Battery or charging system?

[XV1100SE]

For those that know more than me.....

 

I've had two occurrences recently....

 

Had been riding the bike for about an hour and a half and shut the bike down at the border and it wouldn't start. Paddled it a few feet, popped the clutch and it started. Rode 10 minutes to a coffee shop and (of course) had a coffee. Went to start the bike and no problem, fired right up.

 

Today, I rode 1/2 hr to work in the morning and 9 hours later the bike started normally. 1/2 hr ride home in 30C/90F roughly I stopped at the gas station about two blocks from home. After filling up, the bike started with no problem. When I got home, trying to maneuver it between the car and the garage door frame I stalled it. Push the starter, and not enough energy to turn it over.

 

Put a meter on the battery tender leads and voltage measured 11.2v. Let it sit a while and tried starting it and it still wouldn't turn over. Was at the point where you could hear "clicking" from the starter solenoid.

 

Went out to do some shopping and after about 5 hours after the initial problem, tried firing it up....no go. Put my battery tender on it and let it sit for about 1/2 hour. Measured voltage 11.4V and with the battery tender connected hit the starter button. Fired right up so I disconnected the battery tender with the bike running.

 

At 2,000 rpm I'm reading 13.4v across the battery tender leads. 2,500 rpm and it reads 13.5v. 3,000 rpm and I'm reading 13.7v.. 4,000 rpm and I'm at 13.8v.

 

After running the bike at various rpm for about 5 minutes, I shut it down and connected the voltmeter to the battery tender leads. Started at 12.2v...then a few seconds later read 12.1v, then 12v, then 11.9v....11.8v.

 

I'm pretty sure I don't have a drain on the battery. I have installed two fuse blocks with relays that only enable the non-oem circuits when the bike is running. I've tried hitting the horns and turning on the passign lights with the bike off and nothing turns on. Other than tie-ins for turn signals and brakes I don't have anything additional that indicates any power going to them (eg usb charger in trunk is on same fuse block as horns and it lights when it gets power but isn't "hot" with the bike off).

 

Previous owner bought the bike in May 2010 and I picked it up a couple months later. I replaced the OEM battery in the Fall of 2012 with a Deka ETX20L AGM battery and in the Fall of 2015 installed an Interstate AGM battery after having starting issues.

 

I'm thinking it is another battery gone bad. I do leave the battery in the bike over the winter and put a battery tender on it occasionally. When the temps are above 6C/42F I'll start the bike over the winter. Garage is unheated so temps do get down to -20C/0F.

 

So...opinions....should I purchase a new battery or do you think it is a charging issue?

 

And it isn't bad gas btw. The bike tries to start and drains enough power that the bike stops trying and I get a solenoid clicking. And after sitting on the charger for 1/2 hour, the bike ran fine.

[Flyinfool]

Start here to check out systems

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?81297-Testing-for-a-Battery-not-Charging

 

Some other issues.

 

A tender is not a charger and will not do a good job of charging a battery.

Most tenders are not made for the needs of an AGM battery.

Get a charger that is made for AGM to properly charge the battery.

[djh3]

Start with simple stuff. Check the grounds and hot leads. At both the battery and the ground on the motor. The hot leads at solenoid.

[bongobobny]

OK Don, with AGM batteries, tenders are pretty much a no no, they tend to kill them!! With an AGM you are better off just pulling the battery for the winter and storing them on the shelf! Trust me, found out the hard way about float chargers and AGM batteries!!

 

From your symptoms it does sound like a bad battery, especially an AGM. I would pull the battery, charge it fully using a low amp charge on a battery charger that works properly for an AGM battery and then go to your local auto parts store that will load test your battery for free to see if it is good or not. Then do a search on articles on this site for testing your electrical system, stator and R/R. Short version, unplug the connection on the R/R, and with the bike running, you should see AC voltages on all 3 combinations of the stator leads of around 20 or so VAC at idle and more like 890 volts or more at higher RPM's, and they should be all close to each other. Replug the R/R connector, and at idle you should see 112.something at idle and more like 13 volts + at higher RPM's. As RPM's increase, you will reach a point where the voltage does NOT increase any more with even higher RPM's...

 

The first step is to remove the battery, get it PROPERLY fully charged, then getting it load tested!

[bongobobny]

PS you may be having issues with your ignition switch, but the part about the battery voltage dropping somewhat rapidly is pointing to the battery...

[Du-Rron]

After running the bike at various rpm for about 5 minutes, I shut it down and connected the voltmeter to the battery tender leads. Started at 12.2v...then a few seconds later read 12.1v, then 12v, then 11.9v....11.8v.

 

I'm pretty sure I don't have a drain on the battery.

 

Try this. Pop the seat and disconnect the negative battery cable and isolate it. Properly charge the battery using a charger made for an AGM battery like the folks said above. When done charging, check the voltage. Come back an hour later and check the voltage again. Again, after another hour check the voltage again. If you see big drops like before, now that the negative cable is isolated, it really is the battery.

This battery, as well as the two previous ones were probably killed by the "tender". Get a real AGM charger like folks said above.

This one has been a favorite of mine now for a while and is available at WallyWorld.

http://www.batterychargers.com/spas3/

 

http://www.batterychargers.com/content/pdf/0099001561-R0.pdf

Edited June 28, 2016 by Du-Rron

[cowpuc]

Another thing you could check just for kicks is whether or not you have something drawing on the battery with the key off.. Take one of those cheapy little test lights - disconnect the positive lead (it may work with the negative too but I am electrically challenged and sure about that one), put the test light inline between the cable and the battery post with the key off - if the little light lights up ya gotta draw.. An ohm meter can be used to - set it on low dc voltage and test it.. If you happen to discover you have something draining the battery, a good place to discover where the short or draw is is to pull the fuses one at a time until you loose the short - good place to start..

[XV1100SE]

The Battery Tender I use is the "Battery Tender Plus" - http://www.batterytender.com/Motorcycle/Battery-TenderR-Plus.html

I made sure before I bought it a couple years ago that it was for AGM batteries - "Perfect for all lead-acid, flooded or sealed maintenance free batteries (AGM and gel cell)."

 

I had checked the ground (by OEM horn) and checked my connections at the battery after the border incident.

 

My first thought was charging system and I am getting the voltages mentioned with the bike running so I think I ruled that out.

 

I'm thinking it isn't the ignition switch issue as my passing lights are wired with a relay - I installed the passing lights originally and did it as recommended.

 

I thought of the cable that runs under the gas tank and haven't popped the tank off yet but by putting the Tender Plus on the battery for 30 to 45 minutes without disturbing the wires I would think if there was a bad cable it would remain bad and not feed power to start the bike after charging the battery for such a short time.

 

The voltage drop after running the battery caught my attention. Think from that it is either a power draw or bad battery. Before I go to work this morning or when I get home from work I'll disconnect the positive feed and put the meter between the positive post and the positive wires and see if it registers current.

 

Thanks for the input guys !

[Atoolnut]

thinking its a bad or going bad battery..buddy with 2012 rsv with a 2014 yuasa battery rode for two trips over 300km next day rode to ride for dad in orillia from bracebridge ..stopped...started rode for 15 mins..stopped ,..no go..i thought the same bad stator but was battery dead and stator was good...old saying ..replace battery every 2 years is cheap insurance....keep battery inside house in winter..just my 2 cents

[frankd]

cowpuc,

 

Yes, the test for current draw that you suggested will work in the negative battery lead also. In fact, that's a safer place to do the test.

 

FrankD

[bongobobny]

There WILL be a few milliamps draw coming mostly from the radio memory...

[Flyinfool]

@cowpuc

You do not do the battery drain test with an ohmmeter, that will likely let the magic blue smoke out of your meter if there is a draw. You use an Amp meter on the lowest setting to measure current draw.

 

And yes either lead will work. But be sure to test each lead that is connected to the battery terminal.

[BigLenny]

My bike was doing the same thing last year, and eventually left me stranded out in the country. Trailered it home thinking I had a bad coil, battery, ingnition or something. Somebody on here told me to clean the battery posts and cables. I looked at mine and they were clean as a whsitle and didn't need cleaning. I did it anyway, and the bike fired up and ran perfect and has been running perfect ever since. Fixed it. I was ready to dive into some complicated analysis of what was wrong with it.

[XV1100SE]

..... Somebody on here told me to clean the battery posts and cables. I looked at mine and they were clean as a whistle and didn't need cleaning. I did it anyway, and the bike fired up and ran perfect and has been running perfect ever since. Fixed it. I was ready to dive into some complicated analysis of what was wrong with it.

 

I put this battery on last Fall and I have had the terminals disconnected a few times over the Winter. Can't hurt to try.

[midnightventure]

I have been keeping 2 AGM batteries on Battery Tenders for the last several years and they have held up well. If the connections are clean it sounds like a bad battery although I would probably do a lot more testing before I condemned it. I have seen a bike put out 13.5 volts when first started and the voltage start dropping later.

[cowpuc]

@cowpuc

You do not do the battery drain test with an ohmmeter, that will likely let the magic blue smoke out of your meter if there is a draw. You use an Amp meter on the lowest setting to measure current draw.

 

And yes either lead will work. But be sure to test each lead that is connected to the battery terminal.

 

So @Flyinfool , if the smoke comes out of the meter when doing this test it means you have a battery drain ? Probably cheaper and more effective to just use one of those little test lights with the pokey stabber on the end but no where near as exciting as having a meter go poof in your hand

 

Speaking of all this,,, another way I have found battery drain is just by removing the positive cable and scratching it across the battery post. Had a trunk light switch (was suppose to turn the trunk light off when the lid was closed) go bad once and battery kept going dead.. Found it by doing the old scratch method in the dark - worked great,,,,, I know,, I know,,,,, wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy old school nonsense but matches my personality and back yard gearheadism..

[XV1100SE]

Last night I did some testing....

 

I picked up a digital battery load tester at Princess Auto (comparable to a Harbor Freight)...and with digital meter in hand...

 

I had left the Battery Tender Plus (AGM compatible) connected to the battery all day. With it still connected I had a reading of 14.54v. When I disconnected it the reading started at 13.4v and dropped by a 0.01v every couple seconds. Turned the key to "Start" (but I didn't hit the start switch) and voltage dropped rapidly to 12.5v. Turned the key off and voltage slowly rose to 12.73v.

 

Next step was to test the charging circuit. I started the engine and took voltage readings at various rpm.

1000rpm - 14.10v

1500rpm - 14.10v

2000rpm - 14.10v

2500rpm - 14.15v

3000rpm - 14.17v

3500rpm - 14.18v

4000rpm - 14.18v

 

Turned bike off and reading started at 13.18 and dropped to 12.90v

 

Next step was to try out the battery load tester. Set the CCA to 300. Initial voltage reading displayed on the unit showed 12.6v for the first test and after hitting the test button it dropped to 1.4v. Waited a couple minutes and repeated the test. Initial voltage 12.5 and again dropped to 10.4v.

 

Next test was to confirm the charging system. Manual with the tester says that at "normal" idle of 1200-1500rpm voltage should be above 13.5v. At idle (about 900rpm) voltage read 13.4v and showed a red led indicating "bad". I raised the rpm to 1500rpm and got a reading of 13.6v and "good".

 

Testing the starter was next. Key on voltage on the load tester showed 12.6v Hit the starter button but not long enough for it to start, just turn over the "crank" voltage showed 10.4v.

 

Took my voltage meter and measured between the battery posts - 12.58v. Disconnected the negative wires and measured between the post and wires (all negative wires connected together) - 12.4v and slowly fell to 11.67v Reconnected the wires to the negative post and read between the posts - 12.59v.

 

I removed the Interstate AGM battery from the bike. 12.6v. Connected the Battery Tender and charging voltage showed 12.8v. I left it charging overnight and today and when I get home tonight from work I'll check voltage and test it every couple hours and again tomorrow.

 

With the Ontario rally coming up and wanting to ride to work today (and also see if the problem occurs with a new battery), I purchased a Deka AGM battery and installed it in the bike. Repeating one of the tests with my volt meter :

- battery connected, switch off - 12.71v

- key to start posiiton - 12.26v

1000rpm - 13.4v

1500rpm - 13.99v

2000rpm - 14.01v

2500rpm - 14.02v

3000rpm - 14.04v

 

I'm still leaning towards it being the Interstate battery being the problem rather than the charging system. When I had the problems starting the bike, it would turn over a couple revolutions then stop and I'd get a clicking noise. When I push started the bike the first time, when I popped the clutch the bike started immediately.

 

Rode to work this morning (10C/55F roughly)....30 minute ride at highway speed, turned the bike off and after a minute restarted fine.

 

For anyone that read thru this so far....the two times the bike wouldn't restart, it was fairly warm out and the bike had been running smooth for between 30 minutes and an hour at highway speeds. In both cases trying to restart the bike after being off for between 1 to 4 minutes the engine would turn a couple times and then stop. If it is related to heat, would that lead you to charging system? Battery? Or bad wire (eg the one under the fuel tank) ?

[Gray Ghost]

The suggestion about battery connections is a good one. A loose or dirty ground connection can cause a lot of problems. A suggestion I would have is that anytime you get a new battery, put it on a charger even if it came from the store "fully charged". The biggest killer of batteries is not being properly prepared before being installed and used.

 

For quick checks of battery and charging system I measure the battery with Key off, should be 12+vdc. Key On, should drop just a bit because you now have the bike is preparing for start up. Then measure while hitting the start button, that acts as a load test and your voltage will drop but if it goes below 10 you have an issue. Once the bike starts, if you are reading a greater value than your original battery voltage around idle, and 13+ at 3000 RPM, your charging system is probably OK.

 

Heat can be a problem. Things expand and it is possible that you can have a problem that only crops up when things are warmer.

[XV1100SE]

I cleaned the connections with steel wool and then sprayed them with electrical cleaner before connecting them.

[stickhandle2]

Don,

 

Electronics are not my strong suit, but I had a similar situation with a battery on a previous car, sounds like a short in the battery.

 

Mike

[XV1100SE]

No issues with the bike since I put the new battery on. If it is a bad wiring connection then it might not show up right away.

 

I've had the "old" battery sitting disconnected for a couple days. Going to check voltage again today. Yesterday it had gone down to 12.7v from 12.9v just sitting on it's own. Will also do the load test on it again.

[cecdoo]

After the trike left me sit on the way home from MD I thought all I needed was a new battery, but the new battery just died on me? Seems the charging system aint doing its job. So I guess I will be digging alittle deeper. Bummer no trike on this beautiful holiday weekend:95:

 

Craig

[cowpuc]

After the trike left me sit on the way home from MD I thought all I needed was a new battery, but the new battery just died on me? Seems the charging system aint doing its job. So I guess I will be digging alittle deeper. Bummer no trike on this beautiful holiday weekend:95:

 

Craig

 

Ol Murph is at it again:bawling:!! Never had no 2nd gen but from what I have read - those 2nd Gen Regulators seem to know when to go on vacation (seems more likely than a stator as new as it is).. Maybe recharge the battery, crank er up and do a voltage output test at the battery - see if she runs up over 13.5 volts as you rev er a little.. If not, pull the terminals on the regulator - clean em up,, check/clean other connections at the battery, make sure grounds are clean and give it another test..

From what I have read - the three stator wires terminate at the regulator - you should be able to ohm out the stator there, or start it and see what kinda voltage your getting off the stator,,, still got a gut feeling its regulator related,,, unless you have been running some massive added amp load or something..

Wish I had some 2nd Gen parts Craig,, I would overnight them to you so you could ride - I KNOW HOW YA FEEL BROTHER!!

[cecdoo]

Hey thanks for thinking of me Puc. Charged the battery back up and checked before starting and after starting and while reving it. Volts actually go down while running so it aint charging at all. Hope you are rite about reg/rec as it will be the cheaper fix. You have me thinking tho, I am storing a Millenium for a certain Viking we know, mite have to start swiping parts off of it to keep the trike runnin:grandpa:

 

Craig

[bongobobny]

Hey Craig, I have a spare 2nd gen R/R, and Earl (Skydoc_17) is coming up for my party Monday. Want me to send him home with it?? Earl lives a lot closer to you than me...