Intermittent starting issue

[KillDrag65]

Hi,

I have a 02 Midnight Venture. It has about 36k on it. It has always started and run just fine. Bike will randomly not restart during a trip, could be long or short trip, but started out doing maybe once during the day and now getting worse. I simply turn the key off and back on again it restarts! It fires up almost instantly,not backfiring or sluggishness. It has stalled twice during the beginning of a ride and acts as if the key was turned off, not like was starving for fuel, turn key off sometimes multiple times and restarts. Starter turns strong. I could hear fuel pump engage. Pulled ignition switch, disassembled, and checked all contact points and wiring for heat damage, everything looked fine

Please advise

[Flyinfool]

Sounds like the ignition switch might be going out. This is a well known weak point. There is a member that makes a kit to add a relay that will take the electrical load off of the weak switch.

[bongobobny]

Yup!! Sounds like the dreaded ignition switch failure syndrome to me too!! Do a search, somewhere on this site EUSA1 did a nice write up on how to disassemble the switch and clean the contacts before it is too far gone to save...

[djh3]

Hi,

I have a 02 Midnight Venture. It has about 36k on it. It has always started and run just fine. Bike will randomly not restart during a trip, could be long or short trip, but started out doing maybe once during the day and now getting worse. I simply turn the key off and back on again it restarts! It fires up almost instantly,not backfiring or sluggishness. It has stalled twice during the beginning of a ride and acts as if the key was turned off, not like was starving for fuel, turn key off sometimes multiple times and restarts. Starter turns strong. I could hear fuel pump engage. Pulled ignition switch, disassembled, and checked all contact points and wiring for heat damage, everything looked fine

Please advise

 

 

So you say you have taken the switch apart. Did you clean the contacts up with some sand paper or cloth? Kind of hard to tell you how to OHM it out. I make the by-pass relays. I can also make a keyless set up for you to the OEM key, but I dont realy recomend it, because if its keyless for you it is for a thief also. But there are a couple work arounds. Send me a PM if you need more info.

[cowpuc]

There has to be a solenoid in there somewhere - wonder if you might have a loose wire on that puppy or a solenoid coil going south.. Also, I thought I read somewhere that there is already a relay between the starter solenoid and the contacts on the starter button on the 2nd Gens @Flyinfool - probably my feeble brain playing tricks on me,,,,,,, if there is one - I would check/clean the wire terminals on that thing too and maybe even take it out and shake it a little and test it a couple times if its mechanical electrical - make sure you aint got a spring loose or something inside of it..

No idea if the 2nd Gens have a side stand switch on em - if they do, be a good idea to check take a close look at that - had some issues with my 1st Gens that were similar and found a bad side stand switch.. Another Murphy's law fav of mine has been the clutch lever switch for similar probs..

[KillDrag65]

I cleaned the contact points on the switch with some sand paper and I am reinstalling today.

Is their a relay they controls all of the ignition coils and if so where is it?

Does the starter relay control spark ?

How about a wiring diagram?

I did a visible check of the wires and didn't find anything melted or loose. Will check kickstand switch and kill switch as well today.

[KillDrag65]

I read the article on dissassembly and cleaning of the switch. switch contacts looked really good. Cleaned lightly with some 400 grit sandpaper. Is there anything else that would not allow the motor to start but is controlled by turning the key of and on. A weak relay of some sort?

[bongobobny]

I cleaned the contact points on the switch with some sand paper and I am reinstalling today.

Is their a relay they controls all of the ignition coils and if so where is it Not really any relay for the igniter box other than the starter circuit control relay which allows/does not allow spark depending on kickstand, neutral, etc. It is located under the battery box where the fuel pump and filter are.

Does the starter relay control spark ?If you are referring to the starter SOLENOID, located under the battery box, if it is getting defective and has internal resistance, it will drag the battery voltage below 10 volts while the starter is turning, which will kill the logic level to the ignitor box causing no spark whatsoever.

How about a wiring diagram? You can find it in the 2nd gen tech library, here's a link http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?42357-2nd-Gen-Wiring-Schematics-99-09-RSV

 

I did a visible check of the wires and didn't find anything melted or loose. Will check kickstand switch and kill switch as well today.

Really, none of the above things would cause you the problems you stated in post 1, they would display different symptoms. Yours seem quite typical for the ignition switch, a known weak point on the 2nd Gen's. Another very remote problem, other than possibly a dirty battery connection, would be the contacts on the kill switch but that's kind of reaching out there...

[KillDrag65]

When i disassembled the switch there was no visible sign of damage or shorting out of wires.The wiper contacts all looked good and no melted wires. Could this still be an issue?

Edited July 1, 2016 by KillDrag65

[bongobobny]

Ummmm, how shiny were they?? They could have had a thin layer of oxidation on them...

 

Bottom line, only time will tell if it fixed your problem or not!

[KillDrag65]

Not so shiny. They were after I cleaned them!. I'll be riding this weekend so I will update this post. Thanks any input is always appreciated

Edited July 1, 2016 by KillDrag65

[djh3]

So does engine roll over? Or you get nothing when you thumb the button? If it is the latter, could be your starter button contacts.

On the starter relay question. Yes there is a relay for the starter system I believe. Typically they dont go "intermittent" bad. I have not heard of a starter relay going bad. Somewhere on the forum there is a link to a shop manual. It will have the wire diagram.

[DarrinGT]

So does engine roll over? Or you get nothing when you thumb the button? If it is the latter, could be your starter button contacts.

On the starter relay question. Yes there is a relay for the starter system I believe. Typically they dont go "intermittent" bad. I have not heard of a starter relay going bad. Somewhere on the forum there is a link to a shop manual. It will have the wire diagram.

 

Just getting in here but this KillDrag65 Character happens to be a good friend of mine, Great guy, thanks for helping him out guys!

 

DJ3h, So the 2 Relay bypass kits that I got from you today, One was for My bike the other was for his, He is installing it tonight, were riding tomorrow night.

 

Oh, and just to stirr up some crap, Someone ask him what fuel mileage he gets with his Venture,..

 

Pics of our bikes on a fall trip last year,..

 

[djh3]

Funny looking Royal Star on the far left there Darrin.

[DarrinGT]

Yup, Thats our Buddy Todd, They got rid of thier Road Star for the Victory a while back and they love it. They are headed out for a 2 week trip to Utah, Colorado, etc next Friday with another couple on an Indian Roadmaster. Were a pretty diverse group Lol..

[KillDrag65]

I got 50 to 52 mpg on a UP trip with Darrin. 2 riders and full gear. I was running about the same as Todd's Royal star, right down to the tenth of a gallon. Apparently that is not supposed to happen?

[DarrinGT]

^ yea,.you Suck,..

[KillDrag65]

You probably would not have believed it if you were not there. I am curious how it will do on this years trip.

[bongobobny]

Quick question, when it "died" on you was EVERYTHING dead, i.e. no dash, no light, etc?? With the ignition switch failure you loose everything except the radio...

 

Also, let me restate my answer on the "Starter Circuit Cut Off Relay" part of the Starting circuit cut off relay assembly which also contains the fuel pump relay. Perhaps I did not fully understand your question,, my initial answer was pertaining to your stated problem in post 1 where you stated the bike just died like you turned the key off, and then with turning the key on and off a few times things went back to normal. With that symptom it is highly unlikely the relay is at fault as all it does is supply ground via the start switch to the starter solenoid primary coil. The actual solenoid secondary contacts are what supply the starter motor with electricity, and in rare instances if the secondary has enough internal resistance it can drag battery voltage down to a level where you will get no spark, however the starter turns over more slowly as well. Once again has NOTHING to do with your stated problem!

So, to continue, yes the starting circuit cut off relay ALSO will disable the ignition, BUT only when you try to start the bike in gear with the clutch out, with the kickstand down in any gear but neutral, etc AND it results in totally disabling the starter motor as well, as the ground path for the starter solenoid is disconnected from the starter switch via the open relay contacts. The relay primary is connected to all the safety switches that determine whether or not the bike is NOT in gear with the clutch out and the sidestand down. The relay secondary is in no way connected to the ignitor box in any way shape, or form, the relay secondary contacts are only connect the start switch to the starter solenoid primary coil.

 

Anyway, keep us informed on whether or not the problem is fixed, AND if it reoccurs, before you switch the key on and off is EVERYTHING except the radio dead??

[KillDrag65]

good question.......since it has been a week alot of the fine details have been lost in my brain,lol. I will pay better attention if it happens this weekend and report back

[KillDrag65]

UPDATE........I have put about 200 miles on since my last post. Short rides so as to reduce the cost of a tow truck bill, just in case. Multiple stopping and starting the longest ride being 100 miles in a day. No starting issues. The only thing i have done is clean the contacts with 400 grit sandpaper. Somewhere in those miles I installed a ignition bypass relay to avoid the "dreaded" ignition failure. I will increase the distance and am cautiously optimistic.