Clutch Question

[BigMike55]

Hello gents.. First time poster here. I have a clutch problem that's about to make me pull what's left of my hair out.

I've been riding since the late 70's, so I pretty much knew when my clutch was slipping. I decided to go whole hog and replaced the plates and pressure plate with Barnett stuff.

I took the old stuff out and replaced everything. I was going to take a test drive and when I grabbed the clutch lever, it went solid. I had no clutch. I took it back apart and rotated the pressure plate one bolt hole. I also pushed the piston back in the hole as far as it would go. Everything went together solid, no slack in the discs etc. I figured this is good. I buttoned everything up and when I grabbed the clutch lever, it went all the way to the handlebar and would not pump up.. I have a slave cylinder repair kit on order but I'm not sure that is my problem. My thinking is that when I put the pressure plate in wrong, the piston came out further than it normally does and when I pushed it back in, Maybe I blew the seals out??? This bike has 50,000 miles on the clock and the slave cylinder has never been serviced.

Can someone please give me some advice... I'm running out of hair to pull out.

[bongobobny]

First thing, WELCOME!!

 

As far as rebuilding the slave cylinder, the best thing to do is replace, not rebuild. Although you can rebuild, many many of us have found out that the rebuild sometimes does not last long, or does not work out as good as it should, all depending on the condition of the cylinder, and just how much you have to hone the cylinder walls. A new replacement slave is only around $50, give or take. A rebuilt slave is a rebuilt slave, not as good as new, and the next thing you know, it needs replacing again!!

 

Not being where you are, it's kind of hard to guess what is wrong with the rebuild. Although the Barnett setup is a good one, there is an easier and less expensive fix that many times does not require a complete teardown of the clutch. It is a replacement heavy duty "disc" spring that looks like the stock one and is made by PCW racing. Of course what you did is going to give you a nice strong long lasting setup! Now, did you replace the clutch plate with the heavy duty version made by Yamaha?? If you did, then you did not use the wire that was with the stock one?

 

If you look it the tech read only section, there is a great step by step illustrated set of instructions on how to rebuild the clutch...

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?10518-Clutch-Upgrade

 

Hopefully this will get you started. If the hydraulic clutch worked fine before you did the clutch, I would suspect it still should be good, or as good as one with 50K on it can be. I suppose you possibly could have blown the internal seals but part of me doubts it. It's just a simple piston arrangement, nothing special about it...

[BigMike55]

First thing, WELCOME!!

 

As far as rebuilding the slave cylinder, the best thing to do is replace, not rebuild. Although you can rebuild, many many of us have found out that the rebuild sometimes does not last long, or does not work out as good as it should, all depending on the condition of the cylinder, and just how much you have to hone the cylinder walls. A new replacement slave is only around $50, give or take. A rebuilt slave is a rebuilt slave, not as good as new, and the next thing you know, it needs replacing again!!

 

Not being where you are, it's kind of hard to guess what is wrong with the rebuild. Although the Barnett setup is a good one, there is an easier and less expensive fix that many times does not require a complete teardown of the clutch. It is a replacement heavy duty "disc" spring that looks like the stock one and is made by PCW racing. Of course what you did is going to give you a nice strong long lasting setup! Now, did you replace the clutch plate with the heavy duty version made by Yamaha?? If you did, then you did not use the wire that was with the stock one?

 

If you look it the tech read only section, there is a great step by step illustrated set of instructions on how to rebuild the clutch...

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?10518-Clutch-Upgrade

 

Hopefully this will get you started. If the hydraulic clutch worked fine before you did the clutch, I would suspect it still should be good, or as good as one with 50K on it can be. I suppose you possibly could have blown the internal seals but part of me doubts it. It's just a simple piston arrangement, nothing special about it...

 

Thanks Bob.

I did not use any replacement Yamaha parts. I went all Barnett. All the discs and the pressure plate/springs. I used the larger diameter disc first and the spacer and the toothed disc. I reused the original wire to hold all that. Then alternated disc, steel,disc,steel until all were on. Then the pressure plate and springs. It is a pretty simple setup. I just don't know what I could have done wrong.

[Du-Rron]

Git rid of the wire. It is only used with the half disk clutch plate, "spacer"????? The circular spring seat and the circular Belleville spring (marked with the word OUTSIDE on it) are only used with the half disk as well. Git rid of them also.

Without the half clutch disk, spring seat, and Belleville spring, be prepaired to have full clutch engagement on the last 1/8" of lever travel.

I tried this setup and went back with the half clutch disk, spring seat, and Belleville spring because I liked the way it drove better. No clutch slipping and I ain't no easy rider.

[k9cottage]

just a thought when you dismantled the clutch did you take the pushrod out if you did you may have left the small ball out [they have a habit of rolling away if you don't keep an eye on them] this would let the slave go fully out and get hard. part #22

 

Edited April 28, 2016 by k9cottage

[BigMike55]

OK let me ask one more dumb question... I don't have to have the cover back on and engine running for her to get any pressure on the lever do I? I have tried everything suggested and the clutch still feels like there's no pressure built up. There IS suppose to be some feel there right? The small piston never came out so the ball never came out.

[bongobobny]

Ummmm, no, you shouldn't need the engine running, it's just a hydraulic master and slave cylinder very similar to the brakes. I don't think having the cover off will make any difference, but never tried operating the clutch with the cover off myself...

[k9cottage]

a short while ago a discussion on the back pressure hole in the master cylinder by any chance could this be your problem [just thinking out loud ] of anything that can go wrong with the clutch . i had this happen on my bike and thought the clutch was slipping was a small piece of what looked like a grain of sand i got it out with a small bit of wire and all is good now.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?117486-Crazy-scary

[MikeWa]

If you replaced the clutch plates alignment is critical. If out of alignment they will not drop all the way in. I hate bleeding clutches. They never do what you want. They are not like brakes so there is no pumping them up. If you have a vacuum bleeder judicious use of that will usually get the job done. If you are using one of the hand vacuum pumps like the Mighty Vac use the cup that came with it. Put the cup in line between the bleeder and the pump. Get some vacuum in the cup then open and close the bleeder in spurts. Keep the master cylinder full. I usually do this until I get clean fluid into the cup.

 

Here is the problem. Air bubbles like to rise so sometimes it is difficult to work all of them out of the line to the master cylinder. That is ok though. As long as you get enough out for the clutch to work. Then letting the bike sit overnight will let whatever is left float up and out the master cylinder.

 

With the piston all the way back in the slave I don't know what it will take to get it moving. Or if you might have damaged it on the first go around. Did it dump all of the fluid? It is generally not necessary to push the piston all the way back. Clutch pressure should position it for you.

 

Mike

[BigMike55]

Thanks to everyone for all the ideas and advice. Maybe I'm just confusing the pressure buildup that you get with brakes with the clutch pressure. I think after work today I will replace the cover and start her up and see what happens when I put it in gear. I'm just confused, cuz when I press the clutch lever, it goes all the way to the handlebar and I can't see that it has moved anything down at the pressure plate. I guess worse case I will remove the slave and replace the seals and see what happens. Thanks again.

[Flyinfool]

Yes the clutch lever will go all the way to the grip. Unlike brakes the pressure does not increase as the lever moves farther, it stays pretty constant over the full range of travel. The amount of movement in the clutch is very small and would be hard to see.

[RedRider]

I assume this is a 2nd gen. Having done a few clutches, you have made a good choice with the Barnett. Couple of things. 1) If you are using a solid innermost friction disc, you don't need the wire. Gently remove it (so it can be reused when you don't like the limited clutch handle throw); 2) You don't have the discs aligned properly. Take it apart and carefully replace one at a time. Note the flat that has two notches in it. This is critical to the alignment. There are two corresponding dots on the clutch housing that mark the proper orientation of the clutch discs.

 

I think this will take care of your issue. Make sure you are using an IN-LB torque wrench on the clutch pressure plate bolts. They don't take much and will easily strip out.

 

Good luck.

 

RR

[cowpuc]

In the bottom of the master cylinder you will see two small orvices, one of these is feed for the piston to compress the fluid and force the slave piston to disengage the clutch, the other is a return hole to release pressure. It sounds to me like the piston in your slave needs to be repositioned against the rod that forces the pressure plate and maybe plugging off the return hole momentarily would assist in doing this. If it were mine I would stick my finger into the master cylinder and plug the return orvice and gently pump the lever until I felt resistance. Then remove my finger and see if I had a clutch and if it held.. Does any of that make sense? Sometimes I have some goofy, off the wall ideas and hard to follow so its ok to laugh if it dont

[BigMike55]

Okay... Mikey still no fixxey.

1. I put her back exactly like it was before I started messing with it. Still no clutch. Lever goes to handlebar super easy.

2. I put it back with all the Barnett stuff. Someone here mentioned matching the notches with the dots. My new Barnett plates have no notches like the originals. There is nothing different about any of these tabs. I just staggered clutch plate and steel until they were all installed. Then I put the pressure plate and the springs and former to 65 in-lbs. The book says 5.8 ft-lbs. Still nothing. I could see the plates and the pressure plate move out about 1/32". I put the cover back on and started up the engine and let it run until hot, to get the plates oiled up. Still nothing. She will not go into any gear.

3. Thinking maybe I blew out the seals on the slave cylinder, I removed and replaced the seals and bled the clutch. I still get no pressure on the clutch lever and she still will not go into gear.

I can't imagine what I have done wrong. I even had a friend over to help and he could not figure it out either. I'm about to bring it to a dealer (stealer) to get them to trigger it out. At my wit's end. Any other ideas???

Edited April 30, 2016 by BigMike55

[cowpuc]

Did you check and see if the plates were tight in the basket after you torqued it down? Almost sounds like you are missing a plate or something. If you got 1/32 of movement out of the pressure plate after tightening the spring bolts up that sounds adequate for clutch disengagement.. Also,, never worked on a single spring Yamaha but I have on some Harley's, the HD singles are concaved springs, any chance your putting the spring in upside down?

[Flyinfool]

Its been a long time since I was in there, There is a washer with an internal spline that is common to get in the wrong place that can cause your issue, the washer does not go where it looks like it should. double check the assembly diagrams to be sure you have it right.

[BigMike55]

Yeah, plates were tight. That's what I thought too. 1/32" ought to be enough. One guy said maybe I need to service the clutch cylinder on the handlebar. I might say that, if it was acting weird before I started this job, but it was doing just right before. Just was slipping in the higher gears.

[Condor]

Remove the clutch pressure plate. With your finger on the end of the rod, gently squeeze the lever . Does it move? Then the problem is with the clutch basket. If it doesn't then the problem is in the hydraulics. Slave to master. This'll get you headed in the right direction.

[BigMike55]

OK... Got her going. The problem was not bleeding all the air out of system. I checked her this morning and had no clutch. I held the lever in and opened the bleed valve. Closed it and gave her 15-20 good pumps. Repeated. I started noticing a little pressure build up. Kept doing this until it was real firm. Buttoned her up and started her up. Took her for a nice brisk ride. Holy guacamole! What a huge difference. It's like a brand new bike. No slipping at any speed, any gear. I've had this bike for 12 years, and I could almost say she's better than new.

Thanks to all who gave advice.. I owe you all.

[bongobobny]

​Yayyyyyyy!!!!!