Help Needed 1st gen will not start

[bongobobny]

Yes they are Pucster!! Either term is correct. Electronic Technicians tend to call then "Capacitors" whereas Auto Mechanics tend to call them "Condensers" because due to their application across the points, they tend to "condense" the voltage level across the points. A Capacitor is basically two thin pieces of metal separated by an insulator called a dielectric. What happens is on each side of the dielectric, on the metal conductive plates, electrons accumulate, or disburse depending on if it is a + (deficiency of electrons) or a - (surplus of electrons). Once a capacitor is "charged" with electricity, each metal plate will now resist a change in the voltage level! Also, when they are discharged they tend to stay that way. A capacitor's main function in life is to resist a change in voltage level!

 

OK, in the case of ignition points, as you know, the points connect and disconnect the ground on the primary side of the coil. The other side of the coil primary has a constant 12 volts (6 volts on the really old timers). Now coils are really just a very long piece of wire! When the ground side of the coil is disconnected from ground (points open) there is the full 12 volts on that terminal which also appears on the one end of the points! Coils do NOT resist changes in voltage level like a capacitor does, their main function in life is to resist a change in current which is a rate of electrons flowing past a given spot. Voltage is a Pressure, or charge LEVEL of electrons, current is a QUANTITY of electrons flowing. Anyway, when the points are open, 12 volts is appearing across the points for a split second (the points are closed longer than they are open) so normally the capacitor sees zero volts on each side of it until the points open. When the points open the capacitor resists the change in voltage, or "condenses" that momentary 12 volts to a smaller level instantaneously but will slowly start to charge up to 12 volts. Just how fast or slow a capacitor charges or discharges depends on two factors, the value of capacitance and the resistance in the circuit. This is called a time constant. Capacitance is determined by the area of the plates and the distance between them and is measured in Farads, named after Mr, Faraday who discovered the property of electrical capacitance. A "Farad" is a REALLY big value, kind of like the Bel for sound level, so it is usually measured in micro or micro micro levels, micro being a millionth!

 

So, in summary, a Capacitor is what the device IS, a Condenser is what the device DOES!! Enough scoolin' for ya Puc???

[Yammer Dan]

Comdenser!!

[cowpuc]

The term condenser is the original term from WAY back in the olden days, The modern term for that same component is capacitor. There are some other countries that still use the term condenser.

 

If you go into your local auto parts store, it is usually old folks that would be looking for points and condenser so they still call it that, I guess mostly out of habit.

 

Thanks Jeff,,, my geezerdom badge looks shinier this morning!

 

Yes they are Pucster!! Either term is correct. Electronic Technicians tend to call then "Capacitors" whereas Auto Mechanics tend to call them "Condensers" because due to their application across the points, they tend to "condense" the voltage level across the points. A Capacitor is basically two thin pieces of metal separated by an insulator called a dielectric. What happens is on each side of the dielectric, on the metal conductive plates, electrons accumulate, or disburse depending on if it is a + (deficiency of electrons) or a - (surplus of electrons). Once a capacitor is "charged" with electricity, each metal plate will now resist a change in the voltage level! Also, when they are discharged they tend to stay that way. A capacitor's main function in life is to resist a change in voltage level!

 

OK, in the case of ignition points, as you know, the points connect and disconnect the ground on the primary side of the coil. The other side of the coil primary has a constant 12 volts (6 volts on the really old timers). Now coils are really just a very long piece of wire! When the ground side of the coil is disconnected from ground (points open) there is the full 12 volts on that terminal which also appears on the one end of the points! Coils do NOT resist changes in voltage level like a capacitor does, their main function in life is to resist a change in current which is a rate of electrons flowing past a given spot. Voltage is a Pressure, or charge LEVEL of electrons, current is a QUANTITY of electrons flowing. Anyway, when the points are open, 12 volts is appearing across the points for a split second (the points are closed longer than they are open) so normally the capacitor sees zero volts on each side of it until the points open. When the points open the capacitor resists the change in voltage, or "condenses" that momentary 12 volts to a smaller level instantaneously but will slowly start to charge up to 12 volts. Just how fast or slow a capacitor charges or discharges depends on two factors, the value of capacitance and the resistance in the circuit. This is called a time constant. Capacitance is determined by the area of the plates and the distance between them and is measured in Farads, named after Mr, Faraday who discovered the property of electrical capacitance. A "Farad" is a REALLY big value, kind of like the Bel for sound level, so it is usually measured in micro or micro micro levels, micro being a millionth!

 

So, in summary, a Capacitor is what the device IS, a Condenser is what the device DOES!! Enough scoolin' for ya Puc???

 

OUTSTANDING BONGO!! Definitely PLENTY of scoolin there for the this old boy (see response to Fool above!)..

[Yammer Dan]

That one will never sit in my head right. I will always think Condenser when talking about points. Course they ain't gonna be too many talks about points from now on is there??? I had a old Trumpet that I couldn't get them snug for some reason. Cain't remember why but for a while I would ride 10-20 miles stop adjust points. Ride again stop adjust points. Kept a file and extra set of points with me. You see if you work this right with that little cutie on the back those stops can be Interesting if you pull over and find a place to hide you and

the scoot......:backinmyday:

[Yammer Dan]

Well Oldseadog?? Whats going on?? We didn't mean to get sidetracked. We are waiting........

[Oldseadog]

Well Oldseadog?? Whats going on?? We didn't mean to get sidetracked. We are waiting........

 

As everyone knows life has a habit of getting in the way. I worked on the bike Monday to no avail. The car club was closed Tuesday and Wednesday, and yesterday was my wife birthday as well (wouldn't dare work on the bike last night). Tonight I was going to work on the bike, but, life AHHHH! I have made an appointment to work on her tomorrow.

No worries about getting sidetracked, it is just the way of life. I enjoyed the read.

I will keep everyone updated as I go along. Until later .......

Ciao

[Yammer Dan]

LOL Yeah know all about that. My 99 has been a couple hrs away from being Road ready again for about 2 months. Garage time hard to find lately!!

[Oldseadog]

OMG, you guys make this sound sooooo easy! Getting the TCI out IS a b!&@#!!!! After 3 hours the TCI is unconnected but not out. I was reading about how to check the TCI, but it does not seem to be working. I checked the resistance between the battery ground and a frame bolt, I got a reading of 1.5 OHMs. I started checking the wires on the 6 pin connector and kept getting no reading on the multimeter. So I think I am doing something wrong. Should I be checking the connections with the battery connected via booster cables? I printed and tried to follow the, TCI - testing, info in the Technical library read only section. I am finding hard to fully understand.

Rocket lent me a spare TCI, but I can't get the old one out. The throttle cables are tied to the TCI mount, and I don't see where I can remove the TCI without disconnecting the throttle cables. Is this right, or is there a way to remove the unit without disconnecting the cables?

I'm also wondering, when does one say it is time to pull the plates, leave it on the lift, cancel the riding season and take it right down for restoration? and Is it worth it?

Edited May 15, 2016 by Oldseadog
added some more information

[Yammer Dan]

If you have the old one disconnected carefully pull the slack out of the wires and hook up your spare. You can move it to the top of the battery box ans leave the old one in place but I was never one for doing that. The screws are hard to get to but once you get them broken loose they should come out. THat is a special Phillips and I can't think of the name. I got to one and broke them loose with little vise grips. It takes time.

[bongobobny]

Hmmm, don't recall the throttle cables being tied to anything there! Yah, to get the TCI out you need to remove both fairings, the airbox, the coil pack, and then the plate the TCI and vacuum advance unit are mounted on (or are they mounted on the bottom of the coil pack, I forgot!). Oh yes, and the battery!

 

Like Dan says, if you ALREADY have the TCI unplugged, just hook up the test one and see if the bike starts!!

 

If you are looking at voltage on the pins, then of course the battery has to be connected. If you are looking at RESISTANCE, then the battery should absolutely be disconnected!!

 

BTW 1.5 ohms between the battery ground and the frame sounds like you may have a slight amount of corrosion where the battery cable connects to ground but not necessarily. I would expect to see less than 1.0, but that will depend on the meter. Touch both probes of the meter together and see what it reads. Theoretically you should see Zero, but in reality you should see 1 or 2 tenths of an ohm. You subtract that reading from the reading you get when you repeat your battery ground continuity reading to get the TRUE reading...

[Yammer Dan]

Clean those connections good. I think there is a thread on moving TCI to top of Air cleaner but you won't need it if you already got old one unplugged. There will be enough slack in wires to move. Just don't yank on them too hard. As Bongo said just put battery back in and try it.

[syscrusher]

Once a capacitor is "charged" with electricity, each metal plate will now resist a change in the voltage level! Also, when they are discharged they tend to stay that way. A capacitor's main function in life is to resist a change in voltage level!

Coils do NOT resist changes in voltage level like a capacitor does, their main function in life is to resist a change in current which is a rate of electrons flowing past a given spot.

 

It's a little off the mark Bob, here's a quote I lifted from another forum:

"condensers "absorb" the inductive coil magnetic field induced flow of electrons when the points OPEN. This is a normal natural coil phenomon and is actually what causes "sparkies" that make yer sparkles spark. Without a condenser, that 0.015" points gap will burn-out. When you really OPEN a switch (and points are a special switch) there is little/NO spark strong enuff to jump a WIDE-GAPP, but that itty-bitty 0.015 points gap ain't wide enuff, so the electrons will JUMP the gap unless they are absorbed by the condenser.

 

NOTE: condensers are 2-metal foil conductors seperated by an insulative film. When the points close, the points actually short-out the 2-foils and DISCHARGE the condenser so there is a place ready the next time to absorb the extra electrons when the points OPEN."

 

Capacitors block DC, once charged, but pass AC. Coils resist AC but pass DC. The coil primary has few windings compared to the secondary. A coil stores voltage in an electro-magnetic field (EMF) surrounding the coil. A solenoid is a coil that will draw a freely moving iron rod into it's magnetic field when a voltage is applied. A spring pulls the rod out when the coil is inactive. The coil resists a change in voltage and the capacitor resists a change in current. The capacitor will discharge some or all of the charge difference on it's plates if current decreases, but that's not really what's important here. When the points open the 12 volts DC across the coil primary disappears. The condenser is fully discharged and so becomes the circuit path for the voltage generated by the coil's collapsing EMF. The capacitor wants to charge quickly and facilitates a rapid voltage reversal from the coil. The collapse of the coil EMF also induces a voltage in the secondary (coils are called "inductors") and the far greater number of windings there multiplies or "steps up" the voltage while "stepping down" the current. This is how a transformer works as well and it only works with a varying voltage (AC) through the windings on the input side and a step-up or step-down ratio given by the difference in primary vs secondary windings. To start with 12v and step-up to 25,000v for jumping the spark plug gap the winding difference in coils is large: 25000/12 = 2080 times more. That means the secondary will be wound with finer wire and will handle less current. Usually a bad coil means an open secondary. If the capacitor becomes open then the 12v will arc across the points each time they open and they will no longer work reliably because they won't conduct well when closed. If the capacitor shorts then the EMF will not induce a secondary voltage because the circuit will always conduct 12v and the coil will be just a wire or electro-magnet.

[bongobobny]

Hmmmm, I did not discuss the coil's function, just the capacitor's function across the points. A capacitor resists a CHANGE in EMF (Electro Motive Force) or Voltage across it. Once again, as I stated, and so does your quoted article, that when the points open, ground is lifted and 12 volts appears on the one side of the points (The other side being permanently grounded). The capacitor, as your quote points out, has been discharged by the points being closed, which is the case as the points are closed more than they are open for 1 cycle of operation. When the points open the Capacitor "Condenses" the change in EMF, thus retarding what the author refers to as "Sparkies" a term I cannot ever remember ever being taught, heard of in all my years in the electronic industry, or ever hearing an automotive technician use! The end result, the arcing across the points is retarded, and the surface of the points survive to live another cycle. Notice the key word "retarded, the spark is not completely eliminated, if it was the points would last forever and ever when in reality they do eventually become pitted from low level sparking.

 

In our conversation Puc and I were talking specifically about the Condenser, not the ignition circuit. What your quoted article is discussing is more so how the coil works in the ignition circuit. Soooo, in light of what Puc and I were talking about, JUST the Capacitor/Condenser and not the coil, how am I off the mark?? In my original post the paragraph after the one you quoted I stated "When the points open the capacitor resists the change in voltage, or "condenses" that momentary 12 volts" and your quoted article states "When the points close, the points actually short-out the 2-foils and DISCHARGE the condenser so there is a place ready the next time to absorb the extra electrons when the points OPEN." Isn't that saying the same thing??

[cowpuc]

It's a little off the mark Bob, here's a quote I lifted from another forum:

"condensers "absorb" the inductive coil magnetic field induced flow of electrons when the points OPEN. This is a normal natural coil phenomon and is actually what causes "sparkies" that make yer sparkles spark. Without a condenser, that 0.015" points gap will burn-out. When you really OPEN a switch (and points are a special switch) there is little/NO spark strong enuff to jump a WIDE-GAPP, but that itty-bitty 0.015 points gap ain't wide enuff, so the electrons will JUMP the gap unless they are absorbed by the condenser.

 

NOTE: condensers are 2-metal foil conductors seperated by an insulative film. When the points close, the points actually short-out the 2-foils and DISCHARGE the condenser so there is a place ready the next time to absorb the extra electrons when the points OPEN."

 

Capacitors block DC, once charged, but pass AC. Coils resist AC but pass DC. The coil primary has few windings compared to the secondary. A coil stores voltage in an electro-magnetic field (EMF) surrounding the coil. A solenoid is a coil that will draw a freely moving iron rod into it's magnetic field when a voltage is applied. A spring pulls the rod out when the coil is inactive. The coil resists a change in voltage and the capacitor resists a change in current. The capacitor will discharge some or all of the charge difference on it's plates if current decreases, but that's not really what's important here. When the points open the 12 volts DC across the coil primary disappears. The condenser is fully discharged and so becomes the circuit path for the voltage generated by the coil's collapsing EMF. The capacitor wants to charge quickly and facilitates a rapid voltage reversal from the coil. The collapse of the coil EMF also induces a voltage in the secondary (coils are called "inductors") and the far greater number of windings there multiplies or "steps up" the voltage while "stepping down" the current. This is how a transformer works as well and it only works with a varying voltage (AC) through the windings on the input side and a step-up or step-down ratio given by the difference in primary vs secondary windings. To start with 12v and step-up to 25,000v for jumping the spark plug gap the winding difference in coils is large: 25000/12 = 2080 times more. That means the secondary will be wound with finer wire and will handle less current. Usually a bad coil means an open secondary. If the capacitor becomes open then the 12v will arc across the points each time they open and they will no longer work reliably because they won't conduct well when closed. If the capacitor shorts then the EMF will not induce a secondary voltage because the circuit will always conduct 12v and the coil will be just a wire or electro-magnet.

 

Hmmmm, I did not discuss the coil's function, just the capacitor's function across the points. A capacitor resists a CHANGE in EMF (Electro Motive Force) or Voltage across it. Once again, as I stated, and so does your quoted article, that when the points open, ground is lifted and 12 volts appears on the one side of the points (The other side being permanently grounded). The capacitor, as your quote points out, has been discharged by the points being closed, which is the case as the points are closed more than they are open for 1 cycle of operation. When the points open the Capacitor "Condenses" the change in EMF, thus retarding what the author refers to as "Sparkies" a term I cannot ever remember ever being taught, heard of in all my years in the electronic industry, or ever hearing an automotive technician use! The end result, the arcing across the points is retarded, and the surface of the points survive to live another cycle. Notice the key word "retarded, the spark is not completely eliminated, if it was the points would last forever and ever when in reality they do eventually become pitted from low level sparking.

 

In our conversation Puc and I were talking specifically about the Condenser, not the ignition circuit. What your quoted article is discussing is more so how the coil works in the ignition circuit. Soooo, in light of what Puc and I were talking about, JUST the Capacitor/Condenser and not the coil, how am I off the mark?? In my original post the paragraph after the one you quoted I stated "When the points open the capacitor resists the change in voltage, or "condenses" that momentary 12 volts" and your quoted article states "When the points close, the points actually short-out the 2-foils and DISCHARGE the condenser so there is a place ready the next time to absorb the extra electrons when the points OPEN." Isn't that saying the same thing??

 

These Graduate Level courses in Electronic Studies can be kind of intense... Probably because they assume that a person like myself actually passed the Pre-Requisite classes - personally I am still back in Electronics 101...

[bongobobny]

Hehehehehe!! Yah Puc, this thread got sooo hijacked from it's original subject, didn't it?!!?

[cowpuc]

Hehehehehe!! Yah Puc, this thread got sooo hijacked from it's original subject, didn't it?!!?

 

Yessirrreeee Bongo,,,, yessirrrreee it sure did.... Gotta add though,,,,,, be it ever soooooo hi-jackable there's nooooo place like home...

 

Sooo,, doing a double hi-jack and reversing polarity on that epic condenser adventure so we get a positive reading on our EMF outages,,,,,,,,, I wonder if Sea Puppy was able to piggy back another TCI without ripping his bike all to smitherings:178:.. Hope so:fingers-crossed-emo!! Aint nothing worse than sitting in a classroom trying to decipher what's wrong with your scoot when you could be out smelling the roses while chasing the front wheel!

[Oldseadog]

Like Dan says, if you ALREADY have the TCI unplugged, just hook up the test one and see if the bike starts!!

 

If you are looking at voltage on the pins, then of course the battery has to be connected. If you are looking at RESISTANCE, then the battery should absolutely be disconnected!!

 

BTW 1.5 ohms between the battery ground and the frame sounds like you may have a slight amount of corrosion where the battery cable connects to ground but not necessarily. I would expect to see less than 1.0, but that will depend on the meter. Touch both probes of the meter together and see what it reads. Theoretically you should see Zero, but in reality you should see 1 or 2 tenths of an ohm. You subtract that reading from the reading you get when you repeat your battery ground continuity reading to get the TRUE reading...

 

bongo, It must be my meter, as I get a 1.5ohm reading when I touch the two probes together. The meter is blank when I have the probes between the battery ground wire and any wire on the 6pin connector.

[Oldseadog]

Sooo,, doing a double hi-jack and reversing polarity on that epic condenser adventure so we get a positive reading on our EMF outages,,,,,,,,, I wonder if Sea Puppy was able to piggy back another TCI without ripping his bike all to smitherings:178:.. Hope so:fingers-crossed-emo!! Aint nothing worse than sitting in a classroom trying to decipher what's wrong with your scoot when you could be out smelling the roses while chasing the front wheel!

 

All the connections LOOK clean, but I will see about cleaning the connections in a bit. I didn't piggyback the other TCI as I didn't think of just connecting it and trying to start the bike. I thought I had to replace the old one first.Soooooo............

 

When I get back from my trip back to Saskatchewan (easy to draw, hard to spell) on the 26th, or 27th, I will get back to the bike. I will talk to you guys later.

[syscrusher]

Hmmmm, I did not discuss the coil's function, just the capacitor's function across the points.

 

In our conversation Puc and I were talking specifically about the Condenser, not the ignition circuit. What your quoted article is discussing is more so how the coil works in the ignition circuit. Soooo, in light of what Puc and I were talking about, JUST the Capacitor/Condenser and not the coil, how am I off the mark?? In my original post the paragraph after the one you quoted I stated "When the points open the capacitor resists the change in voltage, or "condenses" that momentary 12 volts" and your quoted article states "When the points close, the points actually short-out the 2-foils and DISCHARGE the condenser so there is a place ready the next time to absorb the extra electrons when the points OPEN." Isn't that saying the same thing??

 

Sorry, I thought it was about explaining the whole sparklies system and it seemed to be missing details about the coil and how we get it to fire the sparklers. It's interesting about characterizing the capacitors as resisting a voltage change and the coil as resisting a current change. It seems to be a popular way of remembering those functional aspects. A capacitor bleeds off charge, or current, when the voltage across it's plates is too low (decreasing) to maintain the level of charge. It stores or soaks up additional charge when the voltage (increases) allows for a greater density of charge difference. If you look at what it does with the electrons stored on it's plates in response to voltage change it sources some current when the power supply is sourcing less current (because voltage decreased and resistance is the same (E/R=I)). So is it really resisting the voltage change or the current change?

 

Here's an article that sort of looks at things in the opposite way:

 

Capacitors and Inductors

Their responses to changes in voltage

NMSU-Grants, Electronics/Electrical Department

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A sudden change in voltage can occur when a switch is closed or opened. It can also occur when a squarewave is present. (The following properties don't apply to gradual changes, such as occur when there is a sinewave present.)

 

Inductors

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[TD=align: center]The following are true when there is a sudden change in voltage across an ideal inductor:

 

• Right when the sudden change occurs, the inductor acts like an open circuit.
  
• Immediately after the sudden change is over, the voltage across the inductor starts to decrease.
  
• If the voltage across the inductor remains constant for a long time, the inductor will act like a short circuit.
  

 

Here are some other properties of inductors experiencing sudden changes in voltage:

 

• When a sudden voltage change across an inductor is such that the inductor's magnetic field will be reduced, the inductor will react by creating a voltage opposing the change. Sometimes very large voltages can be produced by this reaction, and other components can be damaged.
  
  • In DC circuits, a diode is often connected in parallel with the inductor to prevent voltage spikes.
    
  • In AC circuits, a capacitor is often connected in parallel with the inductor to prevent voltage spikes.
    

   

  [*]Inductors are also often used to prevent high-frequency AC from going where it is undesired. External computer cables often have inductors in them. These inductors keep high frequency current from interfering with TVs, etc.

 

Real inductors have a certain amount of resistance due to the length of wire needed to form the coil. Some inductors have quite large resistances (hundreds of ohms). Others have very small resistances (tenth's of an ohm or less). To create an inductor that has low resistance, large diameter wire needs to be used. Thus low-resistance inductors with large inductance values are physically large. (To obtain large inductance values, a large number of turns of wire is needed.)[/TD]

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Capacitors

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[TD=align: center]The following are true when there is a sudden change in voltage across an ideal capacitor:

 

• Right when the sudden change occurs, the capacitor acts like a short circuit (a piece of wire).
  
• Immediately after the sudden change is over, the capacitor starts charging up.
  
• If the voltage across the capacitor remains constant for a long time, the capacitor will act like an open circuit.
  

Here are some other properties of capacitors experiencing sudden changes in voltage.

• Large capacitors can absorb large amounts of current when there is a sudden change in voltage. In some circumstances, these large currents can damage other components (especially semiconductors).
  
• Capacitors can supply large amounts of current when there is a sudden change in voltage. Often this is a desireable feature. However, it can also damage other components.
  

Real capacitors have a certain amount of inductance. This inductance keeps the capacitor from acting like zero ohms when sudden changes occur. Ceramic and mica capacitors have little inductance, and thus they act almost like zero ohms during sudden voltage changes. Tubular capacitors have more inductance, but this inductance is still quite small.

 

The wires supplying DC power to digital circuit boards have a certain amount of inductance that keeps current from flowing freely whenever the circuitry has a sudden demand for current. On such circuit boards, it's common practice to have two parallel capacitors connected across the DC supply lines. These capacitors are often referred to as decoupling capacitors (because they decouple the circuit board from the inductance present in the DC supply wires going to it). Such capacitors keep the DC voltage more constant than it would otherwise be. They supply brief bursts of current when the digital circuitry switches on and off. One of these capacitors is usually ceramic and the other tubular (or some other type that has large capacitance, but also significant inductance). Ceramic capacitors have low capacitance values, but as mentioned earlier, they also have the very desireable low inductance needed. Thus, when a ceramic capacitor is in parallel with a tubular capacitor connected across DC supply lines, the ceramic capacitor is able to supply current quickly. However, because ceramic capacitors have only small amounts of capacitance, they can't supply current for very long. One the ceramic decoupling capacitor has given up it's charge, the tubular capacitor takes over. By this time, voltage across the tubular capacitor will have overcome the capacitor's inductance. Because tubular capacitors can have large capacitance values, they are able to keep supplying current until the sudden demand for current is over. By this time, inductance in the power supply wires will have been overcome by the voltage from the main power supply. The decoupling capacitors are then able to recharge themselves and be ready to supply the next surge in current.[/TD]

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Edited May 18, 2016 by syscrusher

[bongobobny]

Hey Sys, no problem. It all started when the archaic "points" ignition system was brought up, and I mentioned about when the condenser shorts out (a fairly common problem waaaaay back in the day)it in essence shorted out the points killing the ignition, but I called it a capacitor, then Puc wanted to know which term is correct, capacitor (What electrically it is) or a condenser (what it does in the application). You see, I've been involved in Electronics since I was 12, I used to make money as a teen fixing AM radios, and was a Ham Radio operator at age 14 so I tend to call them capacitors. Puc, on the other hand was a wrench when he was young and is more familiar with the Auto Mechanic's term Condenser. So, he asked and I answered about Capacitor vs. Condenser and why it is referred to as a Condenser...

[syscrusher]

Hey Sys, no problem. It all started when the archaic "points" ignition system was brought up, and I mentioned about when the condenser shorts out (a fairly common problem waaaaay back in the day)it in essence shorted out the points killing the ignition, but I called it a capacitor, then Puc wanted to know which term is correct, capacitor (What electrically it is) or a condenser (what it does in the application). You see, I've been involved in Electronics since I was 12, I used to make money as a teen fixing AM radios, and was a Ham Radio operator at age 14 so I tend to call them capacitors. Puc, on the other hand was a wrench when he was young and is more familiar with the Auto Mechanic's term Condenser. So, he asked and I answered about Capacitor vs. Condenser and why it is referred to as a Condenser...

 

I've been a long time tinkerer with circuits since young as well. I got an Associates degree but then went on to work in software development and much of what I had learned is a fuzzy grey color now.

 

I've got a question for you, an old retired mechanic I know was telling about something, saying it was common knowledge to anyone who had worked on engines, etc. He said that if you suspect a fouled plug you disconnect that ignition wire and then hold it next to the plug while turning the engine over, making the spark jump that gap, and it will soon clean the plug gap and start running correctly. This makes no sense to me and I can't find anything about it online. Have you ever heard of this?

 

Motion Pro sells this thing, but there is no mention of using it to do anything but test the spark:

http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/articles/view/3003/ignition_system_tester__08-0122/

[bongobobny]

Nope!! That's a new one on me too!! I know about CAREFULLY pulling plug wires one at a time to find the dead cylinder, but not about cleaning a fouled plug in that manner! Of course I certainly don't know all there is to know, so who knows?!!? It's just as easy to pull the plug and clean it once you find the bad one IMHO, or for that matter change out all the plugs because if one went bad, the others are soon to follow!

 

I certainly understand the fuzzy grey color!! Waaaaay back in the early 60's when I was taking Electronics in High School, we learned tube theory first and then a short introductory to the transistor, and we were told it was really a Bell experimental project and they would never replace tubes!! How times have changed!! Even IC's have evolved to the point where you just treat them like "black boxes" where you put something in and you get something else out! I wonder if they even teach how to figure out the gain of an op amp or how to make them oscillate, etc...

 

In a way I'm glad my eyes started to go in my 40's and I switched careers from Electronics to hydraulics! It was an easy transition and I didn't have to stare at little circuit boards chasing invisible electrons thru a rat's maze only to loose track of them as they traveled thru a piece of carbon or something else. Besides, I found it interesting and somewhat exciting working on Aircraft hardware!

[Flyinfool]

The trick of adding in some gap length was also good for getting a flooded engine started. You pulled all the caps back a bit and the extra length of spark gap would allow the plugs to fire thru the wet. I do not know what the theory behind it is but I know that I got me running more than once.

[syscrusher]

The trick of adding in some gap length was also good for getting a flooded engine started. You pulled all the caps back a bit and the extra length of spark gap would allow the plugs to fire thru the wet. I do not know what the theory behind it is but I know that I got me running more than once.

 

Amazing! I wonder.... I do know from experience that with plugs in a deep well like ours you can get a little water inside there and short the coil discharge to ground. It seems that maybe the water is turned to steam (vapor) that penetrates the plug boot and facilitates the conduction to ground. When it happened to my VN2000 (from washing) it ran terrible until I dried it all out really well and let it sit for a day with the caps off the plugs.

[bongobobny]

Yes, and removing the boots gives you a two fold benefit. It increases the surface area of the plug exposed to air so that it can evaporate better, and the same applies to the boot, especially the inside area where moisture has penetrated!

 

Here's an interesting factoid. Pure water is actually an insulator!! It's the impurities within the water that turn it into a conductor!!

A brand new plug wire is somewhat less likely to foul out as the exterior surface is relatively contamination free. With time, dust and other contaminants on the surface will tend to make them break down when combined with the deterioration caused by time. Back in the day a somewhat common problem for an older car to be hard starting either when it was raining, or very high humidity on the verge of raining. During normal weather the car would run fine, when it rained it could strand you! A new set of wires and distributor cap fixed it every time! A lot of the arcing was around the surface of the cap, especially on the inside where condensation tended to accumulate! WD40 was a quick temporary fix...