84 Venture Royale Starting issues and poor gas mileage

[FiDude]

Hello All,

 

I've lived with this problem for a while but figured it's about time I fixed it.

 

I did the DanO starter clutch mod last fall and bike starts and runs etc

 

I've always had a starting problem from the time I bought the bike a few years ago

Have to crank it quite a few times before it will fire up - and then have to "play" with the choke

to keep it running till it warms up and then all is fine.

The choke does not stay at 1500-2500 rpm no matter how much I try - it "slips" back to idleing speed and/or shuts off

the only way the choke will keep the bike running is at 3500-4000 rpm.

The bike runs ok but I can only average about 120-130 miles to the tankfull.

My old bike (Honda V65 Sabre) used to average 225-250 miles to the tankfull ( almost similar fuel capacity - VR=5.8 gals and V65=5.2 gals)

 

I use seafoam on a regular basis - but still have the issue specially when the bike hasn't been started in more than a day.

 

I called a few places locally and they want anywhere from $475-$1000+ (parts and labor - dealer wanted $600 labor and $500+ in parts) to rebuild the carbs

One dealer told me to use "RingFree" ($20) first and run a full tank of gas and then change the oil right after

Has anybody used "Ringfree" and big question is will it actually help resolve my problem.

Or is there an alternative suggestion that might help resolve my problem - other than rebuilding the carbs.

 

Beautiful weather here in Chicago (80's the last 2 days) - hopefully more to come.

Would like to try and enjoy the bike more this season.

 

Would appreciate any suggestion on how to resolve this problem without major expense.

Thanks.

[videoarizona]

Really does sound like a carb problem. Have you checked the diaphrams to see if they are torn? Have you checked the slides to see if they all move at the same time with blips of throttle?

If no, then check out these two areas first. Pull the air cleaner off (is filter clean?) and watch the carb slides with the motor running. Yea, she will run poorly with air cleaner off, but the idea here is to make sure all four slides are working somewhat together. If one is sticking, spray some carb cleaner on the slide and move it with finger to distribute. Make sure all four move freely then run bike again to check. When finished with that, pull all four diaphrams and look very carefully for pinhole leaks. You can repair them with a thin coat of sealant (yamabond#4). Otherwise replace them.

 

If these are good...then add some seafoam to tank in heavier mixture, run for a few minutes then shut down and let her rest for a day or so. Try again and see if there's a difference.

 

If no, then pull plugs and replace with new. Change out gas in tank for fresh. If you haven't replaced the plug wires and caps for a long time, now is the time. You can order originals off of EBay that are setup for proper 5K ohm resistance.

If this doesn't solve problem...then you need to pull carbs yourself and seriously clean them. You can do it and there is plenty of info and pics on this site as well as help available just for asking.

There are other possibilities but these are a good place to start. You should always have a "service baseline" with which to reference when troubleshooting. At least you get these things done and you know they are good and you can move on. Next time you know what you've done and can usually skip those steps saving time.

Good luck and let's see what I forgot as others chime in....keep us posted.

[bongobobny]

Yah!! Sounds like carb problems!! You can try a method called "Shotgunning" the carbs, which is described somewhere here on the site after inspecting the diaphragms. Yes, new plugs and wires, or at least new plugs should be in order. You should be getting over 200 miles to a tank of gas! Maybe the bike has an ignition issue and it has been running on only 3 cylinders since you bought it! They actually do run fairly well on 3...

 

Unfortunately yes, PROPERLY rebuilding the carbs is expensive, even if you do the work yourself! New parts alone run several hundred dollars, and properly reassembling them is an art form in itself just getting the throttles roughly bench sync'ed enough to get them running to properly sync'ed dynamically. You really need to use an exhaust gas sensor to properly set up the richness adjustment properly, or at least use a "Color tune" setup, but once the carbs are PROPERLY all balanced, it really turns these bikes on!!!

 

Sounds like you may have a plugged idle circuit jet on one or more carb's. Besides the main diaphragms, there are separate "little" diaphragms for the choke circuit that also may be an issue...

[Condor]

One of the biggest reasons for poor gas mileage is running on three cylinders. Which these bikes do very well. Personally I'd toss in another set of plugs, and give that a try before attacking the carbs... etc. Also the choke is an enrichment valve, unlike a car where it's nothing more than tweeking the throttle...

[FiDude]

Thanks for the replies

 

I've already changed the plugs

I also checked when changing the plugs that all four "fire" up when cranked

 

I run seafom almost every time I fill up

I've only used the "recommended" mixture - never in higher concentrated dose

I will try using a higher dose

 

I'll search more for the "shotgunning" method you mention - haven't found it yet

is it similar to "shocking" the fuel system for carbon cleanup - as mentioned by the dealer by using the "ringfree" product

Seem to be good reviews about the "ringfree" product

 

Apparently there is no "rebuild" kit for these per the dealer and each part has to be purchased separately

J&P Cycles said there is a K&L rebuild kit ($30 per carb) but it doesn't include the all jets and needles -

but when I looked up the K&L part (18-2592) # it says it's for a 750 suzuki -

Doe anyone know if they are "similar" carbs ?

 

The choke problem is that when I move the choke to about 1500-2000 rpm after it starts and as soon as I let go the choke lever it "moves" away from that position

meaning the actual lever physically moves - it doesn't stay in that position

the only place it will "stay" is around 3500-4000 without physically moving

Almost always the only way to get it started is without using the choke and then use it "after" it has started

The previous owner had some kind of string (looked like a shoe lace) wrapped around the choke lever to "make" it "stay" - looked real tacky

The previous owner lied about a lot of things about the condition when I bought the bike - found (and finding more) out the hard way

I've have been fixing ( making it right) it slowly little by little - I guess one thing at a time - but it is starting to get frustrating

 

I will try the above mentioned suggestions and post the outcome

[yamagrl]

Here's an eBay link. 4 kits for $91.99

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-K-L-86-07-VMAX-CARB-KITS-V-MAX-83-93-XVZ13-VENTURE-VENTURE-ROYALE-/361517049733?hash=item542c186785:m:mauZ9W9kvlN1NnHNO4dUWcA&vxp=mtr

 

I ordered from in in 2014.

[FiDude]

I looked at that item earlier but when I (just to be sure if it will fit/work) select 1984 Yamaha Venture Royale it comes back and says "not compatible"

Even though it says not compatible - is it really the correct thing ?

[BlueSky]

Coudn't it be plugged idle circuits? I would remove the idle screws carefully because each one has a tiny o-ring and tiny washer and tiny spring on the end. Spray carb cleaner into the holes and clean them out. I think that is part of the shotgunning. Try the shotgunning.

[yamagrl]

I looked at that item earlier but when I (just to be sure if it will fit/work) select 1984 Yamaha Venture Royale it comes back and says "not compatible"

Even though it says not compatible - is it really the correct thing ?

When Squidley and I did my carbs in 2014 these are what we used. The difference is the float valves are slightly different in the Mk1s. All of the seals and gaskets were the same.

[FiDude]

yamagrl,

Thank you for the update and info on the gasket kit

How about the jets and needles - do those need to be changed as well or just cleaned out.

If they need to be changed as well then any suggestions on any "kit" for them.

[bongobobny]

OK Did a little searching for you, here's some links on shotgun'ing the carbs...

 

http://vmax.lvlhead.com/tips/shotgun.htm

 

 

http://www.vmaxoutlaw.com/tech/low_speed_carb_tuning.htm

 

http://www.vmaxoutlaw.com/tech/cleaning_pilot_jets.htm

 

That should give you a good start...

[yamagrl]

First off there are some gurus on this site that are absolute Karber-Eighter experts and most of the best advice will come from them.

 

I've read a good bit about the shotgun process Bongobobny mentions. I haven't done it myself but I think I'd try that first.

 

You can probably get by with the existing jets.

 

If you need diaphragms get them here http://www.siriusconinc.com/pro-detail.php?pid=&product_id=3988 and use a guitar pick to install them http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?106129-Special-tool-for-Sirius-Diaphrams

If you decide to go into the Karbs then I recommend buying Damon Farraiuolo's dvds. They are specifically VMax but the differences are minor and apparent (jet sizes and enrichment linkage I think). His engine reassembly DVD is excellent also. I think they are 20 bucks for both.

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=84030

 

Here's a clip. If you buy them say Hi to Damon For me.

 

Heather

 

[bongobobny]

Yah! I have his DVD's and they are LOADED with great information! Hey, anybody that has a complete VMax motor setup to bench test carbs is all right in my book!!

[FiDude]

From what I'm understanding from all the advice/suggestions so far is that the vmax/xvz12/xvz13 use similar parts with minor differences

since whenever I check a suggested part and I select 84 Yam VR (XVZ12) then it says it's incompatible or doesn't show the XVZ12 as a "Fits" choice

but members here are saying they have used those exact same parts on their bikes

Am I correct in that assumption ?

Sorry if I sound ignorant - this is my first attempt at trying to do this.

[cowpuc]

Here is something I have done on many occasions thru the years just to get a bike fired up in an effort to decided whether or not a bike is worth tearing into.. Be warned up front, using this method can result in a need to rebuild the carbs due to the chemical effect Chem Dip can have on rubber parts BUT - it doesnt ALWAYS end that way..

Go down to an Ag Store and purchase the largest syringe they have with a nipple on the end that will fit the small drain tube on your carbs. Those syringes are readily available - bought some at our Farm n Fleet a few weeks ago for a couple bucks. Get a can of Chem Dip - as far as I know this is only available in the 1 gallon dip can. I have many other carb cleaners and only Chem Dip works for what I am talking about. Other stuff may loosen things up but only Chem Dip desolves and opens clogged jets thoroughly..

Center stand your bike, remove the slides from the carbs, open the drain valve on each carb and drain em, fill the syringe with Chem Dip and attach to drain hose on carb, inject Chem Dip into carb until you see Chem dip start to drain from Main Jet (its the port that the Metering Rod on the slide goes into). Close the drain and do next carb. Let them sit for 1/2 hour. Open drain port, pump syringe in and out to agitate Chem Dip in bowl, suck Chem Dip from bowls. Fill syringe with spray type automotive carb cleaner, push carb cleaner into bowls and agitate. Repeat this till all you get is clean carb cleaner returning to syringe. Check diaphrams closely for holes, patch tears or holes with YamaBond#5 (actually should have started here so any patches would be dry and ready for use) - use a light smear of YamaBond on exterior of diaphram.

Close up drains when finished, fill the bowls with fuel pump, start the scoot and see if that dont just beat all!!!

DONT OVER STAY THE CHEM DIP - 1/2 hour is plenty - 1 hour is TO LONG!!!

This can result in needing to rebuild the carbs but if you gotta rebuild em anyway,,, what da heck what da hay - might be worth a shot!!

Good luck!

Puc

[cowpuc]

The previous owner had some kind of string (looked like a shoe lace) wrapped around the choke lever to "make" it "stay" - looked real tacky

The previous owner lied about a lot of things about the condition when I bought the bike - found (and finding more) out the hard way

I've have been fixing ( making it right) it slowly little by little - I guess one thing at a time - but it is starting to get frustrating

 

I will try the above mentioned suggestions and post the outcome

 

Maybe I am misreading this Fi but maybe not so I thought I oughta say something.. The choke lever is held on by one little screw, you might try just tightening that little phillips screw and see if that tightens the choke lever.. If it doesnt, it is possible that someone got cable lube into the mechanism and that is why its not staying where you put it.. If it still wont stay where you put it you might try removing the screw and pulling the lever out, then clean the back of the lever area and mount with carb cleaner real good. If that doesnt work I wonder if you could shim it with a nylon washer - take a couple quick readings with a set of verniers and shoot down to your local Ace Hardware and pick up the thinnest nylon washer you can find - 10 thou would be nice.. Put that shim between the lever and the base and it should tighten it right up.. Worth a try!!

[bongobobny]

The VMax carbs are for all intents and purposes the same carb just jetted a little different...

[yamagrl]

The evolution of the XVZ began with the Mk1 (1200) in 83. In 86 it morphed into the Mk2 (1300), bringing improvements, upgrades. Also in 85 came the Vmax, a high performance 1200.

 

Most of the occurrences where XVZ12 is not listed is due to upgrades. Many of these items were basically the same but subsequent years were improved design and not original to previous versions. Many of these components can simply be installed, such as the shift segment. However some require additional upgrades such as the Mk2 clutch spring system will work on an Mk1 only if the Mk2 engine side cover over the clutch is changed also. Another example is the front brake calipers. They are paired to the respective lower fork tubes... in order to use Mk2 calipers (or even better R1/R6 calipers) you would have to install Mk2 lower fork tubes. Simple enough, but necessary.

 

Often it's easy enough to make the determination by simply comparing the parts diagrams. You can also inquire on this forum. Some of these guys have owned the bikes since 83.

 

The carbs are essentially the same except for some of the jets and the needle valve assy. The Mk1 needle valve assy is different... but I'm certain either could be used as long as the needle and seat is used as a pair.

 

 

On a couple of occasions I have ordered a Mk1 part number to just be safe and the Mk2 to part was sent as a superseded part number.

 

From what I'm understanding from all the advice/suggestions so far is that the vmax/xvz12/xvz13 use similar parts with minor differences

since whenever I check a suggested part and I select 84 Yam VR (XVZ12) then it says it's incompatible or doesn't show the XVZ12 as a "Fits" choice

but members here are saying they have used those exact same parts on their bikes

Am I correct in that assumption ?

Sorry if I sound ignorant - this is my first attempt at trying to do this.

Edited April 21, 2016 by yamagrl

[Prairiehammer]

Concerning the "choke" on the 1984: the choke lever on the 1984 is unique to that year Venture. It is "coaxial" with the handlebar, as opposed to the "under slung" choke of the 1983, 1985-1993. I guess it was an attempt to "improve" the enrichener operation, but apparently it was deemed a failure, because Yamaha went back to the under mounted (under the switch housing) enrichener after just one year (1984). Some folks who have complained of the "loose" enrichener lever on the 1984 have wrapped some friction tape (as a string) around the hand grip, between the hand grip and the choke lever, to tighten up the choke action.

 

Concerning the difficulty in starting; it sounds as if ALL the enricheners are not being opened during the "choking" start. And the poor fuel mileage COULD be a result of one or more of the enricheners remaining open. Check the enrichener linkage to insure fully open on all four when choke is desired AND check that all four enrichener plungers are FULLY retracted closed when the "choke" is off.

[bongobobny]

Yah! Enrichment plungers! That's what I meant by "Little" diaphragms...

[Prairiehammer]

Besides the main diaphragms, there are separate "little" diaphragms for the choke circuit that also may be an issue...

 

The "little diaphragms" on the Venture carbs have nothing to do with the choke/enrichener. The little diaphragms are part of the deceleration enriching circuit. Two different animals.

[FiDude]

https://vimeo.com/163778376

 

Here is what I saw when I had the air filter off

3 of The slides (I don't know if that is the right word for it) move when I give it gas the 4th (right front carb) slide does not move

I can see gas being sprayed when I turn the throttle

I can push the slide and it will slide back when I let it go but will not move when I turn the throttle

I hope all the above is visible in the video

 

Does that mean I have to pull the carbs to fix or is there a simpler fix

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[videoarizona]

OK cylinder #4 isn't getting proper mixture as the slide isn't working. I would take the diaphram cover of that carb, and using carb cleaner.... Clean the plastic slide and corresponding carb chamber... Double check the diaphram is good with no holes and seated in plastic slide. Make sure slide is/was installed properly... It has to be aligned. In other words, it only goes in one way... And there is a tiny hole in bottom of slide that must be orientated properly. @Prairiehammer... Can you find picture for fi showing how the slide is installed? Also a picture of the needle assembly on the slide? Pretty please!!

Thanks!!

 

The choke lever should be friction tight. IE, should stay. Check if spring is to big..... Maybe reduce spring pressure so it stays in one place. My choke lever (89 vr) does not return at all... And it's stiff. I push it on then gradually push it off as bike warms.

[videoarizona]

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?19271-Carb-Diaphram-Replacement

 

Above shows how to replace diaphram but wasn't what I was looking for....

[Prairiehammer]

@Prairiehammer... Can you find picture for fi showing how the slide is installed? Also a picture of the needle assembly on the slide? Pretty please!!