Career choices

[Gdub]

I would like to pick your guys brains for some advice. My son is 24. He loves riding and wrenching on his bikes and is considering making it a career. I do some work on my bike but am far from a mechanic. There is no place real close by (northwest ohio) for motorcycle mechanic school and most of them are expensive. The local community colleges only offer auto mechanic classes, but at least he could learn a lot of the basics there. Do you think there is enough of a demand to make a decent living. I would appreciate your thoughts.

[bongobobny]

Sure there is, it's a good honest living! The hard part is getting the experience...

[Great White]

I'd say if he wants to do bikes (and only bikes) I would suggest he'll likely have to move somewhere where it's warm all year round to make a living at it.

 

The guys here are seasonal. Meaning: they work on the machine that fits the season if they want to make a living wrenching. Quads/side by sides - all year round, more in summer. Snowmobiles - winter. Bikes- summer.

 

Most also haul in the small engine stuff to fill in down time. Yard equipment - summer. Snowthrowers - winter.

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that only bikes doesn't work in an area that has a winter season. Not enough people buy them and not enough riding season to make a living at what little there is out there. They have to diversify or die.

 

Just something to think about as Ohio is pretty close to the Canadian seasons IIRC.

 

On the plus side; the schools I know of that have a specialized motorcycle programs are located in those warm places.

 

Or, he could take automechanics, make a living at that and apply those skills in his spare time to build up experience.

 

Bikes are no more complicated than cars, in some cases much less complicated. The basics of power generation and transmission is the same.

 

Once he's made a decent living at automechanics, He can start branching out into a private shop to do bikes on the side. If he finds enough money in it for his satisfaction, he can do it exclusively. Or take a sabbatical after building up a little "war chest" in teh bank account and go do a couple bike courses.

 

I certainty wouldn't put him off working on bikes if that's what he wants, but there are certain limitations to that part of the mechanic trade and he should understand that. It's a "niche" market as far as mechanics go. Small and profit is very elusive.....it's there, but he's not going to make a good cash income in the northern areas without diversifying his skills.

 

Ask yourself how many motorcycle dealerships we've seen open and then close 5-10 years later and that pretty much sums it up. Even the mom and pop private places I grew up with are all gone now. Around here, they've all pretty much died off except for one "mega dealer" that started off as a Honda place and is now an "all brands place (including HD). They just sucked up the other brands as they slowly went out of business....and even they had to switch to selling everything from generators and quads to dirt bikes and street bikes.....

Edited February 10, 2016 by Great White

[MiCarl]

While the very basics of the engine are the same between car/light truck and motorcycle there are some differences. Probably 90% of the bikes on the road are carbureted, and I wouldn't be surprised if they never even mention a carburetor in an auto shop class.

 

Some other things that are quite a bit different:

 

Wheel mounting

Clutch

Chain or belt drive line on many motorcycles

Suspension

Engine/transmission generally being a single assembly outside the Harley world

The shift mechanism is different on a motorcycle

Engine assembly is an entirely different process

Most auto engines have self adjusting valve trains where most motorcycles require some form of manual check and adjustment.

 

That's all without even mentioning snowmobiles and ATVs which tend to also go through a motorcycle repair shop.

 

Having said all that, a reasonably bright person with basic mechanical skills can pick it up by reading service manuals and doing. He'd be well advised to visit some service managers in the area and find out what credentials he'd need to get in the door as some sort of assistant.

[MiCarl]

I have to agree with Great White that the opportunities are better down South except maybe in the Harley world. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the Harley shop near me does a decent winter business installing accessories, performance enhancements and top end rebuilds (which seems to be a regular maintenance item in the Harley world).

 

In my shop we do 90% of our business in just seven months. February is pretty slow..........

[etcswjoe]

I had thought about going back to school and doing the same thing myself.

[Great White]

While the very basics of the engine are the same between car/light truck and motorcycle there are some differences. Probably 90% of the bikes on the road are carbureted, and I wouldn't be surprised if they never even mention a carburetor in an auto shop class.

 

Some other things that are quite a bit different:

 

Wheel mounting

Clutch

Chain or belt drive line on many motorcycles

Suspension

Engine/transmission generally being a single assembly outside the Harley world

The shift mechanism is different on a motorcycle

Engine assembly is an entirely different process

Most auto engines have self adjusting valve trains where most motorcycles require some form of manual check and adjustment.

 

That's all without even mentioning snowmobiles and ATVs which tend to also go through a motorcycle repair shop.

 

Having said all that, a reasonably bright person with basic mechanical skills can pick it up by reading service manuals and doing. He'd be well advised to visit some service managers in the area and find out what credentials he'd need to get in the door as some sort of assistant.

 

Pretty much depends on how you look at it.

 

Principles are the same, execution varies. It's the same in the automotive world from manufacturer to manufacturer. Most motorcycle stuff is just the old way of doing things on cars.

 

Please understand my intention is NOT to tear you down, pick a fight or get into a "mine's bigger than yours thing" here, but to discuss some young lad's possible future.

 

To use the examples you've given:

 

Wheel mounting - tires go on rims just as they always have. The automotive service industry have just automated it more. Tire changers vs irons and muscle power. Balancing MC rims is just the old way cars used to be done before dynamic and road force balancers became the norm. It's a matter of no money in automating the process on MC's for machinery manufacturers. A car tire shop needs to get them in and get them out ASAP to make money, not so much in a MC shop. Not enough profit margin for a MC shop to spend multiple thousands on an automated/power tire changer or balancer either.

 

Clutch. Meh. One is a multidisc wet clutch vs a single disc and pressure plate. Multidisc is to get the size down to MC size and still get sufficient friction surfaces. They both still work on plates, springs and friction material. Automatics are a different thing again, but bikes don't operate on automatics other than a few models (like the old Hondamatic) long since dropped. There are some CVT type bike applications out there though. I won't swear to it, but I think the Spyders use a CVT (like a snowmobile).

 

Chain/belt drive - sure, car's use them inside CVT transmissions, but not really the same thing. Many bikes use shafts same as Automotive applications. Shafties seem to be gaining in popularity these days as well. I guess as the rider demographic gets older, they are willing to trade that last 10-odd percent of performance for convenience.

 

Suspension - swinging arms, bushings and shocks. Same principles, slightly different applications. front forks are the biggest diversion from automotive style suspension, unless you want to talk coil overs and maybe even the McPherson strut. Cut open a standard automotive shock and you'll see either an emulsion type or floating piston, same a a MC shock. There will be washer stacks and valves in both. Expensive car shocks will have external adjustments, just like bikes. Bikes will have progressive linkages, something cars don't unless you get into some high zoot off road stuff. But the principles are all still there.

 

Engine/trans single unit and shifting mechanism. Another example of principles and execution. Crack open any unified case and you're staring at pretty much any standard transmission. Input/output shafts, gears, bearings, syncro's and shift forks. No real parallel in bikes for an auto trans though. Auto's are simple as Pee though, once you learn the basics.

 

Engine assembly different process. Respectfully, that has to be a plain old "disagree". Plain bearing cranks, pistons, compression and oil control rings, thrust bearings, end play, torque sequences, overhead cams, tensioners, valves. ports, water cooling, etc, etc, etc. Every skill you use to rebuild a small block or modern OHC engine is the same. Except the Japanese bikes use weird things like colors and letters to select bearing and such. Sure, you've got the unified engine/transmission to deal with, but it's no more real sweat than putting together any other modern OHC engine. You're just doing an engine and trans rebuild together instead of two separate assemblies.

 

Auto-adjusting valves vs manual. Granted, modern car engines are pretty much exclusively hydraulic lifters/followers, but many motorcycles are also auto adjusting/hydraulic. Heck, I remember the DOHC Honda's in the 750 Nighthawk series (Canada: we got 750's, USA got 700's same with the Interceptor and Magna) had hydraulic adjusting valves back in the 80's. Those that aren't are simply the same principles as older mechanical tappets. Heck, you can even use modern Toyota OHC tappets in any 25 MM tappet motorcycle engine. Like the XVZ12/13/VMX12 engines.

 

Carbs - they taught them when I went through, but that was a fair time ago. Modern bikes will soon be the same way cars are as far as fuel injection vs carbs go. Emissions will make sure of that. Emissions is the same reason why carbs went away of cars and trucks. Carbs couldn't meet the regs. A large number of modern bikes roll off the line injected. I'm not sure if any of the newer, larger bikes even run carbs anymore. Even HD is injected these days....that's saying something right there. I also hate to say it, but he wants to get into a shop where the bikes are all warranty work or new. That means injection will be his bread and butter and it's where the money is. Carbs are older bikes and owners of older bikes tend to be rather.........errrr......"frugal".

 

 

Respectfully, as I said, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything like that. But the VAST majority of an automechanics skills transfer right over to motorcycles. They're cut from the same cloth. That's not to say it's simply walk out of the corner garage, into the local bike shop, pick up tools and start working. Bikes have their own little special subset of skills that need to be learned. But a guy slipping out of automechanics is going to laugh at motorcycle fuel injection or spinning wrenches on anything bike related. An automechanic's trouble shooting skills are also going to be vastly overqualified in a bike shop. from a modern car to a modern bike would be like going "back to basics" for a qualified autotech. Might even be touch lost without canbus until he got his legs back under him with automechanics "101" (IE: spark, fuel, timing, compression, etc)

 

The thing is though, automechanics don't normally cross the line into bikes because it's far more profitable for them in the auto repair industry due to simple numbers and steady 12 month a year work. When a guy's bike breaks, he wants to get it fixed. That falls under "disposable income", don't have to spend it if you don't want to. When the car he depends on to get him back and forth to work breaks, he NEEDS to get it fixed. That falls under get it fixed or default on the mortgage. It also covers the male and female demographic. Pretty much everyone drives a car, not everyone rides a bike. Big difference for making steady work for a mechanic....

 

I was originally a licensed mechanic many many moons ago. 40 hrs a week and more if I wanted it. I also helped out a couple buddies on the weekend in a local MC shop they ran (gave me access their shop, lifts, special tools and whatever parts I needed cheap for my bikes). It was fun and gave me a look into their world. Their profit margin was always razor thin. I always had more disposable income than they did and they paid their mechanics even less than what they had. And they were usually fairly busy when the weather was good.

 

I gave both up and went into university. After i finished with that, I knew I was destined for mechanical work as that's where my god given gifts were (You can drop a bucket of parts in front of me and I'll just put it together and it will work, whatever it is. I'm some kind of mechanical "rain man" I guess.) So I joined the military and started working on aircraft. There's good money in that civvie side (75-100,000+) and the planes are always dry, clean, in a hangar and warm. You do have to travel as a civvie journeyman AME to make serious coin though. That can be a plus or minus depending on the individual.

 

I guess the bottom line in all this is I wouldn't really recommend working on bikes to the OP as an "eggs in one basket" kind of deal. If the lad has mechanical ability, get into something that will pay decent and he will still enjoy.

 

Aircraft mechanical engineer (AME), heavy diesel mechanic, industrial mechanic, etc. Get a good cash base, wrench and ride his own bikes. Or branch out into it when he gets a good cash flow and nice comfortable life established. The skills he will learn in any of the transport disciplines transfer over into motorcycles.

 

Well, the diesel and aviation applications much less. But then again, once diesel or Jet A-1 gets in your blood, it's hard to want to do anything else......

 

I've always looked at MC wrenching as a retirement thing once I'm winding down, pension is coming in and I'm looking to stay busy as much as supplement the income.That's not to say a living can't be made at it, it's just not a living I woudl want and there are so many other better paying jobs out there for a lad with mechanical ability....

Edited February 11, 2016 by Great White
spelling

[Gdub]

Sure there is, it's a good honest living! The hard part is getting the experience...

 

No doubt it's a good honest living. Working with your hands can never be over valued in my book. I see the wisdom in moving further south to get year round employment. The same thing has happened here that has happened around you Great White. There are only two dealerships of any size except for two Harley dealers. The others are Mom and Pop and not many of them.Are there any schools that stand out above the others?

[BlueSky]

One way to look at it. Your job probably won't be outsourced to China or Mexico.

[uncledj]

I always tell the young folks I run into that if you're gonna get your hands dirty for a living, it doesn't get much better than what I do.

(Commercial / industrial HVAC {sometimes refrigeration} service). Best to get a Union gig, but not the only way to go.

Pay scales vary, but generally 60 -100 k per year, a fair share of freedom, respect, and a decent pension / retirement waitin' when you're done.

I've been around a bit before I committed to this trade...it was a good move.

Just sayin'.

[Great White]

No doubt it's a good honest living. Working with your hands can never be over valued in my book. I see the wisdom in moving further south to get year round employment. The same thing has happened here that has happened around you Great White. There are only two dealerships of any size except for two Harley dealers. The others are Mom and Pop and not many of them.Are there any schools that stand out above the others?

 

I've been out of that loop so long i wouldn't know where to suggest. Nearly 30+ years now. My auto course was just done at a local vocational school and my apprenticeship was at a local garage.

 

I would start with making school recruiting contacts, requesting literature, etc.

 

I know when I went to university, I could access school rankings based on academic curriculum, achievement, job success, etc.

 

I'm sure if you dig around, there must be a similar ranking scheme out there somewhere. Dig, don't just believe a schools "ad hype".

 

It's all about getting your lad hired on somewhere when he's done. He needs the best chance he can get (ie: good school on the resumé) as there are always experienced journeyman out there these days looking to snap up a job....freaking lousy markets.

 

You're also going to want to know what he needs post formal education to achieve journeyman status. IE: apprenticeship periods, testing, licensing, etc.

 

A lot of that is differnt for us here province to province. I'm not sure how it works state to state....

[cowpuc]

Gdub,, hope this ain't to lengthy or boring of read,, if it is just take a red marker and "X" it off brother LOL

 

Your son's desires sound remarkably familiar.. At a very early age (while still in the womb ) I had exactly those desires,, all I wanted to ever do was work on bikes,, I LOVED EM!! Got out of High School and went to work spinning wrenches part time for our local Honda dealership (worked full time in a machine shop too). Got laid off in my full time job and went to work at a local Kawasaki/Hodaka dealership full time and spun wrenches part time at the Honda shop too. Was hard pressed to make a decent living spinning wrenches on bikes, applied for apprenticeship in the Trades (Boilermakers). Ended up welding for them and making GREAT bucks,, love for scoots never died though. Bought a house, won a new Harley, lots of Motocross toys for cash,, fell in love with Tippy and got married, had kids and the enjoyment of life on the road with the Boilermakers went south.. Found out that not much had changed in the back room employment with the bike shops - could not feed my family, took a position in Maintenance at a shop. Still dreamed of working on scoots and of owning my own bike shop with the hopes of actually making a living that would support a wife and 4 kids.. Went back to college, 4 year degree in Management.. Opened our shop in 86.. Learned the hard way the ends and outs of making a living fixing other peoples motorcycles = there was WAY more money (and a LOT less frustration - think about this = people coming to you with a broken bike are already unhappy while people coming to look at buying a real pretty ready to ride scoot are always smiling - make sense?) in buy/sell and in doing "restores".. In mid 90's went STRICKLY buy/sell with a LOT of restore sales. Those little hard tail Honda Mini Trails were a HOT item - 5 grand a pop and up for a nicely restored 68/71.

Was able to raise my family on the business, did not get "rich" dollar wise on the business but made a good living and met some AWESOME people - even lost a couple of my "buyers" in the 9/11 attack - some of those Mini's became "Honda's Under Glass" for office display's. Had one Commercial Banker who bought over 30 bikes from me (not all for him) and even did a little business with a Professional Football player who wore a Super Bowl ring from playing with the Patriots - pretty cool really..

Learned to study market trends and follow business "cycles" (no pun intended ) thru my college experience and it was INVALUABLE to my business. CT90's became the hot sell,, we dropped the Z50 restores and did CT's, on to old school MX Bikes.. Then the chopper craze started and we built old school chops and later a LOT of old Harleys and Indians.. My kids got older and my second born daughter became the best carb mechanic you ever did see (this kind of stuff is where I found REAL riches by working on bikes),, took some of those skills and her LOVE for math (got her brains from Tip), went thru Med School and is now a Doctor (way beyond my mental capacity). WHAT A BLAST!!

Throughout that whole experience I got to know all of our local name brand dealership owners on a first name basis (called Networking - GOOD SKILL TO LEARN!!). A couple of them were sending us customers who had needs their big shops could not fulfill. The "backroom" was always where my true love was at so I also got to know most of their mechanics on a first name basis. Most of those shops had a real problem keeping good help, due mainly to the difficulties associated with the financial side of keeping a business running thru the winter months. Thru the years (and this is a shame) I noticed that our local Harley shop was one of the few that maintained a well trained staff. I know most of their shop guys have been thru "Harley School" and the good ones stay busy and make a good living to this day. Even though we are in Michigan (and right on the western lake shore where FlyinFool dont stop dumping snow until late March or early April) where the ride season is fairly short - those mechanics do stay busy year around..

So,, all that nonsense said,, how would I answer your question:think:

If he is REALLY wanting to work in a bike shop backroom and heart set on making a career out of it in modern bikes and has the advantage of having an opportunity to begin schooling in Automotive (nothing wrong with that) I would advise Automotive Electronics. Hit it hard and dont look back, be the best of the best!! These fly by wire Harleys with programmable tuners operating everything from ignition timing to injector pulse rates and the people who understand them are the future IMHO. Maybe find a bike shop that he could spin a few wrenches in while attending school and watching the ads for a Harley Dealership looking for people and willing to send him thru HD School.. May have to move though..

Another approach is working on his own, buy a repairable, fix it and resell,, the old buy low/sell high and expand on the middle routine - still VERY doable but it takes a LOT of hustle being self employed.. If he decides to do this I still think that a good Business Degree is priceless (even a 2 year Associates from a Community College) - understanding business and learning how to operate in the business world will pay off many times over.. Hardest part of this is understanding local markets, if Mopeds are all the rage - ya do Mopeds, Quads ya do quads and so on..

Sheesh I wrote a book , can ya tell I LOVE yapping about this stuff ,,,, give your son a hug for me and tell him ol Pucster understands

[Gdub]

He is interested in other things besides bikes, but that is where his passion really lies. It sounds like it would be a good idea for him to take some local auto mechanic courses and see where that leads. Great White, thanks for sharing some real life experience. Gives me something to chew on.

[Gdub]

Cowpuc you always make me smile when I read your posts. Thanks for the encouragement.

[cowpuc]

Cowpuc you always make me smile when I read your posts. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

Your welcome my friend,, anytime!!

[djh3]

OH man I will probably get whacked on this deal but here goes. I have been working as a instructors assistant @ our local college in the auto technology course. I have had 2 batches of "introduction to auto mechanics" students. You can not teach mechanical skills IMOP. If a guy dont have the skills he will struggle. He might learn enough to change his own oil and keep his rig going, but being a tech is a world different now then when I came up thru the ranks. WAY WAY more electrical knowledge and understanding is now required.

Even down here in Fla where we ride year around shops are doing more and more work on the side by side things and jet ski. I looked into going to work at a shop not to far from me, fair pay (not what I think a guy with 40 yr mechanical experience shhould get) When I initialy talked to the HR person we talked about hours, and what days etc. Some shops you are expected to work 5.5 days. So not much time for riding or much else. From what I have seen you are right the pay courses are expensive. MMI and the like. A friends son graduated last year from whatever one is in Daytona last year. His "bonus" when he graduated was he had a good start on a set of tools. 4 moths after graduation he had like 2 offers for like 8-9 bucks an hour.

Auto wise a dealership is probably where the money is. But I dont think I could work in one. I would say I am a mechanic and fabricator. I have worked on aircraft and race cars too long to be in a dealer. I enjoy making and fabrication to much. But you talk about a hard industry to get into, racing is it my friend.

[MiCarl]

I own a motorcycle repair business. Let me paint a scenario for you:

 

I hire someone trained at the best auto mechanics schools, all the ASE certifications etc. He puts a tire on a kid's GSX-R, kid leaves the shop and takes off down the freeway doing a wheelie at 180MPH. Kid loses control and wraps himself and the bike around the nearest immovable object. When they pry the bike loose and pick up the pieces of the kid they find the receipt from my shop in his pocket.

 

Mom is distraught, her baby is gone. Her lawyer sues me, sues Suzuki, sues the tire manufacturer and a dozen other folks I can't even imagine. When we get to court it comes out that my mechanic does not have the credentials to work on a motorcycle. Guess who the fall guy will be?

 

I absolutely will not hire a mechanic that does not have the credentials to work on a motorcycle.

 

In Michigan they make it easy for me - it's illegal to work on a motorcycle for pay unless you pass the state test and get the state license. They give me their license and I post it on the wall in the lobby.

 

This is why I suggested he visit some shops to find out what credentials they look for. It won't matter what he knows if he doesn't have the entry pass.

 

It is not generally a lucrative career. There a few that make some decent money but most don't. Last I checked the average was about $17/hour. If you manage to work year round that'll get you about $35K.

[syscrusher]

Alright, now to hear from a guy who knows nothing about working in a bike shop. It's pretty short compared to what Puc wrote though so don't doze off. Basically it sounds bleak working on metrics and such, maybe even Hardleys. The shops that at least appear to be making money are the ones that turn out custom designs based on the plethora of parts available for American made V-Twins. I'm not sure what sort of CYA measures you'd need to take such as MiCarl mentioned but the folks who are really ready to spend big are the ones shopping for one-offs, something flashy and unique. The kind of bike that gets riden to bike nights and poker runs around the city and cover 500 or less miles per year. Maybe have a little side business renting out a few basic stock models, maybe even ones you've restored, especially if you're near an area that people would travel to to tour around on a bike. Jackson, WY is a good place for this. People fly in and rent a bike to ride around Yellowstone and the Teats while they're in the area.

 

Otherwise it's an alright hobby to have when you're home from your day job, you know, the one with job security and good pay.

[BlueSky]

A motorcycle business cycles more than the economy in general. When things get tough, spending on toys goes away first.

 

We all deal with career choices. I grew up in a small town in NC (like Mayberry) and went to work at the local plywood mill. Hard work for not much pay. The draft forced me to decide on joining the Army. Afterwards I went back to school and got a chemical engineering degree. Back then, textile plants were all over NC, SC, and GA. I interviewed for jobs and got offfers in that industry. Luckily, I also got a job offer that I accepted at a utility working in their nuclear engineering dept. I can't say I've been ecstatic about my career choice. But, it has paid for a good living. The textile industry in the US went away.

 

My son was a bad student and floundered around for a while getting into a little trouble. He worked as a busboy, cook, pizza delivery guy, and then bought a couple of turntables and taught himself to scratch records. He had found something that inspired him. He then asked me to support him through a 12 month school called Full Sail in Orlando, FL to learn how to become a music recording engineer. Afterwards, he got a job as an unpaid intern at a recording studio in Manhattan, NYC. He worked really, really hard because he loved what he was doing and now he is a major recording star's recording engineer. You saw her perform at the half time show at the super bowl. His work has gotten two grammy nominations so far.

 

My Ruskie stepson was a disciplined, very intelligent student who has a passion for computers. He got a degree in Computer Science and is now working for a company writing computer programs. He loves his job and they have treated him really well.

 

My daughter now is a very intelligent underachiever. She is still trying to find her place in the world. Not sure what will happen there.

 

Everybody has to choose their own path. It's always different depending on the person's interests, opportunities and what will pay the bills. I wish the young man great wisdom in his choice.

[bongobobny]

Yah! The point being do something you have a passion for!!

[cowpuc]

Yah! The point being do something you have a passion for!!

 

Hear Hear!!! "WHAT A RIDE" trumps I WISH I WOULD HAVE:checkeredflag:

 

Gonna start a petition for Sir Bob to change his name from BongoBob to BINGOBOB

[BlueSky]

Yah! The point being do something you have a passion for!!

 

If it pays the bills. If it doesn't pay the bills, get a job that pays the bills and follow your passion as a hobby!

[Larry1963]

I would like to pick your guys brains for some advice. My son is 24. He loves riding and wrenching on his bikes and is considering making it a career. I do some work on my bike but am far from a mechanic. There is no place real close by (northwest ohio) for motorcycle mechanic school and most of them are expensive. The local community colleges only offer auto mechanic classes, but at least he could learn a lot of the basics there. Do you think there is enough of a demand to make a decent living. I would appreciate your thoughts.

If he is a good certified mechanic and he loves it yes there is. In Ft. Scott KS, is the HD school. My daughter went there and I was going to take the HD motorcycle classes. I know it is far from home but I believe Wiregrass down here in GA has a good school.

 

My thing is find something that you love doing so you never have to work a day in your life. Plus education is a good thing, any quality education is good. So even if he goes to motorcycle college, and ends up working on diesels trucks later in life, or pushing a desk, what he learned there can be applied to other faucets of life.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.