good.

I soaked everything in the secret mix again this morning before work...gave everything a tap or two.

Came home and asked the wife if she wanted to go out to dinner, and she said "I know you're itching to work on the truck, so go ahead"..

God bless her heart.

One by one, I heated the head around the bolt for a minute or so, then gripped the protruding studs with vice grips and got them out.

One was a bi-otch....took over an hour...fought me to the last thread. The second one wasn't too bad....had it out in 20 minutes...then the most troublesome, hard to get at one actually came out pretty easy. THANK YOU GOD!!!.

Now for the two I have to easy out.

I determined from the ones I removed that the hole was about 1/4" deeper than the bolts, so I ended up drilling all the way through them with a small drill, then got some secret mix through the holes so that it's soaking from the front and back.....gave them a few taps...

I promised a buddy I'd help him with something tomorrow, but as soon as I get home, I'll drill them out to the proper size,....apply a bit of heat and go for it.

Wish me luck

[Dragonslayer]

Normally if I run into a problem like this first thing I do is remove the radiator cap......

 

Then I drive a different vehicle under the cap. Then reinstall cap by turning it to the right........

 

Problem solved.

[uncledj]

Normally if I run into a problem like this first thing I do is remove the radiator cap......

 

Then I drive a different vehicle under the cap. Then reinstall cap by turning it to the right........

 

Problem solved.

 

Where's the challenge in that?

 

It's been a good truck, although I don't drive it much. Bought it in 06 with 30k miles on it, ...haven't quite made it to 90k yet....I generally only use it when I actually need a truck.

Plus, it's been paid for for quite some time, so it's nice to not have that payment to make.

Besides the leaking manifold, I'm gonna replace the shocks and the front axle u-joints, and then I should be good for a few more years.