Evolution of "AZZI" a mild mannered MKII to "AZZI-MAX"

[cowpuc]

Just a guess but I DO love to participate in guessing games when it comes to diagnosising stuff like this (should make a poll out of this Riv - we also LOVE polls!!) I am gonna guess you have two intake valves that have corrosion on them from sitting while in the open position.. I have ran into that many times building chops and doing restores on old scoots who the PO's had lost interest in. Always surmised that the alcohol used in fuels had a tendency to not leave much of protective coating on valve faces and corrosion starts pretty quickly.

Many years ago I also did Lawn and Garden repair work - took a sparkplug apart - drilled the center out of it and screwed a shrader valve into it. I could than insert this homemade contraption into a plug hole, spin the blade so the valves were closed and was able to show my customers in a matter of minutes whether their equipment issue was valve related - whistling thru the valves = valve job,, hit em with 20 PSI. I know the plug arrangement on our scoots prohibits doing such a crazy thing on our scoots but I cant help but wonder if you could borrow the tester hose off your compression tester and do something similar.. Just a thought..

Same token though,,, gotta all come apart anyway,, leave the motor on the stand - pull the tappet covers and check the valve clearances - if ya got a couple tight ones ya know the valves have worn to shim time - if ya got a couple way loose, ya know ya got some corrosion holding the valves open..

Nuff of my ,,,, "Do you experts agree or have I possibly missed something in my evaluation?" =

[VanRiver]

Thanks @videoarizona and @cowpuc for the input and advice!

 

Video, I agree I'm too curious to just move on without poking around a bit more with these old heads. Inquiring minds want to know!

 

Puc you are just like Macgyver coming up with the drilled out spark plug and valve! That is a great idea! I did something similar but not as skilled or creative. I used the little rubber end piece from one of the attachments from the compression tester and put it on my compressor air blower attachment and then pushed it hard into he spark plug hole having the rubber make a seal and listened to where air came out. And guess what? On Cylinder #4 which had the lowest compression, air is escaping from the intake valve side at "Top Dead Centre". And on Cylinder #1 which was low but not as low as #4 , it is coming from the exhaust valves at TDC.

 

So long story short, Puc I think you nailed it! Probably a combination of corrosion causing the most compression loss and probably valve adjustment causing some havoc too on the exhaust side. I think AZZI has hid my feeler gauge somewhere in the garage (her fault, not mine of course) so I can't measure until she fesses up and returns it or until I run to the store today and pick up a "spare"?

 

Here is a pic of the cam lobes.....I'm a novice, but doesn't that look like a fair bit of wear on them?

 

[videoarizona]

I'm a novice too, but considering Azzi's mileage...I think that looks pretty darn good!

[bongobobny]

There is also a possibility that the valve leak is due to an out of adjustment valve shim. Strange as it sounds with wear the clearance gets smaller, not larger with wear!! But what the Pucster says about corrosion is also very true!!

 

Moot point if you are installing the VMax heads anyway, just do a valve adjustment job before you button things up. Also, you CAN set up the clearances while the heads are out on the bench...

[cowpuc]

COOL!!!:dancefool:

 

YOU are more than welcome on the advice brother - ANYTIME!! Want some more ??

I just noticed something, our V-4's have non-Hyvo roller chain on the cams.. Cause I love ya Riv and in the spirit of trying to be a helping hand to my friend (not trying to cause you any kind of grief) I think will say something.. If I were going to all the work you are and seeing what I see now - I would carefully check for movement between the links and in the rollers on the cam chain once I had the cams out and the chain relaxed. I would pull the chain taut between my finger and then bend it back and forth against the pins and see how far it would move and watch for movement in the pin bushings. I would also do the same thing only instead of using the bend test - pull hard and relax the chain and watch/feel for any play.. I would do both tests AFTER cleaning the chain good with carb or brake cleaner really good so I knew I wasnt fighting against oil inside the rollers or bushings while checking it (and dont forget to prelube the cam chain during the rebuild process).. No idea if those V-Max heads have stiffer valve springs (wouldnt be surprised - with the higher red line) but if they do,,,, never mind - its irrelavant,, if the cam chain shows play I would take the time to drop a new chain in it and new guides/rollers..

There Riv - that'll teach ya to encourage my nonsense

 

THIS IS WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY FUN - THANKS FOR INCLUDING US YOUNG MAN!!!

[VanRiver]

Thanks @cowpuc, this is exactly the advice and helping hand I'm looking for! Will do on the chain inspection!!! Like you said, I only want to open this engine up once, so I would like to do it RIGHT the first time! I do like turning wrenches, but I like riding much much more on a reliable bike.

 

Wish you were here to be "Garage Supervisor" and keep me on the straight and narrow for this build. Your insight is very MUCH appreciated! I'm always happy to share my steps along the way....hope I'm not boring people...and also adding value so others can learn from my steps and mistakes along the way.

[VanRiver]

Oh @cowpuc, I'm all ears.....what were you going to say about the Valve springs? Yes they are stiffer as I believe they have 2 springs (inner and outer) compared to the single that the ventures have.

 

I'm planning to start to remove and lap the valves tomorrow if the Spring compressor I bought at the auto parts store today works for me on these Yamaha V-max heads.

[Guest Jamsie]

Dunno what your budget is for this project @VanRiver, but i would be tempted to replace all valves, valve guides and cam chain/tensioner/chain guides, just to be sure the stripdown wasnt a waste of time and has to be done again.

Also found an online vmax manual

https://archive.org/stream/printermanual-yamaha-vmax-vmx12-service-manual/yamahavmaxvmx12-service-manual#page/n147/mode/2up

[Trader]

Yes they are stiffer as I believe they have 2 springs (inner and outer) compared to the single that the ventures have.

 

I'm planning on doing the same thing on my 83...and right now I have my 88 apart doing valves on it.

They both had the 2 springs...inner and outer.

 

We should compare notes as we do it...although I'm a lot slower due to time restraints.

 

Did you get the vmax heads with valves and cams in? All I have found are individual components

You might consider getting the video on re-assembling the vmax motor....I learned a lot....things I never would know like Colour markings on valve springs

[frankd]

I've used the same method that 'Puc' mentioned, and it works great. On my 83, after a Chicago winter's snooze, my 83 lost compression in all 4 cylinders and wouldn't start. Well actually when I went to start it for the first time one spring, it almost started, and then died. I went to crank it again, and it spun real fast and you could hear that the compression was low. I made up a spark plug adapter and pressurized each cylinder and fond that all 4 had at least one valve leaking bad--some exhausts, some intakes. Now this bike had about 80,000 miles on it, but when I stored it in the fall, it ran great. I pulled one of the valve covers and measured the valve clearance---on some of the valves it was way more than expected. The only way that the clearance could increase that I thought of was to have some debris between the valve and the seat causing the valve not to close completely, and leak. I applied full compressor air pressure to each cylinder and cranked the engine over, hoping to blow the junk out. My compression increased a bit, so I decided to put the plugs back in and give it a try. It tried to start now, but couldn't quite get going. The more I tried though, the more it tried. Sometimes it would pop out of the intake or exhaust valves. Finally I got it started, but it ran poorly. I left it running and belching and went into the house to tell Barb that I'd finally got it running, and when I came back out, it was running a little better. In fact it slowly kept on getting better and better until it was running great. I put it all back together and rode it to work the next day. It ran great. To a lessor degree, the bike did the same thing again every time I let it sit for a month or so, but usually only on one cylinder so I could get it started OK, and by the time it was out of the garage it was running fine. When I first bought the bike, I used leaded gas in it so I figured that it was pieces of lead deposits coming loose and fouling a valve. I brought the up to my dealer and he suggested running a dose of "Ring Free" through. I did and the bike never lost compression again. Now it's got about 140,000 miles on it and the heads have never been off.

 

Two more things.....did you have the throttle open when you measured the compression? If not, you problem could be as easy as needing to sync. the carbs.

 

Another way you can find leaking valves is to pull the heads and remove the camshafts. Prop the heads so that they're are level with the chambers looking up. Fill each cylinder with gasoline and see if the chambers stay full or if a valve leaks.

 

Frank

[VanRiver]

Thanks @Jamsie for the suggestion and V-max manual link! I really appreciate it!

 

I agree, it would be great to have all new internals, but like you said budget is the key here. I'm trying to keep this project on the cheap, and because AZZI will only be ridden maybe 1000km - 2000km per year (if I'm lucky) since she is located at our vacation home I'm doing this project more as a fun learning experience then for the purpose of building a killer machine. Plus I doubt that all my changes will help AZZI's resale value any since only you guys appreciate having the upgrades I'm doing compared to the average buyer in the market for an old touring bike. But to your very valid point I want those 1000km per year to be trouble free so I'm not always having to turn wrenches to enjoy a ride!

 

I'm only out of pocket around $500 so far, $250 for AZZI (best motorcycle deal of my life)...$100 for the parts bike and motor...$150 assorted parts and tools.....so I guess I have room for some additional costs! Did I mention I'm cheap too?

 

Dunno what your budget is for this project @VanRiver, but i would be tempted to replace all valves, valve guides and cam chain/tensioner/chain guides, just to be sure the stripdown wasnt a waste of time and has to be done again.

Also found an online vmax manual

https://archive.org/stream/printermanual-yamaha-vmax-vmx12-service-manual/yamahavmaxvmx12-service-manual#page/n147/mode/2up

[VanRiver]

Hi @Trader, thanks for the clarification on the double springs! Yes it would be great to compare notes! If there is anything I can help with please let me know (you can learn from my mistakes!). I agree with you about the "time constraint" part. I'm currently on vacation so I have had the ability to sneak out to the garage a lot more then usual, but that is coming to an end soon. I'm hoping to get the heads swapped this week, then AZZI will need to wait until Christmas vacation until I can do all the carb work and hopefully install the upgraded engine into the bike. I'm told "Patience is a virtue".... unfortunately I'm more of an "instant gratification" type of guy!

 

As for the video...You hit the nail on the head buddy! I have watched Damon Ferraiuolo's engine rebuild video several times now and have taken extensive notes. Great guy, he makes it look so easy!!! His videos are the reason for me even attempting this type of project. If I only had to go by Mother Yamaha's manual I don't think I would be going down this path on my own.

 

Keep in touch buddy! Feel free to PM any time. And I look forward to seeing your posts about your upgrade project here on the forum. Take lots of picture too....everyone likes pictures, my good friend @cowpuc taught me that!

 

Yes I was fortunate to get my V-max heads complete with valves and cams together.

I'm planning on doing the same thing on my 83...and right now I have my 88 apart doing valves on it.

They both had the 2 springs...inner and outer.

 

We should compare notes as we do it...although I'm a lot slower due to time restraints.

 

Did you get the vmax heads with valves and cams in? All I have found are individual components

You might consider getting the video on re-assembling the vmax motor....I learned a lot....things I never would know like Colour markings on valve springs

[VanRiver]

Hey @frankd glad to hear you got your 83 valve issue solved, and with only 140,000 she is barely broken in!. She has many more miles and trouble free years to go!

 

Yes, these bikes were meant to be ridden and they don't like just sitting around doing nothing in the garage. But that is the reality of any recreation type vehicle, they spend more time sitting, corroding, and wasting away compared to getting enjoyed (that is how it works at my house anyway).

 

Thanks for the heads up on the "Ring Free"! I'll have to take a look at that product...never used it before.

 

Great tip about the "Open Throttle" when doing the compression test. Yes, testing with a free breathing engine is key to get accurate compression numbers. When I did my test on "Maxine the donor engine" she was sitting on the engine stand with the carbs already removed and the intakes were unobstructed, so she was breathing as free as she could possibly breath.

 

Once I get the old Venture heads removed I'll try the gas leak test for curiosity sake. Thanks man for the great insight!

 

I've used the same method that 'Puc' mentioned, and it works great. On my 83, after a Chicago winter's snooze, my 83 lost compression in all 4 cylinders and wouldn't start. Well actually when I went to start it for the first time one spring, it almost started, and then died. I went to crank it again, and it spun real fast and you could hear that the compression was low. I made up a spark plug adapter and pressurized each cylinder and fond that all 4 had at least one valve leaking bad--some exhausts, some intakes. Now this bike had about 80,000 miles on it, but when I stored it in the fall, it ran great. I pulled one of the valve covers and measured the valve clearance---on some of the valves it was way more than expected. The only way that the clearance could increase that I thought of was to have some debris between the valve and the seat causing the valve not to close completely, and leak. I applied full compressor air pressure to each cylinder and cranked the engine over, hoping to blow the junk out. My compression increased a bit, so I decided to put the plugs back in and give it a try. It tried to start now, but couldn't quite get going. The more I tried though, the more it tried. Sometimes it would pop out of the intake or exhaust valves. Finally I got it started, but it ran poorly. I left it running and belching and went into the house to tell Barb that I'd finally got it running, and when I came back out, it was running a little better. In fact it slowly kept on getting better and better until it was running great. I put it all back together and rode it to work the next day. It ran great. To a lessor degree, the bike did the same thing again every time I let it sit for a month or so, but usually only on one cylinder so I could get it started OK, and by the time it was out of the garage it was running fine. When I first bought the bike, I used leaded gas in it so I figured that it was pieces of lead deposits coming loose and fouling a valve. I brought the up to my dealer and he suggested running a dose of "Ring Free" through. I did and the bike never lost compression again. Now it's got about 140,000 miles on it and the heads have never been off.

 

Two more things.....did you have the throttle open when you measured the compression? If not, you problem could be as easy as needing to sync. the carbs.

 

Another way you can find leaking valves is to pull the heads and remove the camshafts. Prop the heads so that they're are level with the chambers looking up. Fill each cylinder with gasoline and see if the chambers stay full or if a valve leaks.

 

Frank

[VanRiver]

Well, I started to prep the V-Max heads late last night. They sure are pretty! And have A LOT less ware on them compared to "Maxine the Donor engine's" original Cams.

 

I also started the removal process of the original head. I'm not that smart so I'm doing one head at a time so I don't get too confused or have too many little parts floating around on the work bench at one time.

 

Everything is going well EXCEPT I'm having a heck of a time trying to remove the plastic coolant tube in the old head!!! I need to remove it so the cam chain will be free when I lift the old head off..I'm trying not to break the old brittle plastic as I don't want any pieces falling into the crank case. That sucker will not budge and must be baked in there!!! Any suggestions on how to remove it?

 

Here are some pics of that pesky coolant tube....it is so brittle it breaks like my mothers bone china!

 

[cowpuc]

Looking great Riv!!!:clap2::dancefool:

 

As far as the valve spring thoughts I was thinking about - I was just thinking that if the V-Max has heavier spring pressure to keep the valves from floating or to assist in valve closure due to a different cam profile the stiffer springs would put additional pressure on the cam chain. This additional pressure may not be the best thing on a chain that is already showing signs of wear.. The reason I thought it was probably a mute subject is that checking the cam chain would be a good idea anyway.. I know,, sometimes I :Im not listening toto much,, but you have been around me enough now to already know that ..

On to that piece that is blocking the cam chain from coming free.. Looking at the pics,,, is there any chance that it is held in by a snap ring or,,, is that small hole I see above the boss that the piece channels into by any chance a set screw hole? Take a sharp pic (no ya lop eared varmint - not talking about a this time,, talking about a pic like a dental pic ) and scrape around in that hole and see what ya find.. Also may take the same pic and scrape around the edges of the piece and clean it up as good as possible. Maybe those channel pieces are o-ringed in and your fighting against o-rings.. Will take a peek in my manual and see if it mentions them.. Also,, are you sure that is plastic and not steel? If its steel - maybe some heat will unsettle it..

Another thought - take a look at your V-Max heads and see if your gonna have to reuse them (the pieces) on install.. If not,, your gonna hate me for saying this probably,,, I wouldnt let em stand in my way,,, if it became obvious that they are siezed in - I would just grab my 16 inch channel locks and make em do what I want them to do

[cowpuc]

Heyyyy,, wait a second here,,, whats that big allen head plug for right above the piece we are talking about? Maybe pull that plug or what ever it is and see if that solves the removal problem..

[cowpuc]

Ahhh ha! Book diagram shows that piece held in check by a "Stopping Pin" and just says to "remove the pin and remove the "water jacket joint".. If you have already removed a roll pin from the hole I was thinking may have a set screw in it Riv - I am thinking you are fighting O-rings as a parts picture of that plastic joint does show it is o-ringed..

[cowpuc]

Might help..

[Trader]

When I pulled mine out I chewed it up a little with players.

but that's all you need...a pair of wide flat plyers.

The video shows a pair he welded small plates onto to widen and flatten the grip.

It is a friction fit once the pin is out.

again...in the video he suggests getting new ones...but I don't see the value.

New o-rings sure...but the whole thing?

[KIC]

Just remember, if you break something or need a part I have 2 84 parts bikes down here with motors. We'll just tie one to the back of David's 89 and have him haul one up to you...

[videoarizona]

Just remember, if you break something or need a part I have 2 84 parts bikes down here with motors. We'll just tie one to the back of David's 89 and have him haul one up to you...

 

[cowpuc]

 

:rotfl: I think Vaz is skeerd someone would take a of an 84 MK1 strapped on the back of his 89 MK2 and post it on here with a caption that said ""well look at that Wilma,, Puc always said those MK1's were faster and that MK1 is actually trying to push that

MK2 out of it's way:bikersmilie::7_6_2[1]:"" :dancefool:

[VanRiver]

Well, today was a family day so I had to sneak away late tonight to turns some wrenches. So here is an update.

 

Yup @cowpuc, those gosh darn plastic connector tubes that I was complaining about before are exactly like you said....only held in with a "Spring pin" and have 3 o-rings just like Mother Yamaha's book shows. Well, after 30 years of RPM's and heat those o-rings must have turned to glue and the plastic is so brittle that I had no other option then to use the good ol channel locks and break them out. Got some new ones with o-rings on order from Partzilla.

 

Thanks @KIC for the offer on the parts! I'll keep that in mind if I break any further parts. Thanks again buddy for those Valve cover bolts....hope you have a use for that Venturerider.org Dome decal I sent your way via David (small token of my appreciation). I really think David could balance a full motor on the back of his 89...with a few bungee cords for safety of course!

 

So back to my update.....I got the old heads off, Yippie!!! but I found some disappointing surprises under there. Looks like this bike had been sitting in storage for a very long time. And there appears to be some corrosion not only in the valves but also in the #3 and #4 cylinders...both just happen to be the high cylinders when the bike is on the side kick stand. There is a "rough area" and can feel a slight ridge midway up the stroke on cylinder #3 and "rough" areas on the #4 cylinder. Most likely these rough areas are where the pistons sat dry for may years while the bike was in storage. Also #4 piston had almost no carbon build up like the others which makes me think it was getting "steam cleaned" due to a head gasket leak letting water in during combustion.

 

So I'm a little disheartened tonight as I was hoping to just slap the heads on and run, but now it looks like I need to split the case and hone the cylinders after all.... and probably do new rings too just to be on the safe side. What do you guys think? Or will the cylinders polish themselves?

 

Here are a few pics, I currently have some seafoam in the cylinders loosening the carbon deposits to get them as clean as possible....plus it is a good leak test too to validate compression and ring fit.

 

Here is a shot with the heads off and Cylinders 1 and 3 soaking in seafoam:

 

 

Here is an inside shot of Cylinder #4 , can you see the "Rough" or "unpolished" spots in the cylinder?

 

 

Here is Cylinder #3 , can you see the line where most likely the piston sat for many years and corrosion started?:

 

 

So what do you guys think? Can I leave the cylinders as is and put the new heads on and check compression? Shall I split the case and Hone the cylinders? Can I remove the pistons and rods and use a honing tool myself without splitting the case? Do you think I need to replace the rings as well? Or should I dig a big hole in the back yard and bury "Maxine the Donor Engine" and all the V-max parts and forget this ever happened?

 

Your input is much appreciated as always!

Edited July 31, 2016 by VanRiver

[Guest Jamsie]

Might as well split the cases now you have the engine on the bench and hone the cylinders.

as you will have to strip off a few parts , give those the once over as well, ie measure clutch stack height, is the water pump impeller plastic or metal, etc.

like you said , this is a do it once and do it right job

[bongobobny]

Yup, what Jamsie said!! You've gone this far, may as well break the glaze on the cylinder walls and definitely replace the rings to seat properly with the honed walls. When you end up with an excellent running engine you'll be glad you did!!