We have a WADDLE

[Marcarl]

Now this is interesting. Wizard765 and I both had new Avons put on the rear of our scoot this spring. Wayne also had a new front tire mounted. The bike shop did the mounting and balancing. While riding at normal cruising speed of 90 to 110 kph all is well. It's when we get to 120 to 140 kpm that we both experince the same interesting problem. The bikes start to waddle, now notice I said WADDLE not wobble. It's not the same as with loose steering head bearings, I've had that as well and fixed it. This seems to be coming more from the back than from the front. The bike reacts as though it's being buffeted from riding behind a truck, but real steady. The tire is mounted correctly in the proper direction and runs true on the center stand. Pressure is at 42 lbs. Last night I tightened the steering head a little, now no bounce, and it improved somewhat at 120 kph, but at 140 it was not pretty and at 160 it was downright scary, but it didn't develope at all, if I held the speed steady the waddle didn't get worse and disappeared slowly as I slowed down. Any ideas?

[GigaWhiskey]

You sure the waddle you are speaking of is not a warble, lol. Wonder if you have the other issue that is not steering related but frame related and the stickyness of the Avons bring it out.

 

My warble kinda felt like it came from the rear and not from the steering head. Added the six solid engine mounts to clean it up.

 

Or, you have some worn bushings in the rear that the Avons bring out.

 

Without feeling it for myself, that is my idea.

[Marcarl]

You sure the waddle you are speaking of is not a warble, lol. Wonder if you have the other issue that is not steering related but frame related and the stickyness of the Avons bring it out.

 

My warble kinda felt like it came from the rear and not from the steering head. Added the six solid engine mounts to clean it up.

 

Or, you have some worn bushings in the rear that the Avons bring out.

 

Without feeling it for myself, that is my idea.

Good thoughts. I took off an Avon and replaced it with a new one, swing arm was done last year and is now greased with every oil change. Engine mounts are super tight, but I do not have the solid mounts. Thing is, I didn't have this problem last fall, but now have do, what changed???? and not only on my scoot, Waynes as well?????

[Squidley]

Carl,

Perhaps you didn't torque the rear pig correctly when you reinstalled it. I know that they can get a bit out of alignment if you dont do it right. Here's what I do when reinstalling...

1 Install pig in tube and stick driveshaft, install the nuts on the studs and just snug them down.

2 Install rear rim and tire onto pig and assemble all the brake components and install rear axle.

3 Tighten the shaft bolt (12mm) so the axle bolt can be torqued, torque the nut and then release the 12mm shaft bolt, the swing arm will spring into it's proper formed shape.

4 Loosen the 4 pig nuts that are snug and then torque them down in a criss cross fashion. Everything should be where it normally sits.

This is how I have done ever single one of my Ventures and I have never had any problems. Some others may chime in and add or detract from what I have mentioned, but I have never had any problems doing it this way with over 80k worth of riding.

[Squeeze]

Waddle ?

 

Can i imagine this as a Sort of Vibration with longer Wavelength ?

 

My first Thought was, Wheel balancing failed. If you're not afraid, pry off the Balancing Weight and test the Ride. Or attach 5 Grams to the existing Weights and test it.

 

Maybe the Tires weren't stored safely and have a internal Flat Spot. I have had this with a front Tire which exposed a Wobble at 90 km/h. Came from the Dealer with 14 Months old. Finally, i got rid of the Tire.

[Guest Swifty]

I'm feeling your pain, buddy.

And I went nuts trying to chase my wa-ordble...played with steering bearing adjustment, big custom made fork brace, coupla solid engine mounts, tire pressures and new tires. None of that worked, and I was still going to attack the swing arm with some grease fittings as the next winter's project, but low and behold exactly the opposite of your situation...one Spring the warodbble was gone. Can't figure it, and chocked it up to holding my tongue differently when I ride. Good luck.

[Rocket]

Waddle ?

 

Can i imagine this as a Sort of Vibration with longer Wavelength ?

 

My first Thought was, Wheel balancing failed. If you're not afraid, pry off the Balancing Weight and test the Ride. Or attach 5 Grams to the existing Weights and test it.

 

Maybe the Tires weren't stored safely and have a internal Flat Spot. I have had this with a front Tire which exposed a Wobble at 90 km/h. Came from the Dealer with 14 Months old. Finally, i got rid of the Tire.

 

If it is the same, as what I had before, right after a new rear tire was installed. As the back end was swaying, about 3 feet side to side at higher speeds. The dealer put the stock tire pressure in (as I discovered later), increasing pressure didn't stop it. But the tire wearing in did, as in being flater in the center area of the tread.

[Venturous Randy]

Carl, I have stated several times that I love the way my Avons handle on my 1st gen, as long as I don't get over 80mph. And, 100mph is scary as he**. I have had several sets of Dunlops, Metzlers and now Avons. Nothing has been as good and bad as the Avons.

I am posting a thread I did a while back about my experience.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10048&highlight=100mph+wobble

 

Also, if you do a search, you will find that many of us have had a problem with the high speed wobble with the Avons on our 1st gens.

 

I may have to give mine anther try now that I have some miles on them and some worn flat spot on the rear, as Rocket suggested.

 

RandyA

[Marcarl]

Well, took a look at the tire this morning to see if was going in the right direction, yep it was, but then I noticed some wheel weights I hadn't noticed before, some stick on jobs, a full 8 of them all in a nice little row, stuck on the same side all together, along with this there were 2 clamp on weights a little further down, one on the one side of center and the other on the opposite side. I didn't like the looks of all that weight, specially all on the one side, so off came the tire and down to the dealers with some pepperettes(they work wonders) and I didn't buy the tire there. Anyways, they were super nice and on mech right away took the tire and put it on the balancer, weights and all. It was perfect. Then we removed all the weights, about 80 gr, unbeaded the tire, gave it a turn on the wheel and did a rebalance. Perfect balance with only 25 gr. I haven't had a chance to ride it just yet, but plan on that tomorrow, we let you know.

[Rocket]

Carl, I have stated several times that I love the way my Avons handle on my 1st gen, as long as I don't get over 80mph. And, 100mph is scary as he**. I have had several sets of Dunlops, Metzlers and now Avons. I may have to give mine anther try now that I have some miles on them and some worn flat spot on the rear, as Rocket suggested.

 

RandyA

 

I was talking with a friend tonight about this. He has a severe case of MBD (currently 8). He figures that the tire was not seated properly by the installer, as in not taking it up to max pressure to seat the bead, then reducing down to running pressure. This will be worth checking on newly installed tires.

[Squeeze]

I was talking with a friend tonight about this. He has a severe case of MBD (currently 8). He figures that the tire was not seated properly by the installer, as in not taking it up to max pressure to seat the bead, then reducing down to running pressure. This will be worth checking on newly installed tires.

 

Your Friend sure isn't wrong. If the Tire initially isn't seated well, this will cause Problems.

 

Carl, the first Dealer should have done this to your Tire when he found out that it needed this much of Weight. And placing all Weights on one Side is, well said, not so smart, to say it at least. This alone could cause a Problems.

[Guest HdHtr]

I put a set of Venoms on mine a couple of weeks ago. First time in 172K that I've had Avons on the bike. I put a couple of hundred miles on it to break them in, riding reasonably. Since then I've put about 500 miles on them and don't think I've had it above 90. So far I've had no problems. I am running max cold pressure (think it is 50lbs, that's on the sidewall) front and rear, max pressure in the rear shock and 0 in the front. Mfg date is October 07 for both and I had a local dealer R&R and balance them. They do handle differently than the Dunlops EII's I've always used on this bike but so far they feel stable cornering or straight line cruising on a variety of roads.

[Marcarl]

Your Friend sure isn't wrong. If the Tire initially isn't seated well, this will cause Problems.

 

Carl, the first Dealer should have done this to your Tire when he found out that it needed this much of Weight. And placing all Weights on one Side is, well said, not so smart, to say it at least. This alone could cause a Problems.

The seating looked good when I checked it. Checked for bead alingment as well run out, couldn't define any issues, but when I noticed the weights all on one side, I started to wonder. Well, it's back on and we'll find out around noon today hopefully.

[Marcarl]

I put a set of Venoms on mine a couple of weeks ago. First time in 172K that I've had Avons on the bike. I put a couple of hundred miles on it to break them in, riding reasonably. Since then I've put about 500 miles on them and don't think I've had it above 90. So far I've had no problems. I am running max cold pressure (think it is 50lbs, that's on the sidewall) front and rear, max pressure in the rear shock and 0 in the front. Mfg date is October 07 for both and I had a local dealer R&R and balance them. They do handle differently than the Dunlops EII's I've always used on this bike but so far they feel stable cornering or straight line cruising on a variety of roads.

I might be reading a little between the lines here, but just to keep things clear, I have no problems with Avon, used them for the last two years and had no issues at all, I loved them, and I don't think it's the tire this time.

[Guest HdHtr]

I might be reading a little between the lines here, but just to keep things clear, I have no problems with Avon, used them for the last two years and had no issues at all, I loved them, and I don't think it's the tire this time.

I think what I was wondering is tire pressure maybe? The dealer thought I was nuts to want the pressure at max cold as noted on the sidewall. They recommended 36 lbs (yamaha specs) and I've always run the cold max pressure noted on the sidewall on any tire I've used.

[Wizard765]

OK.. Last night I rode with the navigator for the first time since the new tires were put on. It either eliminated the problem or moved it up to a higher speed that I didn't get to. Without a passenger it starts very slightly around 110 Kms and gets very noticable around 120 Kms. At 140 it's downright interesting. With the passenger at 120 Kms it was gone. I don't have a clue what this means but thought I'd throw this in the pot for you guys to ponder a bit. I'm very much looking forward to Carls ride this afternoon and his results. If we don't get this solved we won't be able to make any long hwy rides such as Maintenance Day....

 

Wayne

[Gone14S]

I was supprised to see this thread come up.

I just put a set of Avons on my bike and am having the same problem.

The bike never did this before. It started after the tire change,front and rear.

I have a super brace and have been playing with tire pressure and shock settings.

I changed where I was riding in the lanes also.

 

I have gottin it a little better but it still there.

 

Kurt

[GigaWhiskey]

Without a passenger it starts very slightly around 110 Kms and gets very noticable around 120 Kms. At 140 it's downright interesting. With the passenger at 120 Kms it was gone.

 

Wayne

 

This was interesting to read. Could this be a difference in the tire construction on Avons versus other tires? Does this mean that the additional weight (100+ lbs) centered more towards the rear tire changes the geometry of the tire enough to handle better at speed? Are these tires rated for more or less weight than other tires to give this waddle effect?

 

We do not ride crotch rockets. Most of their weight is at the front wheel where we are not.

 

I have no idea and figured I would drop my thoughts for y'all to ponder.

[GeorgeS]

Just a few comments. Have you checked the 3 lower cross bolts, of the rear suspensioin, Maby remove and lubricate them.

 

You might check the Torque of the Swing Arm Bearings Nuts. Maby regreese the Bearings there.

 

Have you Ever checked the Torque Of ALL the Frame Bolts.

Maby a loose nut or bolt someplace. ???

 

I put on a set of Avons last summer, I had problem with the front, Stone Punctured it. I have replaced that with an Dunlop.

 

Frankly, I'm seriously considering Ordering a New Elite III for the Rear.

[Squeeze]

When three Guys stating such serious Facts, i smell there might be something.

 

 

Therefore, i would suggest NOT to tinker at the Bike or the Pressure or anything else.

 

Instead of this, maybe there's a fellow Member nearby(for canadian Relativity's) and willing to offer HIS Wheel for a test on Carl's, Wizard's or Gone14S's Bike ?

 

It's a hassle, yes, but when you start to tinker with the Bikes, there is no Way telling what has happened when a Change in Behaviour would occur.

 

On the other Hand, if you change the rear Wheel only, at best to another Brand than Avon, and feel no Difference to the Avon, you can take it as a Fact that the Tire isn't to blame.

 

If there is a Change in Behaviour, there is something wrong with Tire or Rim. As i would rule out the Rim in first Place. Now, there would be a Choice to make, change the Tire to another Avon or change to another Brand. But since the Avon would come off the Rim, there is the Time to double check the Rim for anything which can occur.

[Squeeze]

Just a few comments. Have you checked the 3 lower cross bolts, of the rear suspensioin, Maby remove and lubricate them.

 

You might check the Torque of the Swing Arm Bearings Nuts. Maby regreese the Bearings there.

 

Have you Ever checked the Torque Of ALL the Frame Bolts.

Maby a loose nut or bolt someplace. ???

 

I put on a set of Avons last summer, I had problem with the front, Stone Punctured it. I have replaced that with an Dunlop.

 

Frankly, I'm seriously considering Ordering a New Elite III for the Rear.

 

George, Carl has had his Motor out and overhauled, he did find some loose Bolts in the sensitive Areas while dismouting the Engine. Not sure about Wizards Bike.

[Wizard765]

George, Carl has had his Motor out and overhauled, he did find some loose Bolts in the sensitive Areas while dismouting the Engine. Not sure about Wizards Bike.

 

My bike had the swing arm out and new bushings all around. Greased and replaced as well as small holes drilled for future lubrication. Everything was put back together with the torques set to what the book says. The only common issue here is that we both got new Avons and had them installed and balanced at the same place. We took in the wheels.

Another note to add. This evening I took a few of my daughters freinds for rides. One of the girls wanted to go "faster" so I got it up to 140 kms for quite a spell and no sign of the wobble. Also hit 150 for a short time and again no problem. This is all on back roads because there is no hwy near me. So extra weight on the scoot makes a difference. Now I need to go and do another solo spin. In the morning I'm going to try it out again. Maybe the tires need to be "broken in" I've now got about 800 Kms on them.

 

Wayne

[GigaWhiskey]

After all that I have read, it is these tires and the 1st gen. They mist not be compatible in some way, shape or form. It must have something to with how they are placed on the road, weight, stickiness and how they are put together and all. it seems to be a waste of money on what would normally be a great tire.

 

 

Something i would not put on a venture but put on other applications.

[Marcarl]

I know, you are all worried that I passed out or something. Well today didn't pan out as planned and my afternnon spin came in the form of a delivery truck, bringing meat to our market, had too much for the scoot to carry. So it was this evening when my beloved and I decided to relive old times and take a little jaunt on the scoot to visit a restuarant that serves some of the finest. During the entire time on the road, never did I get so much as a hint of a waddle, but then we were fully loaded and held to a cool 90 kph \ 56 mph. Oh well, I'll wait til the morning and report back.

[Squidley]

After all that I have read, it is these tires and the 1st gen. They mist not be compatible in some way, shape or form. It must have something to with how they are placed on the road, weight, stickiness and how they are put together and all. it seems to be a waste of money on what would normally be a great tire.

 

 

Something i would not put on a venture but put on other applications.

 

GW,

I tend to disagree, I believe that this an isolated incident. There are MANY folks here that run Avons on 1st gens with zero issues like this. I have had 4 sets of Avons on 1st and 2nd gens with none of this problem occuring. Seeing as Wayne and Carl both had there tires balanced at the same place leads me to look heavily in that direction.

It was mentioned that Carl had the tire rebalanced and the weight came out minimal due to spinning the tire on the rim. A good tire man will do that if he sees that a tire is taking a lot of weight. I think this problem will come out in the wash as Carl has run Avons on this bike before.