Starter just quit

[Dragonslayer]

It had been working fine. Then for no apparent reason when I push the start button, the lights dim the radio volume go's down but no starter. The fuses are good. It's not the start button switch.

 

Before I start tearing the thing apart again does anyone have any hints?

[crowrod]

may be a bad battery ????

[djh3]

First 2 places to look. Battery and ALL the connections. The ones at the battery , then down on block the ground there and check you connections on the starter relay left side low under side cover. If you have a multi meter check you battery voltage too. Has the bike been running lately? Or has it been stored for awhile? Is there water/acid in it? Or capped up and you cant tell. How old is battery?

[cowpuc]

Hows it been starting? How olds the battery and have you noticed it starting hard lately? Could be battery/charging system problems..

If I knew the battery was fully charged, I would probably try a quick jumpering of the starter solenoid just to see if the starter will roll without hesitation - its a quick way to make sure its not the starter.. If it were on one of my 1st Gens I would be taking a close look at the kickstand switch after I made sure some lop eared VR varmint hadnt came along and turned off my kill switch to try and trick me..

Hey Bob,, seems like I remembering reading something about folks having problems with the starter relay on those 2nd Gens.. No idea if they are talking about the actual solenoid that houses the contacts for the amp load of the starter or not.. Seems logical that it would not be so as there as numerous interlocks (like kickstand) involved and I would not be surprised to find out that the "relay" they are speaking of is a relay that services the actual starter solenoid.. Even seems like I read somewhere about someone offering an "upgrade" to that problematic relay..

Regardless,, if you can get to the actual starter solenoid (it will be the one that the large starter cable terminates to) you should be able to hit the input of the solenoid with a jumper wire from the battery and engage the solenoid to make it start (easy way to check the actual solenoid). If that dont work, jumpering across the larger wires should spin the starter and let you know its not the starter and get you home if your stuck somewhere..

Sheeshh,,, did any of that make sense

[Rmar]

Check the kill switch. Mine did the same thing the other day and I had accidently hit the kill switch. Frustrating but it happened.

 

 

 

Ricky

[Dragonslayer]

may be a bad battery ????

Battery is hot

[Dragonslayer]

First 2 places to look. Battery and ALL the connections. The ones at the battery , then down on block the ground there and check you connections on the starter relay left side low under side cover. If you have a multi meter check you battery voltage too. Has the bike been running lately? Or has it been stored for awhile? Is there water/acid in it? Or capped up and you cant tell. How old is battery?

Bike had been sitting but cranked and ran on stand after I went through Carbs. It quit leaving the driveway on first test run after carbs were remounted. Battery is about a year old but is hot.

[Dragonslayer]

Hows it been starting? How olds the battery and have you noticed it starting hard lately? Could be battery/charging system problems..

If I knew the battery was fully charged, I would probably try a quick jumpering of the starter solenoid just to see if the starter will roll without hesitation - its a quick way to make sure its not the starter.. If it were on one of my 1st Gens I would be taking a close look at the kickstand switch after I made sure some lop eared VR varmint hadnt came along and turned off my kill switch to try and trick me..

Hey Bob,, seems like I remembering reading something about folks having problems with the starter relay on those 2nd Gens.. No idea if they are talking about the actual solenoid that houses the contacts for the amp load of the starter or not.. Seems logical that it would not be so as there as numerous interlocks (like kickstand) involved and I would not be surprised to find out that the "relay" they are speaking of is a relay that services the actual starter solenoid.. Even seems like I read somewhere about someone offering an "upgrade" to that problematic relay..

Regardless,, if you can get to the actual starter solenoid (it will be the one that the large starter cable terminates to) you should be able to hit the input of the solenoid with a jumper wire from the battery and engage the solenoid to make it start (easy way to check the actual solenoid). If that dont work, jumpering across the larger wires should spin the starter and let you know its not the starter and get you home if your stuck somewhere..

Sheeshh,,, did any of that make sense

Bike had been turning over and starting. It died out when cold and when trying to restart the starter just quit, suddenly. The kick stand switch seems to be working right. I'm heading to the starter relay to see if I can jump it out to determine if it is starter or relay.

[Flyinfool]

A hot battery usually means it has been putting out a lot of amps.

 

An easy test to rule out everything else on the bike is to connect jumper cables from your car battery directly to the starter (Car not running). Make doubly, triple sure that the bike is not in gear, because you are bypassing every single safety circuit on the bike. If it cranks then the starter is good and you have an issue in some other circuit on the bike, if it don't then the starter is bad and most likely the rest of the bike is fine.

 

Since all of the lights and radio dim AND the battery is getting hot, that means you are drawing a lot of power. It could be possible the the starter cable has rubbed thru somewhere and is shorting to ground.

[Dragonslayer]

A hot battery usually means it has been putting out a lot of amps.

 

An easy test to rule out everything else on the bike is to connect jumper cables from your car battery directly to the starter (Car not running). Make doubly, triple sure that the bike is not in gear, because you are bypassing every single safety circuit on the bike. If it cranks then the starter is good and you have an issue in some other circuit on the bike, if it don't then the starter is bad and most likely the rest of the bike is fine.

 

Since all of the lights and radio dim AND the battery is getting hot, that means you are drawing a lot of power. It could be possible the the starter cable has rubbed thru somewhere and is shorting to ground.

When I say hot, I don't mean the battery is temp hot. I mean it is fully charged at 12.63 volts.

 

I just jumped across battery positive cable to other side of small box mounted on the main fuse holder, ( I'm assuming that is the starter relay) and it fired right up.

 

Does that tell me that the starter is good and the relay is bad? Could there still be a problem in the start circuit interlocks keeping the relay from working?

[bongobobny]

Ummmm, just because a battery is reading full voltage does NOT mean it's good!! You need to take it to Auto Zone, etc. for a free LOAD test to determine it's real strength...

[Flyinfool]

That does tell you that the starter and battery are good and you problem lies elsewhere on the bike somewhere between the battery and the starter.

[cowpuc]

Gotta be a starter solenoid somewhere in the mix,, you can test for voltage at the solenoid with an ohm meter set on DC 12 volt range. Ground one lead to the bike frame or battery neg, probe the input for the solenoid and see if ya got 12 volts when you hit the start button. Have heard of problems on the starter relay on the 2nd gens, no idea if this is a different "relay" then the actual start solenoid but I am thinking it probably is - my guess is there is a relay somewhere that is controlled by all the interlocks in the system - you may have to find and test that in the same way..

[Dragonslayer]

OK Guys, here's where I'm at:

 

Downloaded the Dingy's electrical schematics and electrical circuit info from the 2nd gen tech library. I'm focusing on Page 8-23, Electric starting system and began systematically trying to rule out what the problem aint.

 

So far I know:

1. the battery is good

2 the starter is good, when I jump across the two large red wires on the starter relay it cranks right up.

3. the main fuse is good (30 amp)

4. the ignition fuse is good (10 amp)

5. The engine stop switch is good and in the run position (yes I'm sure)

6. The start button switch is good.

8. The bike is in neutral, the neutral light indicator is on but I have not found and ohmn'd out the neutral switch

9. the clutch lever is out

 

What I'm not sure of:

 

1. The starting circuit cut off relay, where is it and how do I check it?

2. the diode

3. If the starter relay is good or not. With the wiring plug unplugged I would think I should have continuity between the small Blue wire and the small red/white tracer wire if the start circuit is made....... I don't.

 

I've worn my fingers out scratching my head and hoped some , all or one of ya'll might see what I was missing and could point me in the right direction.

 

[Flyinfool]

We can start at the solenoid since you are already there.

For clarity, the start relay is a separate component from the start solenoid. The solenoid is the one with the big wires direct from the battery. Just so we are all using the same nomenclature for clarity.

 

If you connect +12V to the Red/White pin and ground to the Blue pin of the solenoid, it will crank if the solenoid is good.

 

On the wire harness side, if you connect your volt meter from the red white wire to ground you should see 12V anytime the key is on. If you set the meter to Ohms and connect from the blue wire to ground, it should read no continuity, when you push the start button it should read very low resistance. These tests can also be done with a test light.

[bongobobny]

Yah!! If you jumper the starter solenoid and the bike starts and runs, the solenoid is the problem! The starting circuit cut off relay is a circuit that disables the spark trigger for the ignition preventing the bike from being started under certain conditions. On the 2nd gen it is a dual module, I forgot what the other function of the "box" is, but it is about the size of a large flasher relay, and is mounted near the fuel pump if I remember correctly. Had an issue with that unit about 3 or 4 years ago, got it replaced under warranty...

 

So, based on what you posted in post 10, you jumper across the starter solenoid and it starts and runs?? Or, does it just turn over but not run??? What are you jumpering, the two big wires, or the small wire to the big wire??

[yamagrl]

I've been looking at the 99-09 Simplified. You should also have the Wiring Diagram available. I like to familiarize myself and theoretically troubleshoot the issue on the Simplified and then refer to the Wiring Diagram as needed to determine the placement of wires and connectors, etc. so that I can apply what I've figured out to the bike.

 

Based on what you just said, I think you can troubleshoot straight from the "Starter Solenoid".

 

Look at the pic below.

 

With ignition switch on and the "Engine Start Switch" pressed (pink circle)

 

... current should flow from the blue X (by the ignition fuse) through the coil of the"Starter Solenoid " (blue circle) through the"Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay"(*) (purple circle) and through the "Engine Start Switch" to ground. Thus activating the internal contacts (red circle) in the "Starter Solenoid" and in turn engaging the Starter Motor.

 

 

(*)That is: assuming that all of the safety switches are in the appropriate position and working correctly and the "Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay" coil is energized and the internal switch in that relay is closed. In the picture it is shown in a normally open state until all of the safety switches, etc. are in their proper setting.

 

 

...It appears that with the ignition switch on you should have current (12v) on the Red/wht wire on the "Starter Solenoid". So that would mean that grounding the Blue wire would activate the relay and send major current to the starter motor. That grounding is what is supposed to happen normally through the "Engine Start Switch" via the "Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay" provided that all of the related switches are in their appropriate positions and working correctly.

 

With ignition switch on and if you have 12v to the R/W and you ground the L (blue) wire with a jumper to the Neg side of the battery and the "Starter Solenoid" activates and the starter engages then the "Starter Solenoid" is probably OK and the problem is farther down the line. (see below)

 

If the starter does not engage then the "Starter Solenoid" is likely the culprit. This, you can verify by disconnecting both of the R/W and blue wires from their terminals on the "Starter Solenoid" and then connect a jumper from the terminal that the R/W was attached to the positive side of the Battery. Then attach another jumper on the terminal that had the blue wire momentarily to the Negative side of the Battery. If the starter does not engage, it's bad.

 

Install a new one and you're probably good to go!

 

 

If the starter did engage ​then the "Starter Solenoid" is good. It's something else. Proceed as follows:

 

Disconnect the blue wire from the "Starter Solenoid" and with the "Engine Start Switch" pressed, check for continuity to ground. Again, this is what appears to happen when the safety switches are in their proper position and working correctly. If you do not have continuity to ground then you have a problem in the "Starter Circuit Cutoff Relay" or one of the safety switches or the "Engine Start Switch" or it's related ground connection".

 

That BLUE wire just needs to find ground... through the "Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay" and the "Engine Start Switch".

 

 

Good luck.

 

Heather

 

OK Guys, here's where I'm at:

 

Downloaded the Dingy's electrical schematics and electrical circuit info from the 2nd gen tech library. I'm focusing on Page 8-23, Electric starting system and began systematically trying to rule out what the problem aint.

 

So far I know:

1. the battery is good

2 the starter is good, when I jump across the two large red wires on the starter relay it cranks right up.

3. the main fuse is good (30 amp)

4. the ignition fuse is good (10 amp)

5. The engine stop switch is good and in the run position (yes I'm sure)

6. The start button switch is good.

8. The bike is in neutral, the neutral light indicator is on but I have not found and ohmn'd out the neutral switch

9. the clutch lever is out

 

What I'm not sure of:

 

1. The starting circuit cut off relay, where is it and how do I check it?

2. the diode

3. If the starter relay is good or not. With the wiring plug unplugged I would think I should have continuity between the small Blue wire and the small red/white tracer wire if the start circuit is made....... I don't.

 

I've worn my fingers out scratching my head and hoped some , all or one of ya'll might see what I was missing and could point me in the right direction.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Thanks, That is helpful

[Dragonslayer]

Thanks Bobby,

 

I jumping the two larger red wires on the solenoid and it immediately cranks and runs.

[Dragonslayer]

I've been looking at the 99-09 Simplified. You should also have the Wiring Diagram available. I like to familiarize myself and theoretically troubleshoot the issue on the Simplified and then refer to the Wiring Diagram as needed to determine the placement of wires and connectors, etc. so that I can apply what I've figured out to the bike.

 

Based on what you just said, I think you can troubleshoot straight from the "Starter Solenoid".

 

Look at the pic below.

 

With ignition switch on and the "Engine Start Switch" pressed (pink circle)

 

... current should flow from the blue X (by the ignition fuse) through the coil of the"Starter Solenoid " (blue circle) through the"Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay"(*) (purple circle) and through the "Engine Start Switch" to ground. Thus activating the internal contacts (red circle) in the "Starter Solenoid" and in turn engaging the Starter Motor.

 

 

(*)That is: assuming that all of the safety switches are in the appropriate position and working correctly and the "Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay" coil is energized and the internal switch in that relay is closed. In the picture it is shown in a normally open state until all of the safety switches, etc. are in their proper setting.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]105087[/ATTACH]

 

...It appears that with the ignition switch on you should have current (12v) on the Red/wht wire on the "Starter Solenoid". So that would mean that grounding the Blue wire would activate the relay and send major current to the starter motor. That grounding is what is supposed to happen normally through the "Engine Start Switch" via the "Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay" provided that all of the related switches are in their appropriate positions and working correctly.

 

With ignition switch on and if you have 12v to the R/W and you ground the L (blue) wire with a jumper to the Neg side of the battery and the "Starter Solenoid" activates and the starter engages then the "Starter Solenoid" is probably OK and the problem is farther down the line. (see below)

 

If the starter does not engage then the "Starter Solenoid" is likely the culprit. This, you can verify by disconnecting both of the R/W and blue wires from their terminals on the "Starter Solenoid" and then connect a jumper from the terminal that the R/W was attached to the positive side of the Battery. Then attach another jumper on the terminal that had the blue wire momentarily to the Negative side of the Battery. If the starter does not engage, it's bad.

 

Install a new one and you're probably good to go!

 

 

If the starter did engage ​then the "Starter Solenoid" is good. It's something else. Proceed as follows:

 

Disconnect the blue wire from the "Starter Solenoid" and with the "Engine Start Switch" pressed, check for continuity to ground. Again, this is what appears to happen when the safety switches are in their proper position and working correctly. If you do not have continuity to ground then you have a problem in the "Starter Circuit Cutoff Relay" or one of the safety switches or the "Engine Start Switch" or it's related ground connection".

 

That BLUE wire just needs to find ground... through the "Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay" and the "Engine Start Switch".

 

 

Good luck.

 

Heather

Wow Heather, I'm extremely impressed with your response. I believe it will be very helpful in finding that pesky electron gremlin plaguing my current existence.

 

By the way I sent ya a friend request.

[bongobobny]

Yah! What Heather says! Check for 12 volts on the Red/White line, and making sure THE BIKE IS IN NEUTRAL, jumper a ground to the blue line connector, and if the starter turns over, your solenoid is good, and the problem is most likely the starting circuit cutoff relay/fuel pump relay module...

[bongobobny]

What happened with my module is it became detached from it's rubber mount and was dangling on the engine and the case partially melted. It caused some really wild problems, it would intermittently short out causing the oil light and temperature light to simultaneously come on, the turn signals would speed up, and I had this neat feature where you insert key, turn key, bike would automatically start!! Our fine friends at Pioneer Motorsports replaced the module for free under warranty assuming that the module was never properly mounted from the factory in the first place! That module new runs around $100...

[yamagrl]

... know what happens when you hook the battery up backwards?

 

The horn sucks, the radio listens and the lights cast shadows...

[yamagrl]

Glad to be of help. I confirmed your Friend request.

[Dragonslayer]

Interesting, Where is it "starter cut off relay/ fuel pump relay" located on the bike? The fuel pump is clicking when key is on.

I noticed that when key is on, pushing the start button:

 

 

1. radio cuts off 2. lights dim

3. fuel level indicator flashes on and off

4. oil level indicator comes on

5. temp light comes on