A couple noob questions RE used bike values and Royal vs Venture

[snyper316]

Ok, I just got home with a sexy blue 89 Venture Royal. I rode it home from Mitchell. It has 69k, valve adjust and major service done 4k ago. One owner since new, this shop sold it to him new and the guy I bought it from is the guy that put it together when it was new. It was a consignment. He wanted 2800, I said "oh no, no matter what it's worth 2000 is at the top of my range, besides it's a 30 year old bike." He said 2100 and I said 2050 out the door so I have gas money. So I paid 2050, brakes and clutch just flushed, coolant flushed, oil and final drive just changed all 4k ago. Tires two years old. EVERYTHING works, it includes all the factory headsets and doodads, even come with a bike cover and OEM tools/owners manual. This is the condition I was hoping the one in Sioux City was. On the way home I did notice a couple things that will need attention. Finding it was a total accident, had no idea it was there, just spotted it while stopping for lunch on the way home. Not sure how much of a perk it is but it has a trailer hitch to.

 

1. Forks need rebuilt, they are weeping so before I even ride it again it's getting OEM seals, dust covers and progressive springs, probably a better brace.

 

2. At highway speeds its twitchy and nervous, not very smooth or stable, if I look down through the fairing hole at the fork tubes I can see them vibrating back and forth ever so slightly, that with the really vague parking lot/low speed feel tells me the head bearings are probably quite loose, so clean, grease and adjust.

 

3. I hear a tictictictictic somewhere in the front behind the fairing, consistent with road speed rather than engine speed and starts up at around 35mph, no idea what it is, speedo is steady and accurate.

 

4. MPG was around 25mpg at 80-ish, it seems pretty low, but running well and has decent power. I learned quite a bit about the CV carbs with the Vmax so I'll try synch and inspect diaphragms and see how that looks.

 

5. at highway speeds it has a sort of a howl. It disappears if the bike is perfectly upright, but reappears in a corner, or even if I lean to compensate for a crosswind. It sounded like it was coming from up front but I think it might be from the rear wheel area, maybe wheel bearings? Final drive?

 

I did some searching and will do some more, try to find the best sources for parts and ideas on what these things might be. Overall its fantastic on the road, not sure why I didnt pick one of these up decades ago, it's a brilliant machine.

 

All sounds very simple How far of a ride was that from Mitchell to home.. You Forgot Pictures tho.... But from the sounds of it wow I dont think i would have hit him that low to be honest i generally try to stay around 500 lower then the asking price cause i dont want to offend them and piss them off so you got some good skills there i would say.. but congratulations these are some fine Machines..

[Freebird]

The howl from the rear could be several things as you said but the first thing I would suspect would be the tire. Very common for worn/cupped tire to howl when leaning at all. Heck, even some brand new tires will do that depending upon the tread design. Sounds like you found a good one. Congrats.

[gggGary]

Woo Hoo!

[bongobobny]

Let the tweeking begin!!

 

Sounds like ya done good my friend! The very first thing I would do is REPLACE the upper and lower neck bearings and make sure the retaining nut is at the right torque. Seeing as you will most likely be rebuilding the front forks anyway for the leaking seal, go the extra mile and put in new progressive springs, you will be glad you did!! Unless your front tire was not balanced or it is cupped or fubar, betcha your front end will then feel solid as a rock. Of course you could also have an issue with the wheel bearings, there is always something with a 25 to 30 year old bike...

[CaseyJ955]

All sounds very simple How far of a ride was that from Mitchell to home.. You Forgot Pictures tho.... But from the sounds of it wow I dont think i would have hit him that low to be honest i generally try to stay around 500 lower then the asking price cause i dont want to offend them and piss them off so you got some good skills there i would say.. but congratulations these are some fine Machines..

 

I told him I knew it was probably worth a couple bones more than I was was offering, I let him know the story about going to Sioux City to buy one for a price and that was about all I had, so if he thought the owner would like to sell it today I would take it home. I guess the owner was ready to let it go. I think it's one of these bikes that just need the right buyer. He also let me know that it's a buyers market for used bikes right now and that the market is pretty soft.

 

I didnt know the rear tire could do the howl thing, I had him check the pressures before I left as my gauge was buried in the trunk. I would love not to replace bearings so I'll get it on the center and see if I can find any evidence of bearing failure. This howling would totally disappear when bikeperfectly upright but even the slightest lean would bring the howl back. It's probably time to search the threads for recommended tires.

 

I found the progressives on ebay, progressive # 11-1112 from oemcycles. I sent a message about Yamaha OEM seals and dust covers to, I'll send another about the neck bearings unless there are any forum members or known trusted sources I should hit first.

 

The ride home was about 4 hours, not quite 300 miles but I hit some life-changing crosswinds and blinding rain blowing sideways around Kadoka. I noticed all the Sturgis Rally traffic hiding in gas stations and under rest stop area picnic areas. It was quite bad for about 20 miles. Really surprised how well the Venture did.

 

I'll get some pics up later on, going to take the Vmax out for a ride and meet my daughter for sushi after I roll my account membership to full, pics later.

 

Thanks again to all who responded and assisted me, I look forward to seeing you guys at a campout rally soon!!

 

Tony

[syscrusher]

Don't neglect to change the upper and lower fork bushings too. You'll be sorry if you don't......

 

Learn from my mistake(s):

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?81910-My-fork-seal-seems-unrepairable-Help!

[CaseyJ955]

Don't neglect to change the upper and lower fork bushings too. You'll be sorry if you don't......

 

Learn from my mistake(s):

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?81910-My-fork-seal-seems-unrepairable-Help!

 

I'm looking through your post here. More work! aawww haha. I just ordered the Progressives and sent a message to an ebay vendor about the bearings and there is some confusion on part number. Does anyone have off the top of their head the part number for the Balls head bearing kit?

 

Also if there are any trusted sources for OEM seals, covers and bushings I'm all ears, it sure would be nice if there were a kit with all this in it. > $50 for seals and dust covers seems lofty to me, or would that be in line with whats expected. I'm cheap but I'm not about to use a non OEM fork seal.

 

I got through my Vmax forks just fine with no special tools, will I need anything special to replace the bushings or anything in these forks? The bushings just slide in/out, yes?

 

This is what I found on Ebay, they look OEM and the price seems reasonable, are these the same for the 89 1300?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Yamaha-Slide-Metal-Fork-Bushing-XVZ12-V-MAX-1200-Venture-Royale-1983-1984-/351646490833?hash=item51dfc3a0d1:g:xHMAAOSwFqJWs9aC&vxp=mtr

Edited August 14, 2016 by CaseyJ955

[snyper316]

I could suggest you look up stuff at Yamahapartshouse.com and you can cross reference part numbers there I have had to do that quite a bit for parts on my 83

 

Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk

[syscrusher]

Boats.net prices out favorably for Yamaha OEM, Partzilla is another portal to same ownership with not as good pricing somehow.

I'd skip Ebay and just go with them. The Ebay link goes to Gen 1.1 fork parts but you have a Gen1.2 and there are differences. I'm not an expert on what those differences all are specifically but in your situation I'd steer clear of fork parts made for Gen 1.1 until you have the time to compare part numbers between fiches. Boats.net has the ability to search where any particular part number is used, lists all models and years, so that's a good place to poke around for info too.

 

I have seen some posts here that talked about aftermarket fork seals that really sucked too so that's another reason to not mess around. You're replacing steering head bearings so I assume you have some movement there, like you can shake the front end when it's off the ground? You'lll have everything apart if you do that so this won't help you but you can replace seals and bushings, etc without taking the forks out of the trees if that makes any sense to you. Lot's of good info in the "Tech Library". If you do seals with forks in place slip a nitrile glove over the sharp edges where the bushings live and then slip the seal over that. The glove will protect the seal from damage. You're smart to be replacing dust seals too. I think it helps keep the fork slider in alignment so it doesn't allow the oil seal to leak.

[CaseyJ955]

I bookmarked yamahapartshouse, looks like a valuable site on many levels. I'll try boats.net now, I went to a stealership today and got some part numbers and prices for my gen 1.2 dust covers, seals and All Balls head bearing kit but only upper bushings, they say they dont see any lowers on these forks. Prices are only marginally cheaper for this stuff on Ebay. I try and support local business if their prices arent out of line but I cant ignore a big savings.

 

Have any of you guys used synthetic foreign car power steering/transmission fluid in the forks? It's a thing a lot of Vmax guys are doing and it's working quite well on mine.

 

EDIT:

Boats.net shows only list one metal slide per side. Is this her? It's about half price of the dealer for this item and cheaper enough on the rest I'll just order it from them once I know if this is the bushing in question or not.

http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/yamaha/Y-3JJ-23125-00-00.html

 

Thanks.

 

[h=2]METAL, SLIDE 1[/h]3JJ-23125-00-00

Edited August 15, 2016 by CaseyJ955

[bongobobny]

Hmmm, I generally use Bell 10W but I suppose tranny fluid would work, depends on how stiff/soft you want your suspension. For MY tastes 10W with Progressive springs works out OK but others who like a stiffer front end will use 15W or even 20W. Waaaay too stiff for me...

[CaseyJ955]

Hmmm, I generally use Bell 10W but I suppose tranny fluid would work, depends on how stiff/soft you want your suspension. For MY tastes 10W with Progressive springs works out OK but others who like a stiffer front end will use 15W or even 20W. Waaaay too stiff for me...

 

I really need to soften it up, my driveway has parts that are badly washboarded, aside from some of the off the beaten path places I end up when I tour, I better set her up for poor road conditions to minimize vibration and trauma to the bike over crappy surfaces. Maybe better to use a 10w, I really dont know how the Synth PS fluid compares wt wise. I'll ask Morley and put the info here in case any readers are interested. The advantage I have heard is that the fork seals and fluid both last quite a long time.

[syscrusher]

I bookmarked yamahapartshouse, looks like a valuable site on many levels. I'll try boats.net now, I went to a stealership today and got some part numbers and prices for my gen 1.2 dust covers, seals and All Balls head bearing kit but only upper bushings, they say they dont see any lowers on these forks. Prices are only marginally cheaper for this stuff on Ebay. I try and support local business if their prices arent out of line but I cant ignore a big savings.

 

Have any of you guys used synthetic foreign car power steering/transmission fluid in the forks? It's a thing a lot of Vmax guys are doing and it's working quite well on mine.

 

EDIT:

Boats.net shows only list one metal slide per side. Is this her? It's about half price of the dealer for this item and cheaper enough on the rest I'll just order it from them once I know if this is the bushing in question or not.

http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/yamaha/Y-3JJ-23125-00-00.html

 

Thanks.

 

METAL, SLIDE 1

 

3JJ-23125-00-00

 

The link I provided in that earlier post gives the two bushing names.

They are:

 

Upper Bushing = Metal, Slide 1

Lower Bushing = Piston, front fork

 

I am currently using ATF in my fork, partly because I wanted to be sure the seals were alright before spending $20 on fork oils.

I'm just using some cheap Quaker State stuff or something.

 

Which foreign car ATF is supposed to work well? What weight fork oil is it similar to?

 

You'll find a lot of people around here talk as though the Progressive springs are all you need, nothing else matters. Myself I'm a little disappointed with just the ATF but it's just ATF, Progressives, and CLASS so it's got several variables. I also have my anti-dives blocked, but then I hedged and drilled a small channel to give the effect slightly bypassed anti-dives instead. Sometime I want to make larger bypass channels because with heavier fork oil my much smaller channels won't do anything.

 

You'll ask so here's the skinny on Gen 1.2 anti-dives. In normal riding the anti-dive is an open channel. Under hard braking the solenoid closes this channel, restricting oil movement and making the fork stiffer. The solenoid(s) use significant power and are relatively fragile things sitting on the bottom of your fork. Break one and the fork oil will quickly be all over your engine, or maybe on the pavement under your tire. There are two approaches to eliminating them; blocking the holes off and an adjustable bypass. The bypass acts like a typical ordinary fork, blocking gives you a fork that is permanently in anti-dive mode. I do believe these approaches and their effects are reversed for Gen 1.1 forks.

[Flyinfool]

I have designed a set of adjustable bypass block off plates for the MKII. I have not gotten around to making them yet. That is in the plans for this winter.

The adjuster will let me set it anywhere from full open to full closed.

[CaseyJ955]

The link I provided in that earlier post gives the two bushing names.

They are:

 

Upper Bushing = Metal, Slide 1

Lower Bushing = Piston, front fork

 

I am currently using ATF in my fork, partly because I wanted to be sure the seals were alright before spending $20 on fork oils.

I'm just using some cheap Quaker State stuff or something.

 

Which foreign car ATF is supposed to work well? What weight fork oil is it similar to?

 

You'll find a lot of people around here talk as though the Progressive springs are all you need, nothing else matters. Myself I'm a little disappointed with just the ATF but it's just ATF, Progressives, and CLASS so it's got several variables. I also have my anti-dives blocked, but then I hedged and drilled a small channel to give the effect slightly bypassed anti-dives instead. Sometime I want to make larger bypass channels because with heavier fork oil my much smaller channels won't do anything.

 

You'll ask so here's the skinny on Gen 1.2 anti-dives. In normal riding the anti-dive is an open channel. Under hard braking the solenoid closes this channel, restricting oil movement and making the fork stiffer. The solenoid(s) use significant power and are relatively fragile things sitting on the bottom of your fork. Break one and the fork oil will quickly be all over your engine, or maybe on the pavement under your tire. There are two approaches to eliminating them; blocking the holes off and an adjustable bypass. The bypass acts like a typical ordinary fork, blocking gives you a fork that is permanently in anti-dive mode. I do believe these approaches and their effects are reversed for Gen 1.1 forks.

 

Thats exactly what I needed to know to get the parts ordered, didnt realize it was a piston for the lower. Just placed the order, seals, covers, slides and pistons all shipped for under $160, not to shabby for OEM stuff.

 

I plan to leave the anti-dive solenoids alone for now, they seem to function as they should.

 

On the ATF as fork oil, I got the idea on the Vmax board from Sean Morley (Highly respected tech and vendor). He said any FULLY synthetic ATF or PS fluid specifically for import cars. He was very clear about specifying the import part. I ended up using this.

http://www.valvoline.com/our-products/automatic-transmission-products/import-multi-vehicle-automatic-transmission-fluid

 

I couldnt find any wt info on this but from searching around synth ATF seems to be around 7.5 -10w. I did that at the same time I did Progressives and the difference was night and day on the Vmax. As it was explained to me the beneffit of using this instead of traditional fork oil is that it's much easier on the seals and the fluid lasts considerably longer. I'll see if I cant find out specifically what wt this oil is, I would prefer to err on the side of soft than too firm.

 

I'll update if I can find the specific wt info for this oil, I will make some effort to use the lightest suitable oil to keep it less jarring on bad roads.

[syscrusher]

It's not really a piston, but I guess it serves that function. It's really poorly named though. What you'll get will be not much different from the "Metal, Slide 1" other than a small size difference and it's location on the assembly.

 

Thanks for the update. Somewhere I had seen a list of what someone thought different weights were for ATF but I can't remember or easily find it. I do remember it was considered not necessarily totally accurate anyway. I just went for it and hoped to get lucky and I did to some degree. Basically it's good enough that it's not a high priority for me to change it till it's due or something happens. After my experiences I'm really just happy to not be seeping fork oil. Being able to add air with the CLASS system and keep it in is better than I thought I could hope for.

 

I guess I should take some time to delve into the properties of the oils that I use in general to determine if I'm really making good choices or not but to do a good job of that will require more time than I feel I have available right now. It's nice at least that Valvoline provides a link on the page you provided that takes you to a summary of the properties.

[camos]

On the ATF as fork oil, I got the idea on the Vmax board from Sean Morley (Highly respected tech and vendor). He said any FULLY synthetic ATF or PS fluid specifically for import cars. He was very clear about specifying the import part. I ended up using this.

http://www.valvoline.com/our-products/automatic-transmission-products/import-multi-vehicle-automatic-transmission-fluid

 

I couldnt find any wt info on this but from searching around synth ATF seems to be around 7.5 -10w. I did that at the same time I did Progressives and the difference was night and day on the Vmax. As it was explained to me the beneffit of using this instead of traditional fork oil is that it's much easier on the seals and the fluid lasts considerably longer. I'll see if I cant find out specifically what wt this oil is, I would prefer to err on the side of soft than too firm.

 

I'll update if I can find the specific wt info for this oil, I will make some effort to use the lightest suitable oil to keep it less jarring on bad roads.

ATF was MC factory approved for use in forks during the 60's and 70's, possibly into the 80's. Probably until some bright marketing entrepreneur "invented" fork oil that could be priced to squeeze twice the profit from the motorcycle cult.

 

As there is no weight standard for ATF it appears that different brands have different weights, at least that is the best info I could find. Also, fork oil has no weight standard across brands which results in a variation between one brand's 10 W and another brand's 10 W.

 

I recently replaced the fork oil in my 89 with common AW32 hydraulic oil. Hydraulic oil does have a weight standard across brands. It feels to be the same as whatever brand of fork oil was in the forks when I purchased it a few years ago. As far as I have seen, the heaviest weight fork oil is 20. I put 20 W in my Virago to try to reduce the dive which it did but was a bit too firm. When I did the forks on my 90 I put in 15 W fork oil. Unfortunately the 90 is not operational so I cannot compare the two.

 

Fork oil is hydraulic oil, as is ATF the difference being a possible variation in additives. What is important is the components of the oil do not attack the seals, does not foam and the viscosity is consistent. It would be good to find a brand of ATF that people are happy with.

[CaseyJ955]

I asked Morley about the synthetic import PS or ATF fluid wt, he confirmed that it ranges between 7-10wt and that MSDS info can shed more light on it. Just thought I would throw that in in case anyone else is thinking about using it. It's right where I want to be so I'm using it when I install the progressives.

[camos]

I asked Morley about the synthetic import PS or ATF fluid wt, he confirmed that it ranges between 7-10wt and that MSDS info can shed more light on it. Just thought I would throw that in in case anyone else is thinking about using it. It's right where I want to be so I'm using it when I install the progressives.

What I was hoping for was that your friend would have found what brand was 10wt for example.

[CaseyJ955]

What I was hoping for was that your friend would have found what brand was 10wt for example.

 

He said that it does vary from brand to brand and that the MSDS info would be more specific on a brand. I downloaded the MSDS sheet for the Valvoline and I dont see any wt specification but it has plenty of other information. I'll search around later and see if I can find the info, I would like to know. I'm not sure I would feel the difference but anything less than 10wt would seem a little light to me but I have yet to experiment with to many different wts on different steeds.

[bongobobny]

Yes I tend to agree with you, less than 10W would make suspension kind of mushy, like there was just air, not hydraulic fluid in there! Of course as you stated earlier you are looking for kind of a soft suspension for travelling over gravel and rough terrain. Keep us posted on this, we all would like to know how it works out for you!

[camos]

He said that it does vary from brand to brand and that the MSDS info would be more specific on a brand. I downloaded the MSDS sheet for the Valvoline and I dont see any wt specification but it has plenty of other information. I'll search around later and see if I can find the info, I would like to know. I'm not sure I would feel the difference but anything less than 10wt would seem a little light to me but I have yet to experiment with to many different wts on different steeds.

I understand that we can all experiment with the various brands to find one that we like. Being able to tap into other peoples experience is valuable. That is what makes VR.org such a great place.

 

Your friend and those on the other site you mentioned seem to have had an interest in finding a reasonable replacement for fork oil, more so than members here. What they have learned should be a very helpful starting point for us.

[CaseyJ955]

I understand that we can all experiment with the various brands to find one that we like. Being able to tap into other peoples experience is valuable. That is what makes VR.org such a great place.

 

Your friend and those on the other site you mentioned seem to have had an interest in finding a reasonable replacement for fork oil, more so than members here. What they have learned should be a very helpful starting point for us.

 

Its true. I can see how my Vmax experience and things I have taken from the other board will lend nicely to getting this Venture dialed in. Thinking that the tuning experience should be valuable but I'm still going to have to read about float levels and jetting/needles.

 

I know I mentioned it before but the Synth imp ps/at fluid with the progressives in the Vmax seems perfect, it feels like a modern road bike instead of an outdated pig, when I got that bike it was also nervous, harsh and jittery.

 

I'm confident and anxious to get the same treatment on the Venture. What we should do is fish for someone thats not doing the springs, but only the oil and see what results the oil alone yield. I considered just doing that in the name of science but I really have to get this sorted so I can take a trip before the weather turns, the tourists are going home and I always loved to go to MT through Tetons/Yellowstone outside peak season and continue my hunt for a cheap rural fixer upper house to retire in. I'll post my results in a new or existing fork thread so that someone searching for the information can find it. I cant thank you guys enough for all the information in finding the starting point for tires and fork parts.

[camos]

I'll post my results in a new or existing fork thread so that someone searching for the information can find it. I cant thank you guys enough for all the information in finding the starting point for tires and fork parts.

I recently replaced the fork oil in my 89 with commonly available AW32 Hydraulic Oil. It feels quite firm yet very close to whatever was in there before. Sadly, I don't know what the previously used oil was. In two years I will change the oil again and will probably try the Valvoline ATF that has recently been mentioned. A one person comparison process can be a bit lengthy.

[CaseyJ955]

I recently replaced the fork oil in my 89 with commonly available AW32 Hydraulic Oil. It feels quite firm yet very close to whatever was in there before. Sadly, I don't know what the previously used oil was. In two years I will change the oil again and will probably try the Valvoline ATF that has recently been mentioned. A one person comparison process can be a bit lengthy.

 

It sure can be. When you try the ATF make sure it's for imports. Not sure why that was important but it was strongly stressed by the guy that builds custom bikes and races Vmaxes as well as selling OEM and aftermarket parts. He has a tutorial on Youtube of rebuilding the Vmax forks, his 11 yo daughter was doing a lot of the work. Good watch.

 

I like a little softer over firmer only because I live in a place where the scenic rides just go on for hours and I end up in the saddle for extended periods, comfort is my first concern and road manners just under that. I know that different forks behave differently with different weights and so far the lighter fluid wt does not even hint at being mushy but I feel like the progressives have a lot to do with that too. OEM springs in these older bikes are just plain bad on top of being old. I say that as having cut my teeth in the early 80s on bikes dating back to 59. They suck on many current models too, and the cost of updating vs the results IMHO make it the single most cost effective mod available for an aging bike.