Evolution of "AZZI" a mild mannered MKII to "AZZI-MAX"

[Trader]

No! Forget what those guys are saying!

Just give up on it.

Pack those vmax parts in a strong box and send them to me!

:smile5::Avatars_Gee_George:

 

Really I think it totally depends on you.

Do you want to get in that deep?

If you go there then you are into replacing bearings and who knows what else.

You said this was a vacation project ...how much vacation do you have?

Also...$$$$$$

 

I would be tempted to just switch heads. It would only mean loosing AZZI for a few days.

[Flyinfool]

Those pics worry me.

It looks like there is a water line around the bore. Like it sat for some time with a significant amount of water in the cylinder. The water lines look to be at about the correct angles for the bike sitting on a level surface on the side stand. I would be worried that it was hydro locked and may have a bent rod. How much of that water made it into the crankcase and may have caused rust in there?

 

I think you need to split the case just to be sure that the bottom end is good. And then while you are in there............................

 

Get it bored, bigger pistons to kick it up to 1500 or even 1700cc.

 

I always get in trouble with the "while you are in there" part...........

[cowpuc]

RATTSSSSSSS,,, sorry to see this Riv - like you I was for a little better image in there - I hate when that happens.. On the same token though - I have seen wayyyy worse..

 

I am gonna approach this from an experimental "working off a tight budget standpoint".. Run the piston's down to BDC, seal em off with a layer of cardboard with grease along the edges of the cardboard to protect the rings, beg - borrow or steal (ok,, dont steal - buy one if ya have to) a dingle berry hone and clean the jugs up, pull the inspection cover off the crank, spin it up off the crank with a drill motor while letting the cam chains roll thru your hands, check the ring surfaces for any apparent broken ring marks, stick the V-Max heads on it, put it back in the frame it came out of originally in total temporary test mode - start it up and see what it sounds, feels, smells and acts like - a total science experiment that may or may not work out..

[Flyinfool]

Puc, back in post 20 the frame was cut up and disposed of.

 

Since you have the heads off run a free test.

Mount a protractor to the crank for reference.

Run each piston up to TDC and measure the distance from the top of the piston to the deck. Do the same at each 90° of rotation. They should all be the same. If one piston is lower than the rest you may have a bent rod on that cylinder that would warrant a tear down and inspection of the rods. If all that checks out good, then use Pucs idea to run each piston to BDC and lightly hone the walls the best you can and go on with the rebuild.

 

Although I think I would use a set of stone over the dingle balls just because it will get to a half inch more of the bore.

 

You have to run the drill really slow with the hone so that you can move it up and down fast enough to get close to a 30° hatch pattern.

 

I don't know if there is room but since you have the engine out and on a stand, flip it over and pop off the oil pan and take a peak in there. you may be able to tie the cam chain away from the sprocket so that you can spin the engine with a big drill without having to worry about the cam chains getting caught up.

 

Just thinking out loud here.

[venturesome]

[cowpuc]

Puc, back in post 20 the frame was cut up and disposed of.

 

Since you have the heads off run a free test.

Mount a protractor to the crank for reference.

Run each piston up to TDC and measure the distance from the top of the piston to the deck. Do the same at each 90° of rotation. They should all be the same. If one piston is lower than the rest you may have a bent rod on that cylinder that would warrant a tear down and inspection of the rods. If all that checks out good, then use Pucs idea to run each piston to BDC and lightly hone the walls the best you can and go on with the rebuild.

 

Although I think I would use a set of stone over the dingle balls just because it will get to a half inch more of the bore.

 

You have to run the drill really slow with the hone so that you can move it up and down fast enough to get close to a 30° hatch pattern.

 

I don't know if there is room but since you have the engine out and on a stand, flip it over and pop off the oil pan and take a peak in there. you may be able to tie the cam chain away from the sprocket so that you can spin the engine with a big drill without having to worry about the cam chains getting caught up.

 

Just thinking out loud here.

Yep,, totally forgot about the fact that the test stand (Maxine the donor scoot) is all gone - that earlier response was a drive by response if there ever was one - thanks for catching that Fool..

Back to the subject at hand here.. I am with Jeff on measuring piston height - even a quick check with a set of Verniers at TDC could tell alot. IMHO, a lot of info could also be had from examining the oil that was in Maxine's motor Riv. How much water is in it? After pulling the oil and letting it drain good - pulling the pan and shining a pin light on the internals to see if rust has started forming is a good idea too..

Ya know,, the more I think about all this the more I am inclined to go with the idea of just holding a memorial service for Maxine, be thankful you only have 100 bucks in it so far (I know Riv - I TOTALLY respect the thought that 100 bucks is a fair chunk of change to just toss by the wayside BUT - figuring that if you do pull it down - put new bearings and on and on into only to discover you got a cracked block or a bad bearing in the tranny from rust accumulation somewhere or whatever - you see where I am going I am sure) and focus the attention on AZZI. AZZI has the advantage of having a proven motor to massage. Cost wise, both in time and $$ - seems like that would be the most economical..

I implore you not to be to discouraged by your recent findings Riv - basically its all just part of the world of Hot Rodding or playing with this stuff.. Sometimes it works, sometimes it dont - bottom line = you can't win em all,, ,, BUT YOU CAN TRY:big-grin-emoticon::thumbsup:

[VanRiver]

Thanks everyone for your fantastic insight and suggestions! And please don't get me wrong, as I'm not discouraged! I'm doing this project for the fun of it and to learn! If everything went smooth and perfect it would be totally boring, or I would simply send it out to professionals to do it form me! Plus, I haven't been this deep into a “big" motor like this before...and probably wouldn't have the courage to do this without my "Venture Support and Rehab group”! You guys/gals and this forum are the best!!! Sorry @Trader I'm not ready pack up the V-max parts and sending them to you just yet!

 

OK todays update....family went to the mall for 2 hours so I ran to the garage to turn some wrenches.

 

I really don't want to go down the path of splitting the block and redoing all the bearings etc.....I'm on a budget and it would really delay my project too (order all the parts up to Canada and then bringing them back to AZ for the next vacation trip). But on the flip side, I don't just want to slap it together and "hope for the best" either. So I proceeded to follow @Flyinfools and @cowpuc advice, and I focused on measuring to make sure there was no bent rods as well as I pulled the oil pan to take a look inside to see if the water and corrosion went deeper.

 

Well @Flyinfool, good news! All measured the same so I think we are A-OK and no bent rod or Hydrolock history! Yippie!

 

@cowpuc I pulled the oil pan and things look pretty good in there! There is no evidence of corrosion down there. The original oil in “Maxine" was sludgy and black but no evidence of any coolant or water in it when I originally drained it. And before I started to pull her all apart I put fresh oil with some marvels mastery oil added and then I cranked it with the starter and let it sit for a couple of days to help clean her out and drained it again when I started all my wrench turning.

 

SO...my theory is that possibly this moister and corrosion in the 2 cylinders was probably caused by moisture entering while it was in storage with the carbs off....mayby stored outside and some rain got in rather then a coolant leak....The bike has been in pieces and in storage for almost 10 years according the previous owner. And if he stored it outside with just rags stuffed in the intake during a few Arizona monsoons then water probably found it’s way into the 2 high side cylinders. So although corrosion and water is bad, in this case I think it is the best of a bad situation and hopefully solved when I clean them up with a hone.

 

So this is what I'm thinking of doing in the interest of trying to do the Job as "right" as I can while also taking the cheap skate route.

 

1. I think I'm going to pull the rods and pistons out. I can access them via the oil pan without the need to split the case.

2. I'm going to hone the cylinders (with Cylinders out) to see if I can remove the rough areas from the corrosion and glazed areas on the good cylinders. I know you guys suggested honing with the cylinders in, but I’m worried about doing that for the sake of marking my piston or creating a taper inside if the hone is not doing complete strokes of the full cylinder wall.

3. I think it is probably wise that I splurge and spend some cash and replace the rings. Even if the current ones are good the motor still had 57,000 documented miles on it so probably worth the extra $150 anyways…..do you agree?

Here are a few pic’s of the inside via the oil pan. Looks pretty good from my novice perspective. Do you agree? The motor spins very free and smooth and shifts through all the gears nice and smooth on the stand.

Here is a pic immediately after I took the oil pan off…..no bad coloured oil, just 10 years of storage sludge build up.

 

 

Here are a couple of pics of the deep guts of the crank, rods, and back sides of the pistons:

 

 

One weird thing I did see is that the o-ring on the Oil pipe coming from the Filter housing has budged out on one side.....wonder if that had any impact on oil flow or pressure?

 

 

So what do you think? Look better now that you can see deeper inside?

[bongobobny]

You will be amazed at what some kerosene and a scrub brush can do on that sludge!! A toothbrush works wonders for getting into the tight places!

 

All in all it doesn't look bad at all. But no, bulging o rings are not a good thing...

[Flyinfool]

Good news on it looking like no bent rods.

The water must have evaporated out of the bores while it was stored and not running, avoiding the possible hydro lock and being pumped thru the oil system.

 

If you do pull the pistons you will have a good chance to examine the con rod bearings. I'll bet that bulged o ring did cause a reduction of oil flow and pressure, it does not look like it got low enough to do any damage.

 

I thought I remember something about it being common for that o-ring to blow out and the cure was to rig up something to hold the pipe down tighter so that the oil pressure can not push it up enough to let the o-ring escape. The stock brackets are to flimsy to hold back the pressure. I can not find where I saw that and it was a long time ago that I saw that, and I am old with a bad case of CRS. What was it we were talking about?????? Oh yea it was food................

[Flyinfool]

I found some info on that oil line. It is on a V-Max site but sure looks like what you have going on.

http://www.awol.co.za/LeakingOringOilFilterSupply.htm

[VanRiver]

Thanks @Flyinfool for the link! In all my research this is the first time I've heard about this problem! "9 out of 10 V-max engines have the bulging o-ring problem" according to the link.....so it looks like I'm part of the group rather then the exception. Wonder If I have that on my other Ventures too?

 

I found some info on that oil line. It is on a V-Max site but sure looks like what you have going on.

http://www.awol.co.za/LeakingOringOilFilterSupply.htm

[Flyinfool]

Rereading that it also makes me wonder if it is on my bike.

 

I found the info on making the bracket to hold the pipe down.

http://www.vmaxchat.co.uk/jonp/enginesaver/

 

I have a completely disassembled parts motor from an 85, I'll try to get to it tonight and see if I can figure out what this bracket might be and how to implement his fixes.

 

I think this winter my oil pan is coming off to take a peak in there at my o-ring.

 

It appears that the newer pipe he refers to 26h-y1319-10-00 (old pipe P/N 26h-y1319-01-00) is also used on the 96 and newer RSVs. It appears to be readily available and runs $75-$80. Or do the mods that he shows and fab up a bracket to hold it in place better.

 

The original article that saw many years ago did go into the detail of making and installing the bracket. But I still have not found that one. It was a LONG time ago and it is possible that the site I remember no longer exists.

[cowpuc]

AWESOME x10000000 Riv = LOOKS GREAT and sounds like your on it like a hound chasing a lop eared rabbit varmint:Bunny: !!! Right there with ya 100% on a good honing and some new rings - nothing like a refresh!

 

Ya know,, I too remember hearing about that bulging o-ring business years ago,, for some reason I thought it was more common in the early v-max's and due to the higher R's creating more oil pressure.. Guess I should have paid more attention in class ... Good on ya for opening Maxine's motor up and finding all the good stuff you have found Riv = look's like AZZI and RIV are gonna be able to cut the ride time in half when they head for a Hot Dog in Michigan from Arizona next year

[cowpuc]

Rereading that it also makes me wonder if it is on my bike.

 

I found the info on making the bracket to hold the pipe down.

http://www.vmaxchat.co.uk/jonp/enginesaver/

 

I have a completely disassembled parts motor from an 85, I'll try to get to it tonight and see if I can figure out what this bracket might be and how to implement his fixes.

 

I think this winter my oil pan is coming off to take a peak in there at my o-ring.

 

It appears that the newer pipe he refers to 26h-y1319-10-00 (old pipe P/N 26h-y1319-01-00) is also used on the 96 and newer RSVs. It appears to be readily available and runs $75-$80. Or do the mods that he shows and fab up a bracket to hold it in place better.

 

The original article that saw many years ago did go into the detail of making and installing the bracket. But I still have not found that one. It was a LONG time ago and it is possible that the site I remember no longer exists.

 

 

Excellent info Jeff:thumbsup:!! I can just hear the wrenches spinning in the garages of 1st Gen owners all across the world - let the oil pan pulling begin brothers and sisters

[Flyinfool]

Well mine has not died in 30 years so it should be fine till winter. shows up and WE are up to our armpits in that lovely white stuff. That will be the perfect time to pull my pan to have a peak.

 

I even found in one of the articles that I read that IF you have a bore scope you can pull the oil level sensor and get up in there to inspect the O-ring and not have to actually pull the pan unless your O-ring is popped.

 

There is also a test for the popped O-ring.

1. Get the warmed up to normal temp.

2. Shut off engine.

3. Put bike on center stand, (do what you have to do to hold bike straight up if you have a 2nd gen).

4. Wait about 15 minutes for the oil to drain back to the bottom.

5. While watching the oil sight glass start the engine, the oil level should immediately drop from the full mark to the bottom of the sight glass or lower.

6. If the oil level does not drop immediately then odds are good that you have popped your O-ring. If the oil level drops slow, you may have pushed the O-ring out just a little.

 

It is generally believed that cranking on the engine with high RPMs before it has warmed up for at least 15 minutes is the reason the O-ring pops in the first place. The thicker cold oil will generate more pressure at high RPM than what the pressure regulator can bleed off, so the engine finds some other way to relieve the pressure.

 

This is probably not as common of an issue for Ventures due to the lower red line, but as it was just proven here, it is possible. I can see where it could be more likely for those that like to run heavier than recommended oil like a 20W50. The oil pump is a positive displacement pump it will move the oil, thicker oil will create higher pressures especially when cold.

 

Back to your regularly scheduled programing. We may need to start a new thread for just this issue so as not to totally hijack this wonderful thread.

[VanRiver]

Hey @Flyinfool I love these type of super informative "Thread Hijacks".....feel free to do it ANYTIME in my threads!

 

So I guess Mother Yamaha does make mistakes every now and then. That bracket looks like a pretty slick solution to beat the "battle of the bulge".

[cowpuc]

Seems how Riv is the type of lop eared varmint who dont mind a friendly between varmints (my kinda guy there Riv) = couple more thoughts.. Kind of wonder if good ol "what about BOB (battle of the bulge)" wouldn't show up on the display screen as an intermittent low oil pressure icon (that little oil can flickering at idle).. Also,, anyone ever take the time to plumb up an actual oil pressure gauge on one of these sweethearts? Seems like that would also give a clue if one of our scoots were hemoraging internally..

Fool - LOVE your thoughts brother = good stuff = know what I mean Vern:sign kewl:.. Thanks Riv for letting us

[bongobobny]

Yes, there was a guy on Fleabay selling oil pressure kits a few years ago. It has a nice pressure gauge and ss hydraulic hose and fitting to screw in. I have one somewhere...

[Flyinfool]

There are a few places that make an oil pressure gauge for our engines just for this purpose.

 

I still have not found where to actually buy this bracket. BUt since the drawings were provided I may try to make one or more. since you are already in there, you may get to be the guinea pig. I Will need a couple dimensions from Maxine for the couple of key dimensions that were omitted from the drawings.

There was also info on how to modify your existing pipe if you are to cheap to buy one.

[VanRiver]

Good on ya for opening Maxine's motor up and finding all the good stuff you have found Riv = look's like AZZI and RIV are gonna be able to cut the ride time in half when they head for a Hot Dog in Michigan from Arizona next year

 

Hey @cowpuc I opened her up because the "Garage Forman" (that is you by the way) planted the thought in my head and suggested it. You are the "Bad Influence" that gave me the confidence to crack her open! I love good advice!!! But, I have parts and pieces scattered all over the garage now! Hope I can put "Humpty back together again"!

 

As for getting to Michigan in half the time, might need to build "AZZI-Jet" instead of "AZZI-Max" for that trip.....but hopefully I can partake in one of those legendary hotdogs someday with ya Buddy!!!!

 

[VanRiver]

Hi @Flyinfool you got it buddy! Let me know what you need and I will be happy to provide it while Maxine the Donor engine is cracked open to the world.

 

My Vacation is unfortunately coming to an end on Saturday so no more fun and wrench turning on the AZZI project until probably Christmas vacation, so let me know before Saturday and I will send you whatever you need ASAP. Jeff, I would be honoured to be your first paying customer if you decide to make some of those brackets to sell.

 

There are a few places that make an oil pressure gauge for our engines just for this purpose.

 

I still have not found where to actually buy this bracket. BUt since the drawings were provided I may try to make one or more. since you are already in there, you may get to be the guinea pig. I Will need a couple dimensions from Maxine for the couple of key dimensions that were omitted from the drawings.

There was also info on how to modify your existing pipe if you are to cheap to buy one.

[cowpuc]

Hey @cowpuc I opened her up because the "Garage Forman" (that is you by the way) planted the thought in my head and suggested it. You are the "Bad Influence" that gave me the confidence to crack her open! I love good advice!!! But, I have parts and pieces scattered all over the garage now! Hope I can put "Humpty back together again"!

 

As for getting to Michigan in half the time, might need to build "AZZI-Jet" instead of "AZZI-Max" for that trip.....but hopefully I can partake in one of those legendary hotdogs someday with ya Buddy!!!!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]106692[/ATTACH]

 

:lightbulb:If the Flyin the ointment Fool doesnt notice someone stole them parts off his Snoper Charger to build that thang and have them replaced before Christmas, you may be able to jump on AZZI and come up for a Hot Dog during your next vacation

 

Trust me Riv - this ol "Garage Foreman" knows EXACTLY how your feeling about the parts delima.. Speaking about being a garage foreman - one of the funnest times I have had in modern day history had to do with a Meet n Greet that @ragtop69gs and his lovely wife Jeannie put on.. @bongobobny and I sat around giving instructions to those working on someone's scoot.. Thinking Bob was the General Foreman on that job and I ended up somewhere in Mid Management - sooo much fun

[VanRiver]

Well, here is todays wrench turning update.

 

I pulled the pistons out today in preparation for honing the cylinders. Everything looks great, pistons rings, bearings all appear to be A-OK which substantiates the theory that water got into the cylinders while in storage and evaporated out in the hot Arizona sun, but not before leaving some corrosion behind. There is some evidence of bearing wear, but nothing abnormal for a motor with approx 57,000 documented miles (according to my novice eye). For the sake of cost and effort I will only be honing the cylinders and replacing the rings.....but will be using the existing rod bearings.

 

So now the waiting game begins....I ordered the new Rings from Partzilla yesterday....plus a hone and ring compressor from Amazon. Looks like the stuff from Amazon will be here in 2 days but the Rings will be here in 4 days. Since my vacation time is running out and I'm an "instant gratification" type of guy I might check out one of the local auto parts stores that has a rental tool option, as I think I could probably rent a hone if I didn't want to wait for the one I ordered....we will see.

 

I also disassembled one of the V-max heads and pulled the valves out in preparation for cleaning, lapping, and seat replacement tomorrow.

 

By the way, I have a couple of question for you experts :

 

1. What is the best product and technique to use to remove any old gasket residue on the heads and block?

2. There are some light but visible scratches on the head surfaces from shipping and being moving around, nothing major but still visible. Should I give it a light sanding on a very flat surface like sandpaper glued to a thick flat sheet of glass just to clean them up? I have seen several videos on Youtube showing that procedure. I don't think they are major enough to need milling, but I don't want any head gasket leaks either!

 

Your feedback is always welcome!!!!

 

Here are some pics of my work today:

 

Crank bearing surfaces look good:

 

 

All Cylinders need to be cleaned up, here is the worst one with the most corrosion evidence:

 

 

All Rods and pistons look A-OK, but some bearing wear but nothing abnormal from what I can tell:

 

 

Removed the valves from 1 V-max head today using my $12 spring compressor...works great...thanks Amazon! Will be cleaning, lapping, and replacing valve guide seals tomorrow.

 

 

Trying to clean out lots of rust and gunk out of the cooling system....check out the dirty water pump! and this pic was after me wiping and preliminary cleaning. Yuck!

 

 

Poor Maxine the Donor engine ....she sure had a rough life over the past years wasting away, just sitting in a half disassembled state. Criminal what the previous owner did to her. Hopefully she will have a new lease on life once I'm done and hopefully I can figure out how all these parts go back together!!!

 

 

Mother Yamaha always leaves some extra pieces in their engines....So having some extra bolts, pistons, gears, and gaskets left over is not a bad thing? Right?

[Guest Jamsie]

For the cylinder head mating surface, get a sheet of glass and glue a sheet of very fine wet and dry to it .

use a figure of 8 pattern to get rid of the fine scratches.

If that waterpump impeller is plastic, replace it with a metal one , plastic impellers are known to break , just ask puc

[VanRiver]

Thanks @Jamsie ! Yup my impeller is metal so thankfully one less thing to replace. I'll get the sand paper rig built and eliminated the fine scratches like you said. Cheers!