How bad do I need choke to start ? Choke plungers are stuck and 2 studs broken

[Arxvz1200]

Hi,

I'm putting back on the street new to me Venture 1200 year 1984. In the carbs I noticed Only one choke plunger works, 1 moves but the stud (little bit) is broken, 2 others stuck (the other without stud).

 

I'm was wondering how bad do I need the choke for a test start ?

Can I drill a hole and insert little screw to replace the broken part ?

I was hoping to try starting it in coming week after I gotten the carbs back in place.

 

It ran last couple of years ago. All tips for starting a bike that's has sat and had engine off are welcome

 

 

So far

The transmission has been changed and the carbs were ultrasonic cleaned at a shop. Did a benchsync.

I adjusted the valves.new plugs

 

To do..

The linked rear brake doesn't work

The choke ?

 

 

Thanks,

Anssi

[bongobobny]

Well, the very first thing that comes to mind to do even before you crank it over is to remove all 4 spark plugs and pour a very small amount of Marvel Mystery Oil, maybe about a teaspoon or less, into each cylinder. If you have no Marvel Mystery in your country, Automatic Transmission Fluid will work as well. The reason for this is there is always a possibility that rust or corrosion may have developed inside the combustion chamber, and cranking it over dry with crud in it could damage a piston ring or two. You could try penetrating oil or even brake fluid, anything that will creep into the sides of the pistons and on to the rings. Let it soak for at least a day, then crank the engine over a few times before reinstalling the spark plugs.

 

I would also change the oil before starting, oil breaks down with age whether or not it has mileage on it or not.

 

As far as starting without the choke, well, it may or may not, and I'm thinking probably not, but you could try a shot of starting fluid in each carb, but keep in mind the bike will not run very well without the airbox on and the cover on as well. Chances are, from setting for a long time, your carbs are all gunked /corroded up inside and will need a complete rebuild, although you did say they got an ultrasonic cleaning and supposed bench sync, but by bench sync do you mean they were installed on a running engine and sync'ed dynamically?? Does this so called professional REALLY understand these complex carburettors and how to PROPERLY set them up??

 

With the rear brake system, well, chances are both the master and both left front and rear calipers should be disassembled, cleaned, and rebuilt. The entire hydraulic circuit needs to be flushed as you will probably find that the fluid may have crystallized and you have chunks of solid matter in the lines and calipers. For flushing and bleeding the system, start with the front at the anti dive valve and then to the rear. For best results use speed bleeders (8mm x 1.25) and a vacuum pump. Also, you should disassemble and clean out the proportioning valve that splits the hydraulic fluid from the master cylinder to both the rear and front brakes. There is a spring inside that valve, and the design of the valve is that the fluid goes to the rear caliper a split second before the fluid goes to the front brake as a safety feature so the front does not nose dive. There is also a metering valve in line with the hoses to the front brake that is in reality an orifice that could get clogged up. It is located on the frame near the steering neck on the underside of the frame at the top.

 

I guess I don't sound too encouraging, do I? Hope you have good luck getting it running again, once running proper they are wonderful bikes!!

[Arxvz1200]

Thanks for quick reply.

I gave little automatic oil when adjusting the valves. The engine turns over nicely by hand. Haven't cranked with starter motor. There's compression.

 

it's a good idea to crank without sparkplugs couple of times when I have the new oil in.

 

with Bench syncing the carbs I meant trying to set visually a starting point with carbs on the table and setting equal air flow gap from sync screws.

For more precise tuning I have vacuum gauge and colortune plug.

 

Visually the carbs seem ok. The slides move nicely and there weren't any cracks in the membrane.

But I haven't opened them (yet) and since the chokeplungers are stuck there might circuits that are not well. I don't know whether they took it apart in the shop.

 

I guess I try to have choke at least to 2 carbs. Then with fresh battery and starter fluid give it a try.

And also I need get a piece of hose that goes to airbox from below carbs between cylinders (maybe a breather hose?).

 

with brakes I deal later if needed.

 

U dont sound encouraging. we are on the same lines

 

Anssi

[snyper316]

Thanks for quick reply.

I gave little automatic oil when adjusting the valves. The engine turns over nicely by hand. Haven't cranked with starter motor. There's compression.

 

it's a good idea to crank without sparkplugs couple of times when I have the new oil in.

 

with Bench syncing the carbs I meant trying to set visually a starting point with carbs on the table and setting equal air flow gap from sync screws.

For more precise tuning I have vacuum gauge and colortune plug.

 

Visually the carbs seem ok. The slides move nicely and there weren't any cracks in the membrane.

But I haven't opened them (yet) and since the chokeplungers are stuck there might circuits that are not well. I don't know whether they took it apart in the shop.

 

I guess I try to have choke at least to 2 carbs. Then with fresh battery and starter fluid give it a try.

And also I need get a piece of hose that goes to airbox from below carbs between cylinders (maybe a breather hose?).

 

with brakes I deal later if needed.

 

 

U dont sound encouraging. we are on the same lines

 

Anssi

 

Just my !! Since my carbs were cleaned and rebuilt I have never had to use the choke. When you get it all done turn key off and on till you hear the or rather not hear the pump kick on and try it without the starting fluid and chokes. But if I were you I would track down some enrichers before putting the carbs back in. That is just my . By no means can I even consider myself an expert on these bikes just know from past year of experience with My goofy ol 83.

[mountainmanVR]

Starting these without choke (enrich) is dang near impossible (at least on mine if it has sat more than a few hours). Are you saying one of the screws holding on the choke plunger is broke?

[Arxvz1200]

I try attach a picture of broken and not-broken part

 

four enricheners

one ok

one stuck and broken

one moves but broken

one stuck but in one piece

 

and thanks again for all your comments.

 

It's one of those times when I'm thinking just quickly putting back together to get any idea of condition of motor

or taking the longer more thorough route doing it right all the way.

 

Usually first way takes me to the second way anyway. But I feel little motivation lacking with all the setbacks and really no idea if this effort will be worth the trouble.

 

I'll worki on it today and let you know the results.

 

A

[snyper316]

Just my !! Since my carbs were cleaned and rebuilt I have never had to use the choke. When you get it all done turn key off and on till you hear the or rather not hear the pump kick on and try it without the starting fluid and chokes. But if I were you I would track down some enrichers before putting the carbs back in. That is just my . By no means can I even consider myself an expert on these bikes just know from past year of experience with My goofy ol 83.

OK I'm correcting this as I have found out. I shouldn't be able to fire my bike so easily. You do need working chokes!!!! Like I said I'm no expert I'm learning myself, and I might add from the best group of people there is!!!

 

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[snyper316]

I try attach a picture of broken and not-broken part[ATTACH=CONFIG]107225[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]107226[/ATTACH]

 

four enricheners

one ok

one stuck and broken

one moves but broken

one stuck but in one piece

 

and thanks again for all your comments.

 

It's one of those times when I'm thinking just quickly putting back together to get any idea of condition of motor

or taking the longer more thorough route doing it right all the way.

 

Usually first way takes me to the second way anyway. But I feel little motivation lacking with all the setbacks and really no idea if this effort will be worth the trouble.

 

I'll worki on it today and let you know the results.

 

A

That definitely doesn't look good and it is best to do thorough job!!! I have definitely learned that the hard way!! These machines; I would think if the engine turns there is definitely hope of having a very good running bike!!

 

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[cowpuc]

:scared: FINLAND? As in the country of Finland? HOW COOL IS THAT!! Gonna try and help you Arx but its going to cost you a LOT - as soon as I am done here I am gonna send you a "friend request" which you will have to accept :big-grin-emoticon:.. A man can never have enough friends!!

 

Yes, you can start these scoots with no `choke fairly easily. One way is plugging off the carb throats with your hand and a clean rag. Also, I have used a squirt bottle of gas to prime engines up many many times - just shoot a couple tablespoons of raw gas into the throat of each carb, open the throttle so the butterflies allow the fuel thru and crank er up. Be careful you dont get over a couple tablespoons of fuel into it - you dont wanna hydro lock it. Personally I do not care for starting fluid - ruined a little 2 stroke many many years ago firing it up on starting fluid and have used raw gas in a squirt bottle ever since (I use 2 stroke mix on everything). Have used LOTS of starting fluid on diesel motors but dont use it much on gas engines - just a personal thing..

If the motor has not been run in a long time I would personally make sure she is prelubed internally before I fired it up. Back when I was doing a lot of restoration on SOHC Honda's I would always take the valve caps off, pull the plugs, toss a drill motor on the crank, shoot couple teaspoons of mystery oil into the plug holes. Spin the motor up with the drill motor while squirting motor oil into the valve cap holes while spinning the motor.. Wasnt unusual to go thru a quart or two of oil before I was totally satisfied the top end was well lubed.. A friend stopped by one time, said he picked up one that hadnt been run in a while - wondered where to begin. Told him to prelube it before he tried to fire it up - took the risk and didnt do it - ended up snapping the camshaft cause it siezed from lack of lube.. It dont take much to gaul the cam journals.

Our V-4's are like most Jap scoots in the top end, they are NOT ball or needle bearings on the cams, they ARE ground cast steel cams laying in aluminum line bored journals that totally rely on a thin layer of oil to maintain their integrity. Start em dry and their gone.. Knowing the valve covers are kind of a pain to remove to prelube and not knowing how long its been since you did the valves - I would strongly suggest that you mystery oil the jugs as mentioned, change in some clean 10/40 and at least spin it on the crank for a couple minutes to allow the oil pump to get things moving.. Should be able to pull the little cover on the right engine cover to do this - I would use the starter with the plugs out and kill switch on if nothing else - 8 or 10 five second burst should do it so you dont damage the starter = better than nothing.. The key for me in all this was figuring out a way to find out what I had without having to invest a ton of money into carb repair kits and stuff before I knew whether or not the bike was worth putting money into it - always figuring out a way of finding out without ruining parts in the process - TALK ABOUT FUN!!!

Bongo mentioned the Metering Valve on the neck of your scoot in talking about your braking problem. That valve is important in getting the rear brake to function properly. One of the main problems associated with the valve that I have experienced thru the years is that its the high spot in the linked rear brake system. In the beginning (1983) Yamaha chose not to put a bleeder on that valve - because of that we 1st Gen riders have had to bleed that Valve from the line to get air out of it - this is a MUST do!! If you kneel down on the right side of the bike in front of the radiator and look above the radiator you will see the metering valve on the neck (it will be right above the radiator cap). The brake line you want to loosen will be on the left side of the metering valve. You will probably need a box end wrench with a cut out for sliding over the line - think its 10mm if memory serves me correctly. Just put a rag under the valve - after breaking the line loose, reach back with your foot and slowly press down on the rear brake peddle and while watching the little bubbles appear - tighten the line and release he pedal - do until no more bubbles.. I am not sure what year Yamaha finally put a bleeder on the valve - I just noticed yours is an 84? It may have the bleeder - if so you will find by looking at thru the opening beside the emergency 4 way flasher switch. If you see a bleeder in there on the right hand side of the steering neck consider yourself fortunate

 

All for now - hope this helps!!

Your FRIEND

Puc

Edited September 5, 2016 by cowpuc

[bongobobny]

As far as it being worth it, yes I think it is, these bikes are WONDERFUL touring bikes with the heart of a Sport bike! Sure sometimes it is a lot of work and money getting them in ship shape but well worth it!

[Arxvz1200]

I managed to repair one, so now I have 2 enricheners working.

Thanks for all comments this gives me boost to carry on.

 

Yes I am writing from the country of FINLAND. It's hard to get parts and season is short. But somebody has to take care of these 80's beauties up here.

I've had many japanese aircooled inline fours. This venture is my first "modern" bike with tci-box and watercooling

 

It seems that prelubing is next. Hopefully today I'll give it spin.

 

Be back with news later today I hope

 

Ar

[Arxvz1200]

Starter motor was no show.

 

Put the carbs and back, filled oil and coolant. hooked extra battery. Turned power on. Heard the clicks from fuel pump, watch the lights cycle in the dash. Pressed start. Solenoid clicked but no starter motor.

 

After doing some tests and different measurements came to following conclusion. Short in the starter motor or gears not working behind left cover.

 

I even tried to give power straight to the terminal of startermotor, just a spark not even a little turn.

 

I doubt it's my battery but to be safe I recharge it tonite and try again tomorrow.

 

Engine turned over nicely by hand.

 

Also when filled coolant and little drops came from plastic pipe that comes from waterpump

 

So disappointing day. I guess I don't have to worry about the brakes or enrichener yet.

And the most frustrating thing is that it's my own doings. I thought I serviced the startermotor good but either shorted it or messed up gears as I has the cover off for polishing.

 

Any suggestions should first remove startermotor or left side starter gear cover ?

 

Thanks

A

[snyper316]

Starter motor was no show.

 

Put the carbs and back, filled oil and coolant. hooked extra battery. Turned power on. Heard the clicks from fuel pump, watch the lights cycle in the dash. Pressed start. Solenoid clicked but no starter motor.

 

After doing some tests and different measurements came to following conclusion. Short in the starter motor or gears not working behind left cover.

 

I even tried to give power straight to the terminal of startermotor, just a spark not even a little turn.

 

I doubt it's my battery but to be safe I recharge it tonite and try again tomorrow.

 

Engine turned over nicely by hand.

 

Also when filled coolant and little drops came from plastic pipe that comes from waterpump

 

So disappointing day. I guess I don't have to worry about the brakes or enrichener yet.

And the most frustrating thing is that it's my own doings. I thought I serviced the startermotor good but either shorted it or messed up gears as I has the cover off for polishing.

 

Any suggestions should first remove startermotor or left side starter gear cover ?

 

Thanks

A

 

Those starters can be rebuilt for the most part your brushes may be worn. I don't know for sure and don't know where you would find the brushes. I had to get mine rebuilt cause I didn't want to mess it up and end up buying a new one. But I think we have 2 brush starters I Can't remember when they updated to 4 brush motors.

[yamagrl]

Spray PB Blaster in the stuck ones. That'll probly work. Avoid using sand paper or emory cloth to clean the pistons once you get them out. The clearance is so close that just lightly buffing the piston will make the surface rough enough to interfere with the enrichener piston sliding in the cylinder.

 

I know because I buffed one on Big Red with 320 and it wouldn't hardly move after that. I don't recall if I had to get up to 1500 or maybe 2000 grit. But then again, that might be your solution.

[bongobobny]

OK if it were me I would pull the starter motor, set it on the bench, and apply 12 volts to it to see if it will spin. If it does not spin on the bench it either needs rebuilding (lot of work and money) or replacing. I would replace it with a 4 brush starter from a 2nd generation Venture which is a direct bolt in, and eliminate some of the hard starting when hot issues associated with 1st gen Ventures!! Not sure what they would go for in your country but in the US they run around $60 - $75 USD for a good used one...

[snyper316]

Wow I got told 250 for used one...

 

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[bongobobny]

Nope!! EBay is our friend...

 

Here's some examples...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-Yamaha-XVZ-1300-XVZ1300-Royal-Star-Venture-starter-motor-/401098958514?hash=item5d635c66b2:g:FRIAAOSwQgpW~n33&vxp=mtr

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EB193-2012-YAMAHA-XVZ-1300-ROYAL-STAR-VENTURE-STARTER-MOTOR-/291815551712?hash=item43f18ff2e0:g:RoYAAOSwB9xXOhBQ&vxp=mtr

 

Now, for a good quality rebuilt by Rick's...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-VMX12-VMAX-1985-2006-Ricks-Electric-Oe-Style-Starter-Motor-By-Ricks-/321981112537?hash=item4af791e0d9:g:aiMAAOSwpRRWnezL&vxp=mtr

 

It states for older ventures but it may still be a 4 brush as it also calls out for VMax which is a 4 brush and is also plug and play...

Edited September 6, 2016 by bongobobny

[snyper316]

Nope!! EBay is our friend...

 

Here's some examples...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-Yamaha-XVZ-1300-XVZ1300-Royal-Star-Venture-starter-motor-/401098958514?hash=item5d635c66b2:g:FRIAAOSwQgpW~n33&vxp=mtr

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EB193-2012-YAMAHA-XVZ-1300-ROYAL-STAR-VENTURE-STARTER-MOTOR-/291815551712?hash=item43f18ff2e0:g:RoYAAOSwB9xXOhBQ&vxp=mtr

 

Now, for a good quality rebuilt by Rick's...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-VMX12-VMAX-1985-2006-Ricks-Electric-Oe-Style-Starter-Motor-By-Ricks-/321981112537?hash=item4af791e0d9:g:aiMAAOSwpRRWnezL&vxp=mtr

 

It states for older ventures but it may still be a 4 brush as it also calls out for VMax which is a 4 brush and is also plug and play...

 

When I went to partzilla and was looking at the starter there it looked to only show 2 brushes under Yamaha xvz13adl.. is kinda why I asked because I would definately be looking to updating things on Marie. So should I just do search on Vmax to be sure..

[snyper316]

This can't Be right http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-STARTER-YAMAHA-MOTORCYCLE-V-MAX-VMAX-VMX1200-1200-1999-2000-2001-2002-2003-/331334328631?fits=Year%3A1999%7CModel%3AVmax+1200&hash=item4d2510a137:g:egsAAOSwfcVUKvZo&vxp=mtr

[frankd]

I think it depends on how rich or lean you have your idle mixture screws set and how warm it is that determines if you need your choke (enrichner) to start. My 83 will start fine if it's above 80F without the choke. Below that no go. My 89 needed the choke unless it was 90 degrees F. outside when I had the idle mixture screws set on the lean side. It also had a lean bog in it if I turned the choke off before I moved the bike. The last time I adjusted the carbs, I set them a bit richer and now it starts great and responds properly to throttle input.

 

The moral of the story, if you're having trouble getting your bike to fire and you can't turn on the chokes, it will help if you turn all 4 idle mixture screws counter clockwise about a turn or so.

[snyper316]

I had to use the choke this morning but it fired with out. I had to pull it to get up to 1000 rpm and shut it down after a minute.

 

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[Flyinfool]

On the starter.

You mentioned that you had the side cover off for polishing.

Did you use a new gasket when you put it back on or did you use a sealer?

You need the gasket thickness in there or the cover will bind the starter gears.

 

On my 88 it does not mater what the air temp is, if the engine is cold it needs some choke to start.

[snyper316]

Hey this choke is a new one on me. It is 86 here. I don't know if it has anything to do with the (new mufflers) or not but also have Volkswagen whistle in right muffler.

 

Twist the handle and move!!!

[Arxvz1200]

Little update..

I pulled the radiator, The downpipe, and the starter.

Starter on the table applied 12 volts it span, great !

 

Took both left side covers off, took the starter motor gears off. Put the starter back with no gears and no covers hit the start button and starter motor worked.

 

I put the gears back but no cover hit the starter button. Cranked real nice ! No problem what so ever! Engine turned nicely!

 

Put the covers back on and pressed the start button. Didn't spin!

 

So when I loosened the stator cover screws it worked.

 

There was no gasket with cover to begin with and I applied some gasket sealant when putting back together.

 

Like it was already pointed out the missing gasket seems bind the gears.

 

How thick is the oem gasket ? Can I cut one out general gasket material ?

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Anssi

Edited September 9, 2016 by Arxvz1200

[Arxvz1200]

This is great forum. Of course there was already a thread on binding gears with no gasket

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?69767-Starter-Issues&highlight=stator+cover+thickness

 

This is great forum.

 

Anssi