1st Gen rear Brake Question???

[Zzyzx]

I'm working on a 1983 VR I picked up a few weeks back and need some advise on the rear braking system.

 

The bike sat for a while and the rear brake fluid reservoir was 99% dry as the hose reservoir had a hole in it.

I replaced the hose, filled the reservoir with fluid and started bleeding the lines.

 

Started with the left front and got lots of air out of it then and was surprised to get a solid pedal.

Started working on bleeding the rear but could not get anything out of it.

I got the solid brake pedal after bleeding the front but could not get any air or fluid from the rear.

 

Here is the question.

It is possible the rear valve prop is just clogged?

If so is there any way take the portioning valve apart to clean out the entire valve or should I start looking for a replacement?

 

Thanks for any help with this one.

[cowpuc]

You try bleeding from the banjo at the rear caliper Zzz? I would start there just to make sure I wasnt messing with a plugged orvice in the caliper first..

[Zzyzx]

You try bleeding from the banjo at the rear caliper Zzz? I would start there just to make sure I wasnt messing with a plugged orvice in the caliper first..

 

Hey Cowpuc, I had already removed the banjo completely from the caliper to see if there was anything blocking the in the caliper and got nothing thru the line

[MiCarl]

Before I went after the proportioning valve I'd pull the line completely off and make sure the line itself isn't plugged. I've run into that from time to time.

[cowpuc]

Sorry to hear that Zzz, was hoping this would be an easier one - ratss. IMHO, next step would be to follow Carls advice and check the line itself. Seems we are chasing the problem right back to answering your question concerning the proportioning valve itself. In answering that question of whether or not it could be the valve, indeed it seems very possible that the valve is plugged and is the source of your issue. I have never had an issue with that valve (knock on wood) so I have no idea whether or not it can be taken apart and cleaned - if it were mine though I would at least give it shot before looking for a replacement valve BUT - check the line as Carl mentions first and we will :fingers-crossed-emoits just a plugged line!!

[Zzyzx]

Okay, I guess tomorrow I will remove the line from valve to caliper and see if it is the issue.

If it is clear I will take the master assembly off and see if I can clean the valve.

Will update as to how it goes.

Thanks Puc and Carl.

[cowpuc]

Okay, I guess tomorrow I will remove the line from valve to caliper and see if it is the issue.

If it is clear I will take the master assembly off and see if I can clean the valve.

Will update as to how it goes.

Thanks Puc and Carl.

 

You bet Zz, wish I could be more help. Looking forward to hearing about what you find!

[GeorgeS]

An old 83 , you do not know how many years it has been since ALL the Calipers have been Rebuilt ????????

 

I think to be on the safe side if you are actually going to ride that old bike, that a complet " Rebuild " of ALL the Brake Calipers is In order !!

 

Or I would seriously consider Replaceing ALL of them. There are couple of Experts, on this subject on this web site, that can supply you with the proper parts !!!!!

 

GOOD Brakes = Long Life of the Rider !!

[Yammer Dan]

Sorry to hear that Zzz, was hoping this would be an easier one - ratss. IMHO, next step would be to follow Carls advice and check the line itself. Seems we are chasing the problem right back to answering your question concerning the proportioning valve itself. In answering that question of whether or not it could be the valve, indeed it seems very possible that the valve is plugged and is the source of your issue. I have never had an issue with that valve (knock on wood) so I have no idea whether or not it can be taken apart and cleaned - if it were mine though I would at least give it shot before looking for a replacement valve BUT - check the line as Carl mentions first and we will :fingers-crossed-emoits just a plugged line!!

 

It can be taken apart and cleaned!! I don't like saying this because so many are ready to jump and say "Ya cain't play with brake parts stupid!" I have taken these things apart and very carefully cleaned them and put them back togather and they are still working. Skid remember when I told you I was having brake trouble with Sugar not long after I got her?? Same thing. I couldn't get Rear to "feel" as I thought it should. Good carefull cleaning and she is still going. Clean the metal parts with a good brake cleaner but I don't let that get on seals. Remove seals and clean with brake fluid!! And I have taken a seal from a old "parts" wheel cylinder and used it in the one I was working on. Just be very carefull with those parts and if you do damage a seal its time to start over.

[Yammer Dan]

Sorry to hear that Zzz, was hoping this would be an easier one - ratss. IMHO, next step would be to follow Carls advice and check the line itself. Seems we are chasing the problem right back to answering your question concerning the proportioning valve itself. In answering that question of whether or not it could be the valve, indeed it seems very possible that the valve is plugged and is the source of your issue. I have never had an issue with that valve (knock on wood) so I have no idea whether or not it can be taken apart and cleaned - if it were mine though I would at least give it shot before looking for a replacement valve BUT - check the line as Carl mentions first and we will :fingers-crossed-emoits just a plugged line!!

 

It can be taken apart and cleaned!! I don't like saying this because so many are ready to jump and say "Ya cain't play with brake parts stupid!" I have taken these things apart and very carefully cleaned them and put them back togather and they are still working. Skid remember when I told you I was having brake trouble with Sugar not long after I got her?? Same thing. I couldn't get Rear to "feel" as I thought it should. Good carefull cleaning and she is still going. Clean the metal parts with a good brake cleaner but I don't let that get on seals. Remove seals and clean with brake fluid!! And I have taken a seal from a old "parts" wheel cylinder and used it in the one I was working on. Just be very carefull with those parts and if you do damage a seal its time to start over.

[Yammer Dan]

The thing is know a little about what you are working with and if it don't look as if you could trust it with your life don't use it!!!

[cowpuc]

It can be taken apart and cleaned!! I don't like saying this because so many are ready to jump and say "Ya cain't play with brake parts stupid!" I have taken these things apart and very carefully cleaned them and put them back togather and they are still working. Skid remember when I told you I was having brake trouble with Sugar not long after I got her?? Same thing. I couldn't get Rear to "feel" as I thought it should. Good carefull cleaning and she is still going. Clean the metal parts with a good brake cleaner but I don't let that get on seals. Remove seals and clean with brake fluid!! And I have taken a seal from a old "parts" wheel cylinder and used it in the one I was working on. Just be very carefull with those parts and if you do damage a seal its time to start over.

 

You da man @Yammer Dan!!

Actually I KNEW one of you lop eared varmints had to have been there done that at sometime or another - it was just a matter of time before ya responded!! Thats what I LOVE about this place, collectively there seems to be NOTHING on these scoots that has not been dismantled and rebuilt at some time or another - GOOD LORD I LOVE THIS PLACE!!

 

Hey Dan, bumped into this thread (click here ya lop eared varmint = http://www.venturerider.org/brakes/ ) while searching for an answer for Zzzz. Wondered if our buddy Rick may be onto some of the reason for your accident last spring.. Take a peek and see what ya think.. By the way, EXCELLENT piece of work @Rick Butler :clap2:

[Zzyzx]

Rear brake mystery solved!!!

 

Took the rear master cylinder off the 83 this morning and removed the portioning valve.

Took the end cap off and removed the internal parts that could be removed,

Found that the two union bolts, one for the banjo that goes to the rear caliper hose and the other for the valve assembly, were both blocked solid with what looked like the junk from the bad reservoir hose that deteriorated from inside out. Most of the internal parts of the valve, spring, cap and valve tip, also have this buildup of goop. Everything was so blocked up the fluid could not get into the rear brake line.

 

Cleaned all the metal portioning valve parts out in acetone and emptied the master of all old fluid then blew the old fluid out the brake lines. Bleed the system a couple of times and all is good now, everything seems to be working like it should.

Will know more once I get the bike together enough to test ride it.

 

I've attached a few pictures of what I found.

Thanks for the assist on this Scott, Carl and Dan.

 

[cowpuc]

Rear brake mystery solved!!!

 

Took the rear master cylinder off the 83 this morning and removed the portioning valve.

Took the end cap off and removed the internal parts that could be removed,

Found that the two union bolts, one for the banjo that goes to the rear caliper hose and the other for the valve assembly, were both blocked solid with what looked like the junk from the bad reservoir hose that deteriorated from inside out. Most of the internal parts of the valve, spring, cap and valve tip, also have this buildup of goop. Everything was so blocked up the fluid could not get into the rear brake line.

 

Cleaned all the metal portioning valve parts out in acetone and emptied the master of all old fluid then blew the old fluid out the brake lines. Bleed the system a couple of times and all is good now, everything seems to be working like it should.

Will know more once I get the bike together enough to test ride it.

 

I've attached a few pictures of what I found.

Thanks for the assist on this Scott, Carl and Dan.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]102820[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]102821[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]102822[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]102823[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]102824[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]102825[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]102826[/ATTACH]

 

GOOD ON YA Z!! :clap2::dancefool::dancefool::thumbsup::thumbsup: That right there is what I am talking about brother!! Glad you got er done and THANK YOU for posting this up!!

One never knows when one may encounter such a malady - makes one wonder if your conclusion might oughta should go into the 1st Gen Tech library so if another lop eared VR varmint did encounter such a thing the answer would be easily found:178:

@Freebird, @Eck, @Marcarl = what do you think?

 

Either way Z,,, CONGRATS on another JOB WELL DONE!!

[Zzyzx]

If you want this on 1st Gen Tech Talk I can put a step-by-step doc together and add a few pointer arrows to some of the pictures.

I'll start working on the doc later today either way just in case someone else needs this fix.

Do all 1st Gen's use this brake proportioning system?

[Zzyzx]

An old 83 , you do not know how many years it has been since ALL the Calipers have been Rebuilt ????????

 

I think to be on the safe side if you are actually going to ride that old bike, that a complet " Rebuild " of ALL the Brake Calipers is In order !!

 

Or I would seriously consider Replaceing ALL of them. There are couple of Experts, on this subject on this web site, that can supply you with the proper parts !!!!!

 

GOOD Brakes = Long Life of the Rider !!

 

Great advice George.

The forks have been upgraded to an 86 model with progressive springs and the calipers were replaced with a pair of rebuilt R-1's.

The rear appears to be in good shape and after making the repairs on the pro-valve seems to work fine but, I will be changing pads and anything else needed so it is safe.

Thanks!

[Yammer Dan]

Silver has that Mod Puc which is another reason I was scratching my head. I can't find a good reason. I should have been able to stop! I didn't!!:think:

[cowpuc]

Silver has that Mod Puc which is another reason I was scratching my head. I can't find a good reason. I should have been able to stop! I didn't!!:think:

 

Maybe it was just not adjusted to your "feel" Dan O'.. The way I read that post of Ricks - that particular valve is fully adjustable? You know what, after reading thru that link a couple times, I began to my beaner too wondering if that valve could replace the one on our 1st Gens.. I have never owned an 83/84 whose rear brake I really cared for as I always had the opposite end of the spectrum compared to your experience on Silver = I have yet to have one that I could lock up at will.. People who would ask me about my brakes I always retorted with "what brakes,,, this thing is suppose to have brakes?"

[Freebird]

Moved the post to the tech library. If you do another that you feel is better, I'll replace it. Either way, thanks so much for the contribution.

[cowpuc]

Hey Z, I have not had dealings with the later model (MK 2) Ventures so I looked up a 93 online and indeed, it appears that Yamaha used that valve all the way thru 93..

THANK YOU for doing what your doing!

[Yammer Dan]

Have read and reread everything on that Puc. I didn't stomp the rear and had the front to where I could grab a handful if necessary without locking it up?? Something went wrong. I'm not one to panic in a brake incident but?? I used to lock up the 650s and 750s just to give folks a scare. Slide to a stop and watch them run trying to see what was gonna get them!! I just don't have a answer and its still eating at me. If I screwed up fine. I can handle that but not being able to figure it out.......:bang head: Closer to hanging it up than I been in a while. I try to keep it out of here and not dwell on it but???

[cowpuc]

Have read and reread everything on that Puc. I didn't stomp the rear and had the front to where I could grab a handful if necessary without locking it up?? Something went wrong. I'm not one to panic in a brake incident but?? I used to lock up the 650s and 750s just to give folks a scare. Slide to a stop and watch them run trying to see what was gonna get them!! I just don't have a answer and its still eating at me. If I screwed up fine. I can handle that but not being able to figure it out.......:bang head: Closer to hanging it up than I been in a while. I try to keep it out of here and not dwell on it but???

 

Have you checked that valve/linkage area out closely on the scoot? Possible ya picked up a stone or something that caused some strange braking effects, or even oil on the road.. I have had some weird things happen on bikes brother, stuff that had me my head too - usually though I have been able to come to some conclusion as far as what happened. Had a friend go down beside me on the road one day, one minute all is fine, next second he was down.. Got turned around, went back to help him pick up the pieces. Tried to figure it out and finally discovered a different shade of color on part of the road, walked over to it and it was SLICK like ice.. Smelled the stuff and it smelled like cutting oil from the bed of a lathe or something - really strange too cause you could barely see it on the road.. We came to the conclusion that a chip hauler had left a small trail of fluid from his load on the roadway.. REALLY REALLY WEIRD!!

Tossing in the towel is your choice bro - would NEVER look down on anyone for making that choice. Plus you KNOW, just like all the other folks who have gone to a different breed of a steed, or cagin for that matter, that YOU will ALWAYS be a part of us and always be wanted/needed around here.. I am just THRILLED that you made it thru like you did - you out of ol Pucster!! Looking forward to seeing you in 2016 whether you show up in a trike, bike, car or whatever!!

[Yammer Dan]

Something on road surface comes closer than anything I can grab holt of. Like differences in pavement. Bridge was blacktop with the squares of grid showing and then a change of the blacktop as if it had been repaved. I don't remember but locking the rear would not have upset me. Why did it (Highside)?? With the rear already sliding and seeing that I wasn't going to get stopped I would have grabbed a handful of front. BUT I had adjusted it til it was almost impossible to make it lock up. Don had it adjusted somewhat in that direction and I took it a little further. Again a but comes to mind- when checking this front it was never with the rear locked up ?? Could that have made this system lock the front as quickly as it seems it did???

I ain't quitting Bro. Just mouthing off. This one skeered me for some reason. One being the people in that horsepital that hurt me. I don't want to wake up in another like that!!! Dropping Silver got me 3 broken ribs they told me. The day of accident I was lying in bed checking to see how sore I was and planning how to get bike home and being pissed that I was missing MD. That night was a story from hell. I left that hospital with 12 broken ribs, a broken shoulder, a broken clavical, a busted head and a flail chest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I ain't quitting

[Yammer Dan]

Hey Zzyzx. Didn't mean to steal your thread. How did the brakes come out?? It sounds as if you have one of the better set-ups there. Working good now?

[Zzyzx]

Hey Zzyzx. Didn't mean to steal your thread. How did the brakes come out?? It sounds as if you have one of the better set-ups there. Working good now?

Came out good Dan

Did removed the Pro-Valve and cleaned everything.

I posted pictures in a earlier post follow on this thread.

Thanks for the info.

Z