Battery or charging system?

[cowpuc]

Hey thanks for thinking of me Puc. Charged the battery back up and checked before starting and after starting and while reving it. Volts actually go down while running so it aint charging at all. Hope you are rite about reg/rec as it will be the cheaper fix. You have me thinking tho, I am storing a Millenium for a certain Viking we know, mite have to start swiping parts off of it to keep the trike runnin:grandpa:

 

Craig

 

YOU got an Icelandic parts bike sitting there and YOU are gonna waste the 4th of July riding cause your scoot is down

 

:big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon:

 

Arent the R/R's on the 2nd Gens mounted up front under the rads? Pretty easy to get at? Might be worth removing a couple bolts, popping the terminals off and plugging the Vikings reg in just to see what ya get... I may be wrong but I dont think a Stator can over produce and fry a reg (like can happen to a TCI) so you really arent in danger of hurting anything if it is the Stator (PLEASE correct me if I am wrong here you guys).. Maybe back feeding from the battery if the stator is gone to ground? Dont seem like that would be possible cause we are talking diodes only allowing current flow one way....

Actually you guys,,, didnt I read somewhere that the stator wires (all 3 of them) terminate at the R/R.. If so, a simple ohm check across the legs of the 3 phase wires should show you if your stator is ok .. Seems like 3.5k ohms or there abouts across the legs (or, even more important is that they all read close to the same across each other) and each leg tests open to ground were good numbers on the 1st Gens.. 2nd Gens cant be that much different - they still gotta have a 3 phase stator in em dont they? Quick check your stator, if its good - beg/borrow or that Vikings - go riding - replace your reg when Bob sends it over - replace the Vikings and buy that Norseman a steak dinner when he comes State side - dont tell him why your buying him a dinner, just tell him ya love him and he has a really nice bike:missingtooth:

[XV1100SE]

12.6v on the old battery now. Did a load test and it dropped to 10.4v. Still tests as "good". Had rain today and busy around the house so haven't had a chance to ride.

[cowpuc]

12.6v on the old battery now. Did a load test and it dropped to 10.4v. Still tests as "good". Had rain today and busy around the house so haven't had a chance to ride.

 

I had a bad battery one time that I honestly believe it developed an open between the cell connectors that only went open when heated up a little under a load.. Crazy thing would read fine and perform well under a short load test.. Chased that monkey for a week before I finally came to the conclusion I did and I only found it by accident.. I must of hooked my meter up to that stupid thing a hundred times cause it was doing similar stuff to what you are talking XV.. 12.5 fully charged - hit the starter button - 10.5 on the load - release the starter - 12.5.. Looked great.. I finally discovered that leaving the load on it for a long period of time (20 or 30 seconds actually ) to really stress the battery and all of a sudden I lost a cell!!

[cecdoo]

Hey Craig, I have a spare 2nd gen R/R, and Earl (Skydoc_17) is coming up for my party Monday. Want me to send him home with it?? Earl lives a lot closer to you than me...

 

Hey Bob, Thank you for the offer, it is really appreciated. Going to have everything checked out next week and replace anything bad with new stuff. I have plenty of stuff to do around the house so the weekend wont be wasted.

Thanks again, Craig

[Condor]

I had a bad battery one time that I honestly believe it developed an open between the cell connectors that only went open when heated up a little under a load.. Crazy thing would read fine and perform well under a short load test.. Chased that monkey for a week before I finally came to the conclusion I did and I only found it by accident.. I must of hooked my meter up to that stupid thing a hundred times cause it was doing similar stuff to what you are talking XV.. 12.5 fully charged - hit the starter button - 10.5 on the load - release the starter - 12.5.. Looked great.. I finally discovered that leaving the load on it for a long period of time (20 or 30 seconds actually ) to really stress the battery and all of a sudden I lost a cell!!

Had the same problem once Puc. Battery checked out fine but kept going dead over night. Found it had a internal cell short that only appeared under heavy load...

[dogman]

Don, sounds like your new battery has solved the problem. The end of last season and beginning of this season I went thru 3 new batteries covered under warranty as I had an intermittent problem with my voltage regulator so it was hard to diagnose, but Saddlebum came to my rescue and figured it all out.

Good luck to both of you Don and Cecdoo

[XV1100SE]

Update on my issue....

On the first day of the Ontario rally the bike experienced the same issues. Would run fine but when I shut down and tried to start the bike there wasn't enough power in the battery to start it. After a number of push starts and discussions with other members at the rally, the new Deka battery was suspected. Voltage was read and was low. Boosted the bike and it kept running when the battery was disconnected. General thought was that the Deka had the same issue as the Interstate...so

I replaced the Deka battery with another AGM. For two days the bike ran fine but as we were about to leave for home, the bike wouldn't start.

 

The bike started first thing Sunday morning and we rode for about 20 minutes to go for breakfast on the final day of the rally. Bike started fine an hour later and we rode back to the rally site. Twenty minutes later, went to start the bike and it would turn over a couple times then stop....no power.

 

I normally ride with high beam on and passing lights.

 

We boosted the bike from a car and it fired right up. From that point on I rode with only the high beam on and the passing lights off. Rode for some distance and shut the bike off to get fuel. Went to start the bike...and it started fine. For the rest of the trip home, the bike would start with no problems.

 

MarCarl is thinking that when the bike is "hot" there isn't enough power to charge the battery and the battery is in a discharge state. This afternoon I ran some tests.

 

I ran the bike until it was hot (on side stand just idling) and then took measurements with passing lights and high beam off : :

@idle (1000rpm), voltage measured at the battery posts was counting down .01 every few seconds. At start of the test it read 12.65v and slowly decreased as low as 12.45v

@2500rpm output would range between 12.88 and 13.26v. The output voltage reading would not stabilize and bounced up and down in that range

 

Turned bike off and measured voltage - 12.68v and holding. With key turned on but not started voltage dropped by .01 every few seconds. I turned the key off and then took measurements with the bike turned off :

@10 minutes 12.56v

@ 1 hour measured 12.51v

 

By this point the bike had cooled off so I started the bike and got the following readings :

Idle- 12.93

1500rpm - 13.9v

2000rpm - 13.91v

2500rpm - 13.91v

 

So...my question after what I feel confirms what Carl suggested...when the bike is hot voltage from the bike to the battery drops to a point where the battery is discharging. Based on the readings, what would the issue be? Stator or rectifier ? And where should I order it from ?

[Marcarl]

Take off the covers that you need to, to get at the 3 wires coming from the stator. Make sure the seat is loose, because you need to do a test as soon as you come home. Go for a 10 mile ride so that everything is hot. Running at idle does not produce that kind of heating. As soon as you get back home, do the stator test. Undo the 3 wire plug, (all 3 wires are yellow), check continuity between all 3 and to ground. It should show open on each test.

1 to ground

2 to ground

3 to ground

 

1 to 2

1 to 3

2 to 3

 

There should be no continuity, if there is your stator is faulty. It will need to be hot!!!

[bongobobny]

OK Don, you need to do some further "HOT" testing to help determine what is bad. This will require you to heat the bike up just like you did before and then unplug the connector to the R/R to take some Stator readings dynamically. For safety reasons temporarily turn off the bike before unplugging. The connector is sort of divided into two sections, the input, 3 wires from the stator, and 2 wires output to the battery. With the unit plugged, identify the 3 same color wires coming from the stator, and in your mind label them A, B, and C. You want to read all 3 sets of combinations of A B and C, A to B, A to C, and B to C, for AC Voltage at idle, 2000 rpm, 3000 rpm, etc. At idle all 3 readings will be lower readings AC, like maybe around 20 volts AC more or less, and all approximately equal. At 2000 rpm the voltages will be higher and still almost equal, and at 3000 rpm even higher and equal. If not your stator has probably become thermally intermittent, either a winding opening up or shorting out. If they are good, shut the bike off, reconnect the connector, and repeat your battery voltage readings to see if you still have the same erroneous readings you had before when hot. If so then I suspect your R/R is thermally defective. I wish you would have kept my spare, I don't need it and you always could have returned it at a later date...

 

Anyway, depending on the accuracy of your meter the actual value of AC voltage may vary, the important part is that they are all approximately equal to each other and all go up the same with higher rpm's. The R/R's voltage readings should go up from idle to a point where it reaches it's regulation point then stay pretty much the same even though the rpm's increase, kind of like what you described reading after the bike was cooled off. Because you are seeing an unstable reading across the battery when hot it suggests something is breaking down when hot so you will have to isolate whether it is the Stator or R/R that is defective...

[cowpuc]

If it were my bike and knowing as little as I do about the electrical systems therein this is what I would do:

Even if the Stator passed "ohm checks" across the leads and to ground and even if I were getting decent voltage output at the battery I would still highly suspect the stator windings to be at fault because there are coils of wire separated by thin lamination of a shalack like substance in there that I have seen with my own two eyes. I would theorize that there may be some pieces of loose lamination in those coils somewhere and when those wires heat up things start happening and the passing lights being on only increase the amount of heat..

At a minimum I would start the bike up cold, warm it up to operating temp and do a volt check across the stator wires with the Voltage regulator (or rectifier or what ever its called) still plugged in.. Should be possible by poking the lead from the ohm meter under the edge of the terminal so you dont have to unplug it. I would then repeat taking readings as I ran the scoot up to high temps and see what kind of changes occurred..

PS - I gotta hunch that if you have a lower then 9 or 10 volts AC on the intitial test you will have discovered a bad stator winding right from the beginning..

 

Now lets see what the guru's have to say about my madness

[cecdoo]

Dont mean to hijack Don, but since we were having similar problems, mine ended up being the stator. Had it replaced and it seems to have taken care of the problem. 2007 with 40K miles

 

Craig

[XV1100SE]

When replacing the stator I see there is a gasket. IF it is the stator....do I need to replace or reuse the stator cover gasket?

 

I checked Ricks Motorsport and they show that for the 2009 Venture it is part number 21-412H. $159 USD plus$60 shipping = $220. With the exchange rate I'd be looking at almost $300 CDN.

 

I can get it from "Canada's Motorcycle" for $202 CDN but when I go thru their fitment...it says it doesn't fit the Venture...same part number - https://www.canadasmotorcycle.ca/ricks-motorsport-electrics-stator-hot-shot-21-412h.html . I can pay $2 and have it in 1-3 days.

[bongobobny]

Well, if you're lucky and don't tear the gasket you probably could get away with reusing it, but, IMHO, once a gasket is compressed they won't, in theory, properly reseal. I've always thought better safe than sorry...

 

Thermal problems are a huge butt pain to troubleshoot! A part of me agrees with Craig, it may very well turn out to be the stator. As Puc pointed out the stator windings are wires insulated with shellac, and with heating up both from engine temperature and electricity flowing through it the snellac will melt, some windings will short out, and you get bad stator output. Let it cool, the shellac resolidifies, and things go back to normal.

 

I forgot to mention another common trouble source last night, there is a connector in the area under the battery box that the stator connects into the wiring harness that can, and does become corroded and in some instances melts, but that is usually a permanent, not an intermittent failure. You have to do some minor disassembly to get to the connector which involves removing the fake battery covers (both sides and the front pieces), removing the overfill tank, and loosening the fuel pump mounting bracket to get everything out of your way to get to the connector. By the way this is an excellent time to change out your fuel filter as Preventative Maintenance with things out of the way...

 

I took the time to click your link and clicked the vehicle specific link and plugged in the info, but being lazy selected the 2003 year (they're all the same) where the cursor just happened to be, and viola, it says it fits!! Ricks is a good replacement supplier so I would go with that!!

[Flyinfool]

Take off the covers that you need to, to get at the 3 wires coming from the stator. Make sure the seat is loose, because you need to do a test as soon as you come home. Go for a 10 mile ride so that everything is hot. Running at idle does not produce that kind of heating. As soon as you get back home, do the stator test. Undo the 3 wire plug, (all 3 wires are yellow), check continuity between all 3 and to ground. It should show open on each test.

1 to ground

2 to ground

3 to ground

 

1 to 2

1 to 3

2 to 3

 

There should be no continuity, if there is your stator is faulty. It will need to be hot!!!

 

I know what Marcarl meant but that aint what came out.

 

1 to ground

2 to ground

3 to ground

There should be no continuity for this test.

 

1 to 2

1 to 3

2 to 3

All should show about 3 ohms, The small value is hard to read for most ohmmeters so the vale is not as important as that all 3 are real close to the same.

 

 

As Bob said if you are lucky and the gasket comes out with no damage then you can try to reuse it. Worst case is a small oil leak. BUT you MUST have a gasket in there, it is needed to get proper spacing for the starter gears, if you use RTV to make a gasket the starter gears will bind.

 

This is the best reason to have a digital voltmeter permanently installed on the bike. It lets you monitor in real time exactly what the status of your charging system is. It will let you know if running the Hi beam and passing lights around town is draining the battery. It will also show you have a problem the moment it starts, before you get to the point of the bike not starting or even leaving you stranded on the side of the road with a completely dead bike.

[saddlebum]

Don I bought my Ricks Stator through Amazon.ca and the supplier was LION PARTS I payed $128.44 plus $29.40 shipping for a total of $157.84 for it and though the estimated delivery time was 6 weeks it was on my doorstep in under 6 days also for all the gasket is worth I would replace it and avoid any "Iwish I hada Syndroms"

 

try this link through amazon.ca.

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/search/ref=sr_gnr_fkmr0?rh=i:aps,k:21-412H&keywords=21-412H&ie=UTF8&qid=1469545699&tag=vglnk-ca-c1030-20

 

OR

http://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/results

Also if memory serves my correct MKII 1st gen and 2nd gen use the same stator just the connector is different. I may have one on my parts bike that you could try if that is the case.

Edited July 26, 2016 by saddlebum

[XV1100SE]

I didn't realize there was oil in that area until I spoke with Wayne (Wizard765) so I didn't think it was a "critical" gasket. I'll definitely replace the gasket. I'd rather do something once than have to repeat it.

 

I based the right part on what Ricky's website said was the correct model so I ordered it already from Canada's Motorcycle even though the 2009 wasn't listed. I didn't try earlier years to see if they would show compatibility - and I do know that from 1999 to 2013 there were only slight changes.

 

I do change my fuel filter regularily and stay on top of fluids.

 

I won't get the stator until end of next week (3-4 days for them to get it from their supplier, 1-3 days for delivery) and I WILL do all the testing suggested above as well as in the thread on "battery not charging".

 

Really appreciate all the ideas and the phone call from Ben (Saddlebum) - great support group !

 

My thinking on ordering the stator before doing the tests is that eventually I'm going to have to replace it anyway (from the number of times they "wear out"), and seems that from the test results so far and previous threads on "battery not charging" it is typically the stator.