Premium Vs. Regular gas - Interesting Investigative report

[VanRiver]

Thought I would stir the pot a bit .....Are you a true believer in spending the extra $$ to put the "good stuff" Premium in your Venture? Here is an interesting investigative report from our good ol' "CBC" (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) :canada:TV show "Market Place" that tries to dispel the rumours and oil company propaganda about Premium vs. Regular gas.

 

I found it very interesting and thought I would share.

What do you guys and gals think? Does it make your scoot go farther, faster, and cleaner?

[bongobobny]

Nope! I don't waste the money, especially when there is a chance of doing more harm than good using premium gas on an engine designed to run on regular.

[videoarizona]

Me? I use whatever the manufacturer recommends..... And for all six vehicles/motors i own... They all say use regular.

 

Well done report. Thanks for sharing!!

David

[Guest Jamsie]

complete waste of money using premium fuel in an engine that requires regular fuel.

higher compression engines use premium grade fuel as lower octane fuel would pre-ignite

[10spd]

I'm to cheap to spend the extra for premium. Although my Hemi Dodge does say 89 recommended 87 is acceptable. So regular it is.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[Bert2006]

In New Brunswick the issue is with how much ethanol you get. Essentialy gaz stations have only2 tanks. One with reg and one with premium, the mid range is blended at the pump. So with reg you get 10% ethanol, with mid range you get 5% and with premium you get 0%. I will run regular in the bike until late fall when it is close to storage time and I swich to premium so that there is no ethanol over winter.

[10spd]

Well here in the states. Every grade if gas is a 10% blend of ethanol. Like you stated 2 tanks at a station. 1 is for regular &1 so for premium. I am a truck driver that hauls gasoline for a living. Not trying to be a smart a**. Just my knowledge of this.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[Freebird]

10spd is correct. You get ethanol here regardless of the grade. The only way to avoid it is to go to a marina or someplace else that had non-ethanol gas and most of those don't have pumps that you can access unless you are in a boat.

[Freebird]

By the way, just for the record, I agree 100% with that report. I NEVER buy premium fuel for any of my cars or the bike. I do believe it is a complete waste of money.

[Doug royal86]

I can get non ethanol gas at a gas station in my town. The pump says for recreational vehicles only so I bring a five gallon can. I am not sure if it really helps.

[Yammer Dan]

I tried it with no sucesss. It just don't do anything and regular runs better in a lot of them.

[MiCarl]

My wife's Lincoln Aviator calls for 91 octane. It runs just fine on 87 because the engine management system retards the timing to keep it from knocking. That does reduce highway mileage by about 2mpg. On a lower compression engine the higher octane would be a waste of money.

 

The first test in the video though is BS. The 6hp and whatever the torque number is is what it takes to spin the machine 50KM/H. That number would be the same with any gasoline and any vehicle. Your Venture would also show 6HP at 50KM/H.

[BlueSky]

GoGas in my area sells 93 octane premium without ethanol. I use it in my motorcycles, lawn mower, boat, and all the small engine lawn tools I have because it makes a huge difference in how fast the carburetor gums up when it sits for a while. My Hemi Magnum is tuned for 91 octane with a Superchips tuner and I use premium with or without ethanol in it. My wife's Inifiniti requires premium and she only buys GoGas premium ethanol free.

 

I drove my Magnum 14k miles in 4 1/2 months on my last contract job. During much of that time I used my Superchips tuner to tune it for 87 octane. The gas mileage was only slightly less and I was saving $10 to $15 per week during that job. One thing I did notice was that on the interstate with the cruise set at 80 mph, it only took a slight grade to cause the engine to switch out of MDS mode and it didn't do that with premium and tuned for premium. So, the engine was producing more power on premium when it was tuned for premium. MDS is what Chrysler called the system that switches off 4 cylinders when cruising with the engine under a light load.

[Karaboo]

Here in the north-woods almost every station has premium without ethanol. They get as many snowmobiles, atv's and boats as they do cars on weekends. I even had a station picked out on my way to work (55 miles) that carried regular 87 octane without ethanol. They changed brands, this spring, so I am back to using a little more Sea-Foam with the 10% ethanol.

[djh3]

I mostly ran regular in the RSV. Occasionally in the mountains I would run some premium. The Victory calls for 91 I think but mostly I run regular back and forth to work. I think with the FI and electronic ignition it can adjust to it much better then the carbs. But basically if the engine is designed for a specific octane it will run best on it and you tossing $$ away. Save those pennies for ice cream.

[leroy]

I have been preaching these facts for years. Glad you posted it. Good info backed by testing.

 

The higher octane retards the ignition of the fuel/air mix therefore as the report states it burns incompletely.

 

I can understand an air cooled engine, even if lower compression, may require a higher octane in hot weather because they may run much hotter thus making it easier for pre-ignition (aka,knock) to take place which will destroy an engine over time. However, if there is a fuel management computer I would guess the computer would retard the spark so as not to allow "engine knock".

 

Two of our cars' owner manuals recommend mid range but in the next sentence they state it will run fine on regular. Go figure. I am sure as the fellow in the video mentioned at a race track there may be a little difference in performance.

 

I have driven both cars on the same 1000 mile road trips and experimented with only regular for the entire trip one time. Then the next time only mid range. No change in mileage.

 

I do have an old pick up with 216,000 miles on it. It is so carboned up that if I run regular and accelerate very quickly, it will knock. I still run regular in it as any fast acceleration my lead to me walking home. It is approaching its last breath.

 

I even had the tech at the Honda dealer try to tell me to run mid range in my Honda VTX. I asked why when the book states regular, 87 octane. He really did not have an answer.

 

I know BMW liquid cooled motorcycle owner manuals state premium required. I really question if that is really needed. I am sure on a race track it might be of benefit.

 

One thing that confuses the octane requirements are the octane ratings being used. In the US and I think Canada use the Pump Octane Number (PON) which is the average of the Research Octane Number (RON) and the Motor Octane Number (MON). MON is also known as the Anti-Knock Index (AKI). So if the owner manual states 91 octane required, is that PON, RON, or MON (AKI)? MON will be 8 to 10 points less than RON. So the PON would be 4 to 5 points lower then RON since PON is the average (MON + RON)/2 = PON.

 

Europe just shows the RON. So perhaps, without doing any research, the Beemers octane requirement may be based on the European system of using RON. When translating BMW may have just skipped that part. Maybe? If they did then if a Beemer requires say 91 RON then 86 or 87 PON would be just about right. Or if require 93 then 88 or 89 would be about right. Some stations in the US offer 93 PON as their premium.

 

One more part of octane requirement: If you have traveled to higher elevations say like Amarillo at only 3600 feet, not high by Colorado's Mt. Evans standard at 14,260 feet, but high enough so the regular there is as low as 85 to 86 PON. You might ask why? Higher elevations do not require as much anti knock formula. That is another subject. Also some states just have a lower minimum octane requirement thus cheaper.

 

I do not know the "cut off" elevation for lower octane requirements but have heard that 2 points lower per 5000 feet. I have no proof. So at those elevations I do not run lower than 87 octane, maybe 86.

 

Bottom line is as stated above, follow the owner's manual.

Edited June 13, 2016 by leroy

[yamagrl]

When I fell in love with the Venture and decided to do my own maintenance and wrenching I have had to research e-e-everything and I have done a bu-u-unch of research.

 

Early on I wondered if premium fuel would be better.

 

What I learned is that octane raises the flashpoint of the fuel which renders is harder to ignite, thereby preventing pre-ignition in the combustion chamber due the extreme temperatures created during the compression stroke in engines with a high compression ratio.This is what is commonly referred to as engine knock and more accurately called "dieseling". It also helps the high compression and higher ignition advance curve to work in concert resulting in hp/torque increase in high-performance engines reminiscent of the muscle cars from the 60s and 70s.

 

In engines with a lower, more moderate compression it is harder for higher octane fuel to combust. With modern electronic ignition and computer controlled fuel injection the modern engine is capable and designed to overcome the variances in fuel quality and additives.

 

In carbureted engines with a moderate combustion ratio such as in the Venture that is not the case.

 

I use regular.

 

Are there any chemical or mechanical engineers that can add to this?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by yamagrl

[Wizard765]

As Bert2006 said. In New Brunswick the premium fuel in most stations has no Methanol. In Ontario it is the same. I actually notice a difference between regular and premium because of this. I know the octane makes no difference but the lack of Methanol in the premium gas makes my bike run smoother. Where I notice it the most is at very low rpms. I know the bike loves to rev up but sometime when I come to a small town and have to slow down I'm too lazy to take my foot off the hwy peg to shift down. I can go slower and still have a smooth acceleration out the other side of town with the premium gas and when I try regular I feel it lugging in the same situation.. Also there is about 30 Kms difference in distance per tank. Again it is not because of the octane but because of the lack of methanol. I don't believe these engines were designed with Methanol in mind.

In fact I no longer buy Shell gas in my area because of the performance difference and I believe it is because they have Methanol in all the grades.

[Venturous Randy]

My experience with my vehicles over the years has been;

On my 83 Venture, regular worked fine unless I was pulling my camper up some of the long grades in the mountains and I would get some pinging. Mid-grade would usually help and premium would stop the pinging.

On my Infinity I35, it calls for premium and I usually run regular as the engine management takes care of it. But, if I run premium, I feel there is noticeably better acceleration with premium as it does not retard the timing so much. I do feel I get slightly better gas mileage with reg as I tend to run it easier.

On my Miata, which should run regular, if timing is too advanced, it will ping a little.

On my 65 Chevelle, back in the old days, with 11.5 compression pistons in the 327, I usually ran premium and occasionally mid-grade. The funny thing was, with that being the time of transitioning away from leaded gas and reg was unleaded and mid and premium was still leaded, I found that if I used about 2/3 reg unleaded and 1/3 premium, it was even better than premium. Evidently,adding some lead to the reg unleaded bumped it up a lot.

We still have a lot of gas stations around here that have no ethanol. The only problem is usually 30 to 50 cents a gallon more. We even have stations that have about 105+ octane racing gas. I will occasionally stop by the Farmers Coop, which is no ethanol and fill up my gas jug for the lawn mower, an occasionally the bike.

It is also my understanding that an engine will run slightly cooler with reg because with premium burning slower, it will saturate the cylinder walls more with heat, as regular will have the heat more in the top of the cylinder.

Randy

[cowpuc]

When I fell in love with the Venture and decided to do my own maintenance and wrenching I have had to research e-e-everything and I have done a bu-u-unch of research.

 

Early on I wondered if premium fuel would be better.

 

What I learned is that octane raises the flashpoint of the fuel which renders is harder to ignite, thereby preventing pre-ignition in the combustion chamber due the extreme temperatures created during the compression stroke in engines with a high compression ratio such as 14-1 and higher.This is what is commonly referred to as engine knock and more accurately called "dieseling". It also helps the high compression and higher ignition advance curve to work in concert resulting in hp/torque increase in high-performance engines reminiscent of the muscle cars from the 60s and 70s.

 

In engines with a lower, more moderate compression it is harder for higher octane fuel to combust. With modern electronic ignition and computer controlled fuel injection the modern engine is capable and designed to overcome the variances in fuel quality and additives.

 

In carbureted engines with a moderate combustion ratio such as in the Venture that is not the case.

 

I use regular.

 

Are there any chemical or mechanical engineers that can add to this?

 

 

 

 

Well Yamagrl,, I aint no engineer but I have enjoyed a lifetime of getting greasy tinkering with stuff and thought I would add something to your excellent synopsis.. Many years ago while torturing the 260 V-8 engine in my junk Mercury Comet (it was junk, passengers had to hold their feet against the door because the pavement was visible where the floor boards were suppose to be) I discovered something very interesting while playing with its points ignition fired distributor and its ignition timing.. I found that by advancing the ignition timing right to the point that it would "ping" when I stomped on it and then backing off the timing (retarding) just enough to get rid of the "ping" I saw the best performance and highest fuel effeciency.. It was not uncommon to see me sitting in a parking lot back then with an old school oddly bent "stributer wrench' in my hand and the hood on my Merc open just seeing if I could squeeze and extra degree of spark advance out of the old girl to maintain my fastest car - legend in my own mind - status..

Though I didn't have a lot of spare change during that time of my life, I did scratch up enough cash one time to give some Sunoco 260 (100 octane) a try in my 260 (thinking higher octane would allow even more spark advance = I REALLY would have the fastest car on the planet) - it didnt work.. My 260 actually lost power and MPG by using the Sunoco 260 - I went back to a diet of Sunoco 190..

Shortly after that I got into playing with high compression pistons in my early biking days and had to rediscover the sole purpose for high octane fuels.. Playing with cam timing, lift and duration coupled with those high compression pistons back in those days also reaffirmed my rediscovery - with no high octane,, even those 350cc Honda "muscle" motors were useless.. I found back then that a compression ratio above 10.5 to 1 required the stuff..

With all those youthful years behind me and after finally finding the perfect motor in our wonderful V-4's (thanks Mom Yam) one would think the need to play with the ping would long be past - and it is.. I do have to admit though that when I travel outwest and find "85" octane at the pump it makes me smile as I once again play the ping game and it has always amazed me at how well my 1st Gens handle that stuff..

 

Yep YamaGrl,, I use regular too...

 

PS - you mentioned "dieseling" - WOW did that bring back memories.. Back in my kid days of fooling with my 260 Mercury V-8 the car manufactures put this little device on the throttle assembly called a "Dash Pot" to control dieseling when ya shut the car off.. All it amounted to was a solenoid that would drop the throttle way below idle when you turned the car off so the car wouldnt set there and jug for an hour or so when you ran into the high school as you were late for class..

[JohnT]

10spd is correct. You get ethanol here regardless of the grade. The only way to avoid it is to go to a marina or someplace else that had non-ethanol gas and most of those don't have pumps that you can access unless you are in a boat.

Freebird. At least here in Northern NY we have ethanol free premium at a large number of stations. Even in a small town like the one I live near. Posibly due to the large number of vehicles and power tools that don't do well with leaving ethanol blends in them for prolonged periods of time.

My VR did not do well on ethanol blends. It would develop a small misfire at times. I learned this on a trip to DC to visit my daughter. Once I got to Maryland ethanol free was not available. Once I got north and could get ethanol free, it ran fine. And in a small town near Central NY I found ethanol free 87 octane. Bike ran fine on it.

My Voyager XII runs fine on ethanol blended fuel so I use it a lot. Now and again I run ethanol free premium just for my own mental benefit. And I will never use ethanol blends over the winter or in small engines that do not get used often.

[Freebird]

Wish you could find it around here. There is a website that shows where you can get ethanol free gas in most areas. All of the listed ones here were marinas and the only way to get it would be to tote cans a pretty good distance to the boat docks.

[Marcarl]

I only have my Spyder that I can talk about. I tried 3 tanks of premium and found no difference in anything, so for me a waste of money. Then after checking the research video ( by the way, I agree the first test was BS) I wonder how many manufactures are stating a higher octane just so that it looks better to the buyer? I mean, after all, "My car needs a higher octane so that means I have a better car ,,,right"? So the folks who can and want to spend more on their car so that they have something better than their neighbor now have a channel to dump the extra cash.

I really liked the fellow from Quebec, that guy is awesome for his job. Skirted around every question put to him, but sounded really good on the surface. He actually had no input into the conversation whatsoever.

Advertising today is all about what the advertiser thinks the consumer wants to hear, put in such a way that when the ad is done the consumers mind is lead to believe that what they wanted to hear was actually said,,,, when in fact, nothing was actually promised or held out as truth. But the consumer goes on their way thinking that they now know and can rely on the information they have in their head as truth.

[Du-Rron]

I has access way back when to AV-gas. 106 Octane low lead. Ran it in two bikes occasionally. When they were on AV-Gas, I could full-throttle in top gear at 30 mph with absolutely no pinging. (high load-low revs) It did not make them faster. It did not make them use less fuel. It made it safer for the engine under high load on a hot day when my intentions were to bang the redline in as many gears as I could, for the four or five passes I was going to run.

Otherwise, I ran regular.

See the AV-GAS stickers below.

 

[Flyinfool]

I once ran a test in my big red truck. I kept a gas log where I recorded the date, odometer, gallons, obtain, brand and cost of every fill up. I did all fillups with premium, mostly with ethanol, for a full year. I then compared this log to a log of a full year with regular gas.

My conclusions were that with the premium gas I did see an improvement in gas mileage, BUT the dollars per mile went down. I also did see a measurable difference in my 0-60 time with premium showing a measurable increase in acceleration capability. Due to the truck having a max speed limiter built into the computer I could not test for a difference in top speed. The biggest difference was when pulling the 6,000 lb RV. I got much better gas mileage and acceleration with the premium, enough that the dollars per mile actually favored the premium. so for towing the heavy load I will still run the premium.

Through all of this I never noticed any difference in normal daily driving, only difference was the performance extremes.

 

So I am another that will run regular unless I have a really heavy load.

 

As for my bike, it only gets premium if there is an option of ethanol free. The lack of ethanol makes a lot more of a difference that the octane.

For the last tank of the year I always bring a couple of fuel jugs deer hunting to get some ethanol free gas (happens to be premium) to store all of my summer engines. There is no ethanol free gas available in SE Wisconsin. the nearest station is 100 miles away and there is only premium available in ethanol free.

 

Up here wee have enough boats, snowmobiles, and other 2 stroke engines around that there are a few gas stations that even have a gas pump of 2 cycle premix.