Frame Cracked Under Seat

[DMooch]

First: I'm not that fat. 225 lbs. No passengers on bike in some time. 35k miles on the bike's odometer. Garage kept, but not temperature controlled, on Long Island, NY. Now...

 

While re-installing a freshly charged battery into my 99 RSV, I noted that both sides of the frame are cracked completely through in the piece that the rear tab of the driver's seat would go into. This piece also has two bolts that go into the rear fender, essentially providing almost all the support for anything over the rear tire (rear seat, trunk, saddlebags, etc.). (See attached scan from parts diagram; I can hopefully take and attach an actual image of this part on the bike another time.) I also noticed the beginning of a 'kink' in the right side of the rear fender, apparently due to the stress of the saddlebag support pieces having to carry all the weight from above.

 

Has ANYONE here had this happen to them? Or heard of other's in a similar situation? I'm kinda bummed about the riding season starting real soon and the possibility of no bike for an extended period of time until this is fixed. Plus, I just sent off the insurance premium and registration fees.

 

Welding recommendations (type, process, who can do it)? Difficulties involved (other than getting the fender and related parts off)?

[Brake Pad]

no anwsers, but questions?

battery leaked?

rust spots?

hit by lighting?

trailer hitch support hooked up to any part of it? or lower section of fender?

bubbling paint around that area of frame?

 

 

still thinking, I'll have more

 

 

alot of welders will come to your location, just make sure the paint is removed from that location, and cleaned good.

[pegscraper]

Wow, you really need to lay off the throttle.

 

Seriously, this is the first I've heard of this happening. I don't know what to suggest.

[DMooch]

Brake Pad: Answers to your questions...

 

battery leaked? - NO Leaks whatsoever. Clean, dry, no crud.

 

rust spots? - None in that area (minor stuff elsewhere but nothing frame-integrity threatening in any way).

 

hit by lighting? - No.

 

trailer hitch support hooked up to any part of it? or lower section of fender? - No hitch on bike.

 

bubbling paint around that area of frame? - No bubbling, or anything to indicate a corrosion issue.

 

Pegscraper: Never on the throttle THAT hard where I'm twisting the tubes. Plus, my clutch slips a little so even if I wanted to, I'd be hard pressed to accomplish such a feat!

 

 

ALSO: These breaks have no bending from what I can tell, so when the break happened, it appeared to be a shock to both weld areas, not crack-bend-break. But this may just be the way a break like this occurs in a weld area (I can wrench, but not torch).

[pegscraper]

Jumping then maybe? These aren't dirt bikes, ya know.

[DMooch]

JUMPING?!?!?

 

Crikey! I'm lucky I get this beast off the side stand! Forget about catching air between the treads and the roads!!

[flb_78]

Can you get any actual pics of the damaged area?

[Gary N.]

I don't know if mine is actually cracked or just bent in that same spot. The paint is cracked and the frame shows signs of being bent in that area.

But I hit a car at roughly 50 mph.

[StarFan]

First of all sorry to hear about your problem. Have a question though: Is the piece welded together where the crack is - meaning is the crack in the weld or on the plain tube? If it is on the weld then it is possible that the welding was done inccorrectly and it began cracking little by little. There is also a question if you have had this bike since it was new? If somebody else had the bike before you then it is of cause possible that the previous owner abused the bike or had some kind of a accident. Is there or has there been a salvage title on the bike?

Just speculating on the above, but if I were you I would just tackle the problem without to much of a speculation what was and what could have happened. Just take the bike to a reputable welding shop and have them look at it and advice you on repair and cost. Then simply have the thing repaired and case is closed. I myself am over getting a nervous brakedown when something goes wrong with my bikes. I just accept the problems and fix it or to have it fixed. This is the price we pay having a motorcycle - they simply tend to brake down and need fixing and adjustments from time to time. Like the other day I was going to give my windshield a good thorough cleaning and then some rain repellant afterwards. I opened my workshop cabinet where I keep all my cleaning stuff and took out a bottle of white spirit to clean the greasy salt and road debris from the shield. Made a fatal error and poured Acetylene into the rag thinking it was white spirit and rubbed it on the shield. Practically melted the plexi. Was getting a fit when I suddenly stopped and realised that there was nothing I could do about this. Can´t reverse time. So had to order a new one and decided not to get all strung up about it. Took the windshield to a Plexi shop and had them cut the top down three inches. Felt much better afterwards and am just thrilled to get my new windshield and will afterwards have a tall one and a low one.

Wish you all the best with this issue but I am sure it will all be fine in the end.

[flb_78]

Sorry Flugur, but I disagree. Unless the bike was used for motocross, there should be no excuse for a cracked frame. If it truely is cracked, then Yamaha should cover this even though the bike is out of warranty. This is a safety issue. Shocks wear out, brakes wear out, final drives wear out. Frames should not wear out in less then 10 years.

[Albino Rhino]

... I don't know what to suggest.

I would suggest contacting Yamaha and the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) www.nhtsa.dot.gov>[/color].

[StarFan]

Sorry Flugur, but I disagree. Unless the bike was used for motocross, there should be no excuse for a cracked frame. If it truely is cracked, then Yamaha should cover this even though the bike is out of warranty. This is a safety issue. Shocks wear out, brakes wear out, final drives wear out. Frames should not wear out in less then 10 years.

 

Don´t be sorry. We all have the right to have different opinions and views. This is just the way I would do it - not saying it is the right way. I would have this professionally fixed. If this was a common thing I am sure there would have been some discussions about it.

Of cause there should be no excuse for a cracked frame but I am doubtful that this is a production failure even though it is always a possibilitie. I have a 1998 Royal Star Tour Classic II and the construction of these bikes just yells: Quality - Craftmanship (IMHO).

[DMooch]

flb_78: No pic of area yet, cell phone takes a crummy pic. Will get it out into the light with a good photo perhaps tomorrow or Sunday (stay tuned!)

 

Gary N. & flugur: No accidents, and while I'm not sure of the EXACT location of the breaks, whether in the welds themselves or in the tubing (the future photo will tell), but from what I can recall, I think the breaks are on the smaller piece above the weld points (toward the fender, not the main frame). This small piece in question is attached on one part of an upside-down T that is on the left and right sides of the frame, with the 'cross' part of the T going forward to the 'backbone' (fuel tank support) and backwards toward curves for the swingarm pivot points.

 

To everyone else: I am the 2nd owner, having bought it used from a dealer in 2004. (Original owner had it for 4 years and got a Wing.)

 

I agree with flb_78's comment to flugur: outside aberrant riding (wheelies, motocross, circus tricks, trampoline use, whatever), there should be NO reason for the frame to give way, especially in this area. I would think if it were to do so, a more 'impacted' area would be the steering head or something like it.

 

I'm going to eventually strip down the rear of the bike as much as possible before taking it to a Yamaha dealer for consult on a possible NHTSA complaint. I have to strip it because in it's current state, as mentioned the rear fender is already starting to kink on the right side, and lightening the load is in my best interest for riding it there (under 2 miles).

 

It may be I have to get it welded with no compensation from Yamaha, due to the bike's age. I'm here looking for possible stricken brethren in similar circumstances, and to provide a place for others to now look for a possible weak point in an otherwise very strong and well-made motorcycle. (How many of you have already pulled your saddle and had a look??)

[flb_78]

I also have a 99, mine has 75K on it and I beat on it like a red-headed step child. Usually, the front tire is in the air a couple times a day. I'm going to have to take a closer look-see now.

[Guest Saddletramp]

I'd be curious as to the history of the bike. I can't imagine a frame simply cracking at the welds as you describe.

[V7Goose]

Your first drawing did a very good job of showing where the breaks are located. I really appreciate your posting the information. There may be many other RSVs with the same problem developing but just not spotted yet. I will certainly be looking at mine.

 

The good news is that the location of the broken frame loop is not going to be particularly dangerous - shouldn't affect the handling or alignment of the bike, and the rider's seat mostly sits directly on the main frame so not much danger there. The repair should be simple, even if Yamaha won't do it. I agree that you should contact them first, along with the NHTSA, but if they don't help, at least you can get it fixed and move on without any worries about long term problems.

 

I'd be curious as to the history of the bike. I can't imagine a frame simply cracking at the welds as you describe.

I can absolutely see this happening, especially to a bike that has been overloaded or ridden a lot with a heavy passenger. There is a lot of leverage applied to those points on the frame if the rear trunk is loaded up and a big weight on the trunk rack too. Over time, this constant bouncing would work just like the wind pressure on the fork deflectors that causes those brackets to break off if the rubber bumpers are not pushing against the fork covers.

 

After looking closely at mine - no signs of cracking at all, even after 40,000+ miles with a lot of heavy loads. But examining the general structure of the bike to try and tell what might cause the cracking, I'd suggest you look closely at all the bolts connecting the sub-frames that support the saddlebags and rear fender. If any of those are loose, it could allow extra flexing on that top loop. There does not seem to be any single main support for the rear seat and trunk, just a combination of the top frame loop, the rear fender, and the side loops that are bolted on. Remove both seats and saddlebags, then carefully go over all the bolts to make sure everything is tight. We know a lot of these bikes have a problem with loose bolts when first delivered!

 

I strongly suggest all owners check this - it is easy to do. Especially if your bike is nearing end of warranty!

Goose

[DMooch]

To all: PICTURES ATTACHED

 

Mileage correction: I have 33,594 on the odometer.

 

Break correction: the breaking point is BELOW the weld area (closer to the main frame as opposed to being towards the bracket {see pics}).

 

V7Goose: I've always noticed some flexing while riding, feeling the trunk give a little hop and a squeak over bumps in the road, but nothing where it felt like it was going to shake off. It's never 'off-road', even on hard pack dirt. Strictly paved roads. It's made it from NY to Myrtle and back, NY to DC and back, with no problems on either trip. Else, it's ridden around Long Island and once a week into NYC on nice days. (I avoid known crappy roads in the city, but you can't know them all.)

 

I don't think handling would be affected either, given that the main frame is still fine. It's just this piece that's broken. There are the parts of the rear frame (under the chrome bits on the sides of the rear fender) that attach at points on either side of the rear wheel right above the swing arm pivot which mainly support the fender and trunk, but this piece is what gets bolted through the part that is broken on my bike. Also, there's the saddlebag support/muffler stay underneath. Still, not enough strength there to keep that kink from appearing on the fender.

 

BUT: handling certainly WOULD be affected if the assembly collapsed onto the rear wheel while spinning at highway speed!

 

Otherwise, all bolts are secure throughout the rear of the bike. I have already removed the rear seat, trunk and saddlebags in an effort to lessen the stress back there. The rest will come off once I (hopefully) find someone to take it to, or that can come to me.

 

NOTE ON PICTURES: The gap shown is with the rear seat off, the saddlebags empty (except for tool kit on right side) and trunk with less than 2 pounds of weight in it (ball cap, shades, gloves, rags, paperwork). No other sprung (carried) weight added to the back of the bike.

[Gary N.]

WoW! when you said cracked you weren't kidding. Mine only has some paint cracks in that area but I know the reason too.

It looks like it cracked just below the weld which is typical for a crack to appear beside a weld like that. I would think there had to be some major frame flex for that to happen though. These frames are all welded by robots in the factory so if it was a poor weld I would think there would be a lot more bikes out there with the same problem.

Good luck with your resolution.

[V7Goose]

Did somebody say "cracked?" More like nuclear separation! For that gap to be so wide, the entire rear section has had to rotate down in the rear. Very Nasty! Looks like it has been a while to me.

 

I was not suggesting that the bike was safe to ride with that broken loop (even before I saw how bad it was), only that the problem should not cause any long-term damage to the bike - once the breaks themselves are repaired, everything should be back to normal. BTW - once everything around the break is removed and the the part can be repositioned correctly, any good welding shop should be able to do that repair easily, either at their shop or with a mobile unit.

 

One other thought as to cause - does the bike have a trailer hitch on it? I wouldn't think pulling a trailer would cause much of a problem, since most of the stress is straight back on the sub-frame under the bags, but if the tongue was overweighted, then the bouncing that would cause would certainly put a lot of stress on that loop - even more so than an overloaded trunk. This has given me a lot to think about. I have a cooler rack for my hitch that I have used a lot when touring two-up, but now I am having second thoughts about that due to the weight issue (same as too much tongue weight). Maybe since my 05 shows no signs of any flexing or paint cracks in those areas after doing a lot of touring with a fairly heavy cooler on that rack it is not a big deal as long as all the bolts are tight? Tough to tell, since that kind of vibration induced stress failure rarely shows much before it breaks. I think I'll be a lot more cautious with the cooler now!

 

Thanx again for sharing all this information with us, and good luck,

Goose

[RedRider]

Goose,

 

See post #4. No hitch installed.

 

However, very good input. I will be checking my bolts - as well as the frame loop.

 

Scary.

 

RR

[StarFan]

After looking at the pictures my opinion is that either this bike had some kind of a mishap in the past or it has been heavily weight abused by previous owner. The seperation of the tube below the weld is typical for a welded tube that is under a lot of load/tension. Rarely the weld itself would brake unless it is poorly done. My opinion is that this is not a production failure. See though what Yamaha says and if they do not want to swallow this then have it fixed by a qualified welding shop. I am sure that the tube will be as new once it is fixed. And check the tightness of all the frame bolts to be on the safe side.

Wish you all the best with your issue and I am sure you will be smiling when all is fixed.

[hig4s]

That is incredible. It appears the frame itself broke, not the welds, which a good weld would be stronger than the frame.

 

From the way the frame bolts to the rear frame section, two bolts lower on the frame and two into the section that is broke, I would say check the bottom bolts, if they are loose or missing perhaps that upper tube has been holding all the weight of the fender and trunk all this time. Still I think you would have noticed the day it actually broke.

 

If they are not loose or missing, I would have to believe that the bike was in some sort of accident. How they could have replaced or repaired the trunk and rear end parts without removing the driver's seat and missed that is beyond me.

[Cougar]

I just saw this post while out in my garage and my seat just

happens to be off.. I am so sorry to see that ! Sheesh...

I just snapped a couple myself so you can view these what

it was like before,

 

I use a trailer all the time with my bike..

 

Left , I do notice one rust round spot on mine

[ATTACH]16995[/ATTACH]

and the right

[ATTACH]16996[/ATTACH]

I just can not believe that happened if I did not see

those pics..

Let us know how you got it welded ect..

Jeff

[tomfromhull]

Maybe a support somewhere on the back isn't doing it's job and putting more stress on that part of the bike.

[hipshot]

another "tangent" here.

it might be , that the tubes were cut short,/poorly fitted.the robotic welder, wouldn't see this , and would just weld it like it fit up into the jig.

if the weld didn't penetrate both pieces, then the shorter part, would break below the weld. as you see in the pictures.

i may be all wet here, but it is something to explore.

just jt