1st gen vs 2nd gen clutches

[gaj1917]

A new clutch configuration appeared on the 1987 Ventures, and other Yamaha models at the time. I have a couple of questions - is it superior, AND will it fit into a 1984? I see a few for sale eBay. The 2nd gear issue finally caught up to me, so thinking about upgrading some things while the engine is out and apart.

[Trader]

I think you have the names mixed up.

83-85 are 1st Gen, MK I

86-93 are 1st Gen Mk II

2nd gen are 97 and up.

 

I've had both style 1st Gen clutches..and the only difference I noticed is the 83-85 (MK I) clutch has 6 individual springs where the MK II is a plate type spring.

 

I have redone both types and been happy with both

 

I have no idea about a 2nd gen.

[gaj1917]

I think you have the names mixed up.

83-85 are 1st Gen, MK I

86-93 are 1st Gen Mk II

2nd gen are 97 and up.

 

I've had both style 1st Gen clutches..and the only difference I noticed is the 83-85 (MK I) clutch has 6 individual springs where the MK II is a plate type spring.

 

I have redone both types and been happy with both

 

I have no idea about a 2nd gen.

 

----

I must have had a brain fart! I really did mean MK I vs MK II. Thanks for the response.

[cowpuc]

All my Ventures have been the MK1's and I have never had one with a good clutch.. By that I mean one that held solid engagement when the scoot was fully packed, Tip and I both on the bike and then nailing it at 4 grand in 4th or 5th gear.. On the same token though, I also have never really gone after better springs ( @Skydoc specials), removal of the half plate or tried different aftermarket plate either.. I do know this,, my 89 V-Max hits pretty dog gone hard speed shifting from 4th to 5th when he's up on the ol V-Boost and his clutch always seemed solid.. That said, I am pretty sure that Crude (89 V-Max) has the diaphram spring instead of the 6 little coils and, if I were going thru all the effort of replacing 2nd gear in Tweeks I would definitely consider doing the change over.. It would be really fun to have 2nd gear and a good solid clutch to boot!!!

[gaj1917]

All my Ventures have been the MK1's and I have never had one with a good clutch.. By that I mean one that held solid engagement when the scoot was fully packed, Tip and I both on the bike and then nailing it at 4 grand in 4th or 5th gear.. On the same token though, I also have never really gone after better springs ( @Skydoc specials), removal of the half plate or tried different aftermarket plate either.. I do know this,, my 89 V-Max hits pretty dog gone hard speed shifting from 4th to 5th when he's up on the ol V-Boost and his clutch always seemed solid.. That said, I am pretty sure that Crude (89 V-Max) has the diaphram spring instead of the 6 little coils and, if I were going thru all the effort of replacing 2nd gear in Tweeks I would definitely consider doing the change over.. It would be really fun to have 2nd gear and a good solid clutch to boot!!!

 

Thanks. I think I'll give it a go.

[yamagrl]

I think I read somewhere that the clutch covers are different also because 86-93 clutch spring design requires a bit more room. The part numbers are different on MkI vs MkII

 

 

Item 24 MkI http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1984/XVZ12DL/CRANKCASE+COVER/parts.html

MkII http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1986/XVZ13DS/CRANKCASE+COVER/parts.html

[gaj1917]

I think I read somewhere that the clutch covers are different also because 86-93 clutch spring design requires a bit more room. The part numbers are different on MkI vs MkII

 

 

Item 24 MkI http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1984/XVZ12DL/CRANKCASE+COVER/parts.html

MkII http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1986/XVZ13DS/CRANKCASE+COVER/parts.html

 

The plot thickens. Will follow up on that.

[Yammer Dan]

Ask Skid what happens when you get the clutch to hook up right on a MK1. We did his 86 that I have in the garage now.....

[Condor]

All my Ventures have been the MK1's and I have never had one with a good clutch.. By that I mean one that held solid engagement when the scoot was fully packed, Tip and I both on the bike and then nailing it at 4 grand in 4th or 5th gear.. On the same token though, I also have never really gone after better springs ( @Skydoc specials), removal of the half plate or tried different aftermarket plate either.. I do know this,, my 89 V-Max hits pretty dog gone hard speed shifting from 4th to 5th when he's up on the ol V-Boost and his clutch always seemed solid.. That said, I am pretty sure that Crude (89 V-Max) has the diaphram spring instead of the 6 little coils and, if I were going thru all the effort of replacing 2nd gear in Tweeks I would definitely consider doing the change over.. It would be really fun to have 2nd gear and a good solid clutch to boot!!!

 

When I rebuilt the entire clutch system on my '83 I went with Barnet springs, and never a problem. Hooked up like Velcro.... :-) Now granted I probably didn't come close to tweeks, but I bet I did come close when packed up for a long ride... I'm not as svelte as some riders I know ...

[Condor]

The plot thickens. Will follow up on that.

 

The MkII clutch cover is higher than the MkI. The MKII will fit all years. The MKI's are 83-85 only...

[gaj1917]

Tried the 87 clutch on my 84. With the clutch basket and boss installed, there should be a couple of mm of shaft ribs exposed for holding the lock washer. There are zero mm with the 87 units installed! One of the basket or boss is the culprit I guess.

[Prairiehammer]

Tried the 87 clutch on my 84. With the clutch basket and boss installed, there should be a couple of mm of shaft ribs exposed for holding the lock washer. There are zero mm with the 87 units installed! One of the basket or boss is the culprit I guess.

 

If you used the MKII (1987) INNER AND OUTER clutch bosses, there should have been no problem.

The "shaft" is the same all years. The basket is the same all years. The plates are the same all years. The only difference is the inner and outer clutch bosses (and of course the spring(s)).

[BratmanXj]

Has anyone looked to see if the coil-springs of a Mk1 pressure plate are up-gradable? When I replaced the diaphragm spring on a built RS Warrior with a Barnett pressure plate we replaced the stock Barnett coil-springs with their heavy duty springs since we were still experiencing some slippage.

[cowpuc]

Has anyone looked to see if the coil-springs of a Mk1 pressure plate are up-gradable? When I replaced the diaphragm spring on a built RS Warrior with a Barnett pressure plate we replaced the stock Barnett coil-springs with their heavy duty springs since we were still experiencing some slippage.

 

Was gonna summons @skydoc_17 to this conversation Brat but was able to locate his ad in the classifieds that does a pretty good detailed response to your question.. Someday I may try his upgrade myself just to find out what a good running 1st Gen with a GOOD clutch really does perform like!! Give this a look over - have heard LOTS of great feedback by following Earls path here: http://www.venturerider.org/forum/photopost/showproduct.php?product=61&title=first-gen-mki-heavy-duty-clutch-springs-upgrade-kit&cat=17

[gaj1917]

If you used the MKII (1987) INNER AND OUTER clutch bosses, there should have been no problem.

The "shaft" is the same all years. The basket is the same all years. The plates are the same all years. The only difference is the inner and outer clutch bosses (and of course the spring(s)).

Will have another go at this. I'm losing a mm or two somewhere. I'm quite sure the '87 basket (first boss) is seated properly. If I then insert the '84 boss, I have the shaft exposure I need, but not when the '87 boss is inserted.

[Condor]

Has anyone looked to see if the coil-springs of a Mk1 pressure plate are up-gradable? When I replaced the diaphragm spring on a built RS Warrior with a Barnett pressure plate we replaced the stock Barnett coil-springs with their heavy duty springs since we were still experiencing some slippage.

 

Looks like you answered your own question. Barnet HD springs are available for the MKI's as well. I installed a set in my '83VR and they did the job.

 

Will have another go at this. I'm losing a mm or two somewhere. I'm quite sure the '87 basket (first boss) is seated properly. If I then insert the '84 boss, I have the shaft exposure I need, but not when the '87 boss is inserted.

 

I'm confused?? I thought the question was to replace the disc spring in a MKII with the MKI coil springs since the Barnet does just that. Not replace the coil springs with a disc?? And perhaps?? see if the MKI's will also replace the 2ndGen's???

[gaj1917]

Looks like you answered your own question. Barnet HD springs are available for the MKI's as well. I installed a set in my '83VR and they did the job.

 

 

 

I'm confused?? I thought the question was to replace the disc spring in a MKII with the MKI coil springs since the Barnet does just that. Not replace the coil springs with a disc?? And perhaps?? see if the MKI's will also replace the 2ndGen's???

I think we lost sight of the original question I poised - will a MKII clutch fit a MKI - in my case an '87 in an '84. I'm unable to get a correct fit.

[yamagrl]

Yes. If you have the entire 87 clutch it will fit in an 84. If you do not have the complete 87 clutch then you would need to compare the parts breakdown in order to determine which parts of the 84 remained as part of the 87 clutch.

 

I did a quick comparison on Partzilla http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1987/XVZ13DT/CLUTCH/parts.html

The items that I found different from the 84 (old)in the 87 (new) are 3,6,1213,14,15,17,20 (don't miss this one), 21,23 (Be sure to verify this for yourself)

 

What I did was open the Partzilla 87 clutch breakdown. Individually click on each part. That part will pop up. Scoll down and it shows you the other M/Cs it was used on. Look for 84. Click the back arrow and go to the next.

 

The other thing that is needed is clutch cover. It is slightly wider in order to accomodate the new style clutch. Cover, crankcase 3. Item 24 here http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1987/XVZ13DT/CRANKCASE+COVER/parts.html

[Condor]

I think we lost sight of the original question I poised - will a MKII clutch fit a MKI - in my case an '87 in an '84. I'm unable to get a correct fit.

 

My bad, but now I gotta ask... Why would anyone want to put an '87 clutch in an '84??

[gaj1917]

Yes. If you have the entire 87 clutch it will fit in an 84. If you do not have the complete 87 clutch then you would need to compare the parts breakdown in order to determine which parts of the 84 remained as part of the 87 clutch.

 

I did a quick comparison on Partzilla http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1987/XVZ13DT/CLUTCH/parts.html

The items that I found different from the 84 (old)in the 87 (new) are 3,6,1213,14,15,17,20 (don't miss this one), 21,23 (Be sure to verify this for yourself)

 

What I did was open the Partzilla 87 clutch breakdown. Individually click on each part. That part will pop up. Scoll down and it shows you the other M/Cs it was used on. Look for 84. Click the back arrow and go to the next.

 

The other thing that is needed is clutch cover. It is slightly wider in order to accomodate the new style clutch. Cover, crankcase 3. Item 24 here http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1987/XVZ13DT/CRANKCASE+COVER/parts.html

Yes, I spent a lot of time online comparing clutch parts, '84 vs '87. I have a complete '87 clutch, except the short push rod (on order) and the thrust washer (can one from '84). Bought an '87 cover as well.

[gaj1917]

My bad, but now I gotta ask... Why would anyone want to put an '87 clutch in an '84??

It looks like an improved design, and a sturdier unit. My complaint with the '84 is minor. I've only noticed clutch slippage when pulling away from a standing start on an incline with two-up. I'm not in the habit of coming onto the thing in other gears, so have no clutch slippage complaints there.

[bongobobny]

The usual fix for that on the MK1 is the Barnett Heavy Duty clutch springs...

[gaj1917]

The usual fix for that on the MK1 is the Barnett Heavy Duty clutch springs...

I actually have those, plus the plates. I guess that's the route I'll go, seeing as though I can't seem to make the '87 fit.