Evolution of "AZZI" a mild mannered MKII to "AZZI-MAX"

[Trader]

Would it be possible to do a side be side pic of the valves?

Im assuming the vmax are larger???

 

just for comparison sake

[Flyinfool]

See now this is where I get into trouble all the time.

I would take the heads down into my man cave and mill them a bit, a little more compression never hurts in a high performance engine. You just might have to run premium gas if you mill the heads. But sanding the scratches out would work to. Just not as much fun................

 

The dimension that I need is the diameter of the tube that the clamp goes over. So it is not the end that goes into the block, I need the diameter of the tube that is welded to the one that goes into the block. Did that make sense? Its early in the morning and I have not had my chocolate milk yet..............

[bongobobny]

A mixture of acetone and elbow grease helps clean the gasket surfaces. Yes, Jamsie gave you the right advice for flat lapping a surface, figure 8's!!

 

Hard to really tell from the pictures, but no, the crankshaft journals seem to be in good shape, need a much bigger closeup of the bearings to really tell their condition but you may be in good shape. Just remember with any moving part i.e. all bearings on head and block to make absolutely sure they go back in the exact same place and the exact same direction! That includes the cams!!

 

If you can get away without replacing the bearings all the better because then you would have to polish the crank and then resize bearings, that gets involved and expensive...

[videoarizona]

The corrosion on the cylinder wall looks to me like typical Arizona hard water scale.

 

Looks good, James!

david

[cowpuc]

AWESOME - looking awesome Riv!! As always, these guys are batting 100% IMHO.. Only want to add - with it apart and open, the dingle berry hone will NOT be worthy - you really should follow Fool's original thoughts and go with stones. Probably not a bad idea to find and actual framed cylinder hone if you can locate one - the type that holds the stones securely so you dont end up with high spots .. The spring arm type would definitely be better than dingle berrys but, if you can locate one of the frame types - they do an amazing job of chasing out ridges and pits while holding a good bore with no taper..

Concerning resurfacing the heads. Personally I would take a good fine flat file (I would use a Mill too if I had one in my back pocket like Jeff does ), lay it across the surface and lightly pivot it back and forth from the handle end across the surface (like the sweeping hands of a clock) to locate and remove any dinged high spots before I started lapping the surface - finish lapping like has been mentioned is perfect - dont want to be lapping at an angle from riding on high spots so to speak.

As your working the high spot of the repair area that we talked about, it appeared to me that there was plenty of weld to rework the surface with. In that spot I would carefully flat file in a normal filing way until I just started seeing file contact on the machined surface and then switch to a lap as mentioned.

Not real sure on our Ventures but some of the modern day stuff you had to watch how much surface you pulled when lapping valves in as they were coated valves.. Others you could lap with no fear.. Will take a peak in my shop manual and see if it says anything about it if you havent already checked.

I know that one head had the cams already removed.. With Bob mentioning the need to make sure all the caps/bearings get back in their original positions (100% in agreement with him - LOVED seeing you had replaced the rod caps on the rods in the pictures, PERFECT way to keep track of em!) it dawned on me that may be a little difficult with that head. I did not examine the cam journal caps closely but you may want to. It is possible that the guy Larry got the parts from originally marked those caps before taking them off - thats pretty common. If not - you may want to make sure the cams spin free after tightening down the caps and may have to move them around like your playing checkers to find just the right "feel" on the journals - I have a gut feeling this really wont be much of an issue - not like we were talking rod bearings as the main support for the cams are actually the saddles they set in - but you REALLY need to make sure you have no binding going on for sure - dont forget to prelube everything when putting together.

Looking at the cooling system - I would replace the thermostat while you this far down,, thats kind of a bugger of a job to do on the roadside.

 

Gotta run - LOOKING GREAT BROTHER!!

Keep the faith!

Puc

[cowpuc]

Yep,, looks like a normal valve job by the book = lap em in brother! Should be good to go there..

[VanRiver]

Would it be possible to do a side be side pic of the valves?

Im assuming the vmax are larger??? just for comparison sake

 

Hi @Trader great idea on the comparison! I ran down to the auto parts store and picked up a Cheapie calliper and pulled a Intake and Exhast valve from both heads for your comparison. So before we begin, I want to clearly state that we are comparing valves from a 1986 Venture 1300cc head with a 1989 V-Max 1200cc head...just in case sizes changed by years (which I doubt but just in case). Also these pictures and measurements were taken BEFORE the valves were cleaned and lapped.

 

Well to say the least I was shocked with the results. I was expecting a fairly significant differenence but that was not the case. Here is what i measured via my "Made in China" digital caliper:

 

- Venture Intake Valve diameter was 29.05mm and the V-max Intake Valve diameter was 30.65mm

- Venture Exhaust Valve diameter was 24.02mm and the V-max exhaust Valve diameter was 25.05mm

 

So long story short, the V-max is larger, but only by approximatly 1mm to 1.5mm.

 

Also as I was handling both valves to take the measurements it felt as if the Venture valves were heavier and thicker. Now I did not weigh them or try to take other dimensional measurements so it could be just in my head, but to the touch the Venture Valves felt more robust compared to the V-max.

 

Here are some pictures to show my findings:

 

[VanRiver]

You got it @Flyinfool I think I know what you mean, but if I gave the wrong measurement just let me know and I will try again.

 

Here is a pic showing the OD of the tube the bracket needs to go over:

 

See now this is where I get into trouble all the time.

I would take the heads down into my man cave and mill them a bit, a little more compression never hurts in a high performance engine. You just might have to run premium gas if you mill the heads. But sanding the scratches out would work to. Just not as much fun................

 

The dimension that I need is the diameter of the tube that the clamp goes over. So it is not the end that goes into the block, I need the diameter of the tube that is welded to the one that goes into the block. Did that make sense? Its early in the morning and I have not had my chocolate milk yet..............

Edited August 3, 2016 by VanRiver

[VanRiver]

Hey @cowpuc, remember how you were saying that corrosion in the valves might be there reason for lower compression numbers back when I first did my tests on Maxine the Donor Engine.....well you nailed it buddy!

 

Here is what a valve looked like from the original Maxine Venture head when I pulled it to take measurements for @Trader. No wonder it wasn't sealing properly, and this was from one of the "good cylinders" too!

 

Edited August 3, 2016 by VanRiver

[Flyinfool]

You got it @Flyinfool I think I know what you mean, but if I gave the wrong measurement just let me know and I will try again.

 

Here is a pic showing the OD of the tube the bracket needs to go over:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]106731[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]106732[/ATTACH]

 

Hey @cowpuc, remember how you were saying that corrosion in the valves might be there reason for lower compression numbers back when I first did my tests on Maxine the Donor Engine.....well you nailed it buddy!

 

Here is what a valve looked like from the original Maxine Venture head when I pulled it to take measurements for @Trader. No wonder it wasn't sealing properly, and this was from one of the "good cylinders" too!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]106733[/ATTACH]

 

Your attachments are coming up as bad links................

[VanRiver]

Your attachments are coming up as bad links................

 

That is Weird....maybe I have worn out the upload process with too many pictures in this thread!

 

I have edited my original posts and reinserted the pictures again. Can you see them now?

[Freebird]

I'm seeing them.

[Trader]

Funny...venture valves do look beefier...you'ld expect the other way around!

[VanRiver]

Update from today. Since AZZI will have more "giddy up" with he new V-max upgrades and motor refresh, I thought it would be wise to give her some more stopping ability as well. I already upgraded the Callipers to R1's gold dots last time I was down, but today I de-coupled the brakes and installed stainless braided lines. The date of 11/1985 was marked on my old rubber lines so I think it was past due for a replacement.

 

Although I have an old Honda V45 magna brake splitter in my bucket of spare parts that I could have used for the decoupling project like many on this forum have done.....I decided to go in a different direction for the front brakes and just used two long 45" lines and a double Banjo Bolt connection right at the handlebar brake lever. The reason for this was, I'm cheap!!! I could buy the two 45" stainless lines on Amazon cheaper then buying 3 shorter hoses and using the splitter I already had. The two 45" lines were only $18.99 each, so a pretty cheap upgrade IMHO. I'm still waiting for my rear stainless braided hose to arrive.

 

 

My hone finally arrived by the friendly UPS guy today, so hopefully tonight I can get the cylinders all cleaned up and ready for the new rings (when and if they arrive in time!).

[VanRiver]

Well it was a big day today for me...first time I've ever honed a cylinder. You never forget your first time, right!

 

I took it slow, and really tried for the cross hatch pattern to be between 30 - 45 degrees.....oh and to clean out all the corrosion and abuse this poor Maxine Donor engine has been through by sitting neglected for so many years too. All 4 cylinders are now done and I think they look pretty good if I do say so myself!

 

Here is a Before and After shot of Cylinder #4 , which had the lowest compression and the most corrosion.

 

Before Shot:

 

And after Honing:

 

[bongobobny]

Lookin' good!!

[Flyinfool]

Pics all look good since you reposted them. Thanks.

 

That 18mm is the dimension that I needed, I was close guessing at 20 mm, simple change to my drawing.

 

Your cross hatch pattern looks pretty good.

 

 

Now I just have to figure out how to actually make that fancy bend at the top with the tools that I have to work with.

OR maybe this will be a good reason to go and get that 20 ton shop press..............

Now where is that 25% off HF coupon.................

[Flyinfool]

OOpie!

[Flyinfool]

I found it.

I found the guy you can buy this bracket from.

http://www.v-max-f-maerz.de/vmaxkatalog/990/993e_en.html

It comes with an oil pan gasket. I am not sure if it includes a new O-ring.

It would be coming from Germany. He is very proud of his work.

I have no idea why he is making it out of stainle$$ Steel, it is in the oil pan it better not rust.

[Guest Jamsie]

@Flinfoolgood job on finding ready made pipe bracket for van.

btw van , how did you make sure you got no fine particles in the crank case when you honed them

[cowpuc]

Funny...venture valves do look beefier...you'ld expect the other way around!

 

Cant help but wonder if higher R's from the Max reguire the valves to be a little lighter..

 

Well it was a big day today for me...first time I've ever honed a cylinder. You never forget your first time, right!

 

I took it slow, and really tried for the cross hatch pattern to be between 30 - 45 degrees.....oh and to clean out all the corrosion and abuse this poor Maxine Donor engine has been through by sitting neglected for so many years too. All 4 cylinders are now done and I think they look pretty good if I do say so myself!

 

Here is a Before and After shot of Cylinder #4 , which had the lowest compression and the most corrosion.

 

Before Shot:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]106749[/ATTACH]

 

And after Honing:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]106750[/ATTACH]

 

BEAUTIFUL Riv!!:thumbsup: Looks like they cleaned up real pretty!

 

Personally, I like to drop a Dial Bore into the jug just to double check my work for taper and oversizing on the hone.. This can also be done by measuring ring end gap (which is not a bad anyway when installing new rings). My personal rule of thumb for end gap is 10 to 20 thou is good on a non high compression "built" motor. 25 thou is pushing the limit and 30 is oversize/bore job time.. You probably all ready know this but I will go here any way, easy way to check end gap is to drop in the top new ring which is usually a "flat faced" compression ring (2nd is usually a scraper and 3rd usually an oil ring). Check the new ring for any "burrs" on its gap edges (where it splits). Squeeze it together and push the new ring into the bore (clean the bore really well and lube it first), slip a clean piston in on top of the ring and push it up the bore, remove the piston and check the gap on the ring with a feeler gauge - simple but effective.. Move the ring up or down the jug with the piston - check it in several places along the length of the stroke and see what it like. Not just looking for oversizing on the hone job but also looking for taper - make sense?

 

Makes me thinking we gotta hang this up till Christmas Riv .. Hope you folks have a safe journey back to the North Country my friend!!

[VanRiver]

Yup, time to pack it up and head back to the tundra of Canada. I didn't get as far as I wanted with "Maxine the Donor Engine", as my parts were delayed in shipping unfortunately. So the rings didn't show up on time nor did the cross over tube and o-rings for the heads. So long story short I will need to wake this thread up again the next time we come down to the AZ dessert. Stay tuned, hopefully she will run again...if I can remember how all the parts go back together!

 

Oh, one last thing.....What color should this "AZZI-MAX" engine eventually be painted? Should it be "Venture Silver", "V-max Black", or something more exotic such as "Gold" or "Copper".....or "Red" since Red parts go faster? Please note that AZZI is a 1986 Brown coloured bike on the outside and will stay that way.

 

Edited August 6, 2016 by VanRiver

[VanRiver]

Hi @Jamsie, good question! I tried very hard to keep the particles out of the crank case by packing rags and plastic at the bottom of the Cylinders and covering the crank....but to your point that was not a perfect process. So once it is all done I plan on flushing the internals with diesel as well to get any remaining sludge and hopefully any particles out before I start closing her up again. I then plan on filling her up with cheap oil and spinning her via the starter only to redcoat the bearings and flushing it 2-3 oil changes this way before she actually gets fired for real.

 

Still not a perfect process but "it is what it is"....this is a project for a bike that will probably get ridden 1,000 KM per year while I'm on vacation. I highly doubt my "hack job" will allow the engine to run another carefree 200,000 KM, but I think it will accomplish the goal I set out to do which was learn, have fun turning wrenches, replace a tired high mileage oil gushing engine, and do it without spending a ton of cash. Also if I like the Venture V-max combo, I will have AZZI's original engine as a spare, plus I have an additional set of V-max heads sitting on the shelf so I could do that engine up as well, but invest to have it done "proper" the second time around.

 

The great thing about DIY projects is that if I have a failure due to one of my mistakes I only have one person to blame.....I find that so much easier to mentally deal with compared to paying big bucks to a "professional" and still having failures.....I have a long list of those "Professionals" making mistakes unfortunately.

 

@Flinfoolgood job on finding ready made pipe bracket for van.

btw van , how did you make sure you got no fine particles in the crank case when you honed them

[VanRiver]

Thanks Puc! Yes, all good things must come to an end. But the way the summer flew by, Christmas will probably be here before we know it! I tried to distract @Flyinfool by asking him lots of mechanical questions (he is one smart fella!) so he doesn't start working on his winter snow plans too early!

 

Puc, you are to blame for me even starting this project!!! If you hadn't sold me all those shiny and pretty V-max parts from Tweeksis' collection, then my fingernails would still be clean, I would have a better tan from spending more time in the pool, and I could have stayed in the nice air conditioned house rather then the "Oven" I call my garage! Na, no that isn't me....Best Vacation Ever! Thanks again Buddy!!!

 

Makes me thinking we gotta hang this up till Christmas Riv .. Hope you folks have a safe journey back to the North Country my friend!!

[bongobobny]

Yah! You want to really wipe your journals on the crank SPOTLESS!! that's the most important area where even one little particle of metal can really mess up your bearings!!! Use a good solvent and lint free rag...